"If a man proposes to a woman..."

Yes I've heard of that hadith before..or rather some lectures but I think it goes in hand with something that I've heard before like a man may marry a woman for four given reasons..not in order necessarily..but just four important reasons such as her beauty, wealth, piousness and good character..? and I would think the same thing applies to woman vice versa. Then again piousness is very important whenever choosing..and I will repeat: I personally think this option (piousness) will supercede all the other options because once you find a pious person then you will find beauty.....

Sr. Halima,

I agree with your entire post except for the line quoted below:

format_quote Originally Posted by Halima

I personally think this option (piousness) will supercede all the other options because once you find a pious person then you will find beauty.....

Here I have to disagree (the underlined part). There is a distinct difference between spiritual beauty and physical beauty.

Men in particular are very visual creatures and physical beauty plays a major role. So many people have potential matches based on religiosity, but if there was zero physical attraction, and the question came as to whether they should marry without that attraction, I personally would say a definite no(!) because marriage is not something that's done only for the religion or as a brother said in a blog I read recently: 'Marriage is not community service'.

Don't forget that marriage is a means to keep ourselves away from fitnah and zinaa, and it sort of fails that purpose if you marry someone who you aren't attracted to at all, being men we'll still face the same fitnah when we go outside our houses; being men it's not in our control, men are naturally attracted to beautiful women, it's a fact of life. I'm not sure if I'm articulating this clearly, but do you get where I'm trying to get at? Marry someone because you want to marry them and are attracted to them and want to enjoy physical intimacy with them. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever, which brings us back to what Imaam Ahmad is saying. He realizes what kind of creatures men are and thus directs his statement to them saying that ask about beauty first because few men would marry if they didn't find the sister attractive even if she might be awesomely pious. It's better to look for beauty first and then religion because if the former is ok for you, then your decision is based on the latter, which is ultimately the most important factor. Whereas if a person were to inquire about religiosity and is ok with that, and finds there's a complete lack of attraction, he'll reject the sister based on the factor (i.e. beauty) that is lesser in importance.

Women tend to hold less weight in physical beauty because they have different needs. They're more likely to marry someone less attractive than themselves if the man was confident, compatible etc. Not saying they're ok with someone not attractive to them at all, but generally they're more open to compromising in the 'looks' department.

Jazaka Allaho khairan Akhi Ameeeeeeen

Normally the criteria for selecting matrimonial mates are many: wealth, beauty, rank, character, congeniality, compatibility, religion, etc. The Quran enjoins Muslims to select partners who are good and pure (Tayyib).

"Women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity."(Quran 24:26)

Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) recommended Muslims to select those partners who are best in religion (Deen) and character.

"A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, for her rank, for her beauty, and for her religion (and character), so marry the one who is best in the religion and character and prosper." (Bukhari and Muslim)

Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) assured the bounty of Allah to those who wish to get married and live a pure and clean life.

"Three groups of people Allah obliged Himself to help them: Mujahid in the cause of Allah, a worker to pay his debt, and the one who wants to marry to live a chaste life." (Tirmidhi)

http://www.islamicfinder.org/articles/article.php?id=277&lang=english

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad

I'm not sure if I'm articulating this clearly, but do you get where I'm trying to get at? Marry someone because you want to marry them and are attracted to them and want to enjoy physical intimacy with them. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever, which brings us back to what Imaam Ahmad is saying.

I agree with your post dear respected brother but I guess I never really realized how significant beauty is in the scheme of things. Don't get me wrong I understand that beauty is important but I would've never guessed that it would mean significantly important to the majority of brothers which is fine.. because there are still many sisters that are not aware of its significance. Not here or there..but in the ummah today. Believe it or not! Some might automatically assume that oh well just as long as I am pious that will cut the cake but now I realize thanks to you that this is one of the elements taking into consideration for spouse hunting. So I do understand where you are trying to get at..even though it is not such a complex matter if you think about.

format_quote Originally Posted by Halima

I agree with your post dear respected brother but I guess I never really realized how significant beauty is in the scheme of things. Don't get me wrong I understand that beauty is important but I would've never guessed that it would mean significantly important to the majority of brothers which is fine.. because there are still many sisters that are not aware of its significance. Not here or there..but in the ummah today. Believe it or not!

I guess to keep the discussion going..I want to just add based on my understanding of this topic..is that beauty (or attractiveness) of a person can be put into roughly two headings. There is an attraction that's person-to-person basis, i.e. someone that some people of the opposite gender find attractive as opposed to an attraction that's by general consensus, meaning that most people of the opposite gender would find that someone attractive.

Basically what I'm trying to get at is, it's not an issue of beautiful vs ugly, rather its who you and I find attractive. Sometimes we may get someone who's attractive by general consensus, and sometimes we get someone who we ourselves are personally attracted to but lots of other people wouldn't consider 'beautiful', at the end of the day it doesn't matter because it's relative and it's not like we'll be showing off our spouse to everyone else. So to connect back to my previous post, the beauty i was going on about isn't something that's by a set standard, there's no set definition of what measures 'beauty', it's very much on a person-person basis.

Some might automatically assume that oh well just as long as I am pious that will cut the cake but now I realize thanks to you that this is one of the elements taking into consideration for spouse hunting. So I do understand where you are trying to get at..even though it is not such a complex matter if you think about.

Yes, it definitely is one of the elements. In Surah ale-'Imran Allaah says that love of desires has been beautified for the people, and He lists what has been beautified, and the very first on that list are women. So tying back, it's relative. My point isn't that sisters should abandon piety and focus on beautifying themselves, no. Piety is undoubtedly the key. Rather my point here is that by being a woman you are already beautified to us in general, and keeping that in mind, what br. x finds attractive (physical) is probably somewhat different to what br. y will find attractive, and what they all find attractive (spiritually, if they're practicing themselves) is a sister that's pious. So again in terms of physical attraction it's all relative.

for some interesting scans >> click here <<

Not sure of the exact reference

according to link I posted, source is Islamqa

jazakallahu khair for sharing.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad

Don't forget that marriage is a means to keep ourselves away from fitnah and zinaa, and it sort of fails that purpose if you marry someone who you aren't attracted to at all
[...]
Women tend to hold less weight in physical beauty because they have different needs. They're more likely to marry someone less attractive than themselves if the man was confident, compatible etc. Not saying they're ok with someone not attractive to them at all, but generally they're more open to compromising in the 'looks' department.

agreed with that.. to expand on that i would like to point out that physical attraction my be important for women... not as near as men, but none the less still there just for the simple fact that it helps to lower the gaze as you mentioned.... i mean if she marries someone shes not attracted to, she may also not be able to lower her gaze, or perhaps feel jealous that other women have more attractive husbands then hers, etc...

so i think its important to that the girl chooses someone she finds attraction as well, to keep the Iman "on track"...

After reading the comments on this thread, I understood the quote in the way most people did. While reading it for the first time though, I interpreted it differently. I took it to be a sort of way to safeguard the woman from getting her feelings hurt.

If a man approves of her religion, but then when it comes to her beauty, changes his mind, that's bound to hurt her emotionally. She could start having self esteem issues, even if she'd been perfectly fine before, on account of his rejection merely because of her looks.
But if she knows that religion is the aspect that she was lacking in, then it won't be so bad, because unlike beauty, religion you can improve on. Of course, one can always try their best to be well groomed, healthy, etc., but ultimately there's a limit to how much you can improve your looks. With religion however, the sky's the limit. And his rejection could actually help her improve herself islam wise, give her a wake up call of sorts.

^^^ i interpreted that too... and i even told to one of my staff. lol