Problems in society hindering Marriage

format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*

That's a bit extreme what you said at the end, that he would think that way. I personally don't see anything wrong with it if it's done in a respectful way and I don't think there's anything against it as long as no fitnah is involved as outlined in the link I sent. You can make du'a but you still have to put the effort in making contact/proposing whether through yourself or through someone else like your mother, sister, etc.

Assalamualaikum,

sorry for bringing up this thread again. However, I have a question regarding this sister at my workplace.

I just don't get enough courage to look at her, because it's not allowed for us to look at other gender. Lately we crossed our ways at work but I immediately lowered my gaze. So the issue is, I even don't know whether she is interested our not. When you would look or say salamalaikum, you would get some impression out of the reaction. But this is not possible. I am just to shy to look.

Even I don't know nothing about her. Even I don't know how she exactly looks. But for some a reason, I have a feeling. Even I lower my gaze, it gets stronger. That's the problem, I don't know NOTHING, just a stranger to whom I never spoke before. Maybe my feeling is wrong.

I mean let's say I find out her wali's number, he will think I am insane, I guess. Stranger calls stranger, to ask for hand of daughter. Of course I wouldn't propose marriage to her before I spoke to her in front of mahram, but this is so strange, it feels so uncommon, because I am not experienced in such things. I just fear the consequences of my behavior.

What when I get rejected? People and she will think I am an idiot. I know, I shouldn't care about other people as long as I don't make Allah angry, but I'm still human.

Opinons are welcomed.

format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*

Walaikum Asalaam,



This is not true. Her reaction would not indicate any interest in you, even if it is a positive one. You really will not be able to tell nor should you assume anything.

Ok, you're right with that.

WHy would her father think you're insane?? How else do people get married there? If anything, a man who is able to do that on his own receives a lot of respect because it's not an easy thing to do but it's a very honorable thing to do. Most men can't even do it that way.

I don't know what your culture is like, but you can have your father call her father, or your mother call her mother. It would even be better if there was a mutual person who knew your family and her family. The rest will happen on its own. Don't care too much about what anyone thinks. Honestly, no one really criticizes as you think they do. Marriage is a part of life. No one is experienced in it and it's always awkward. It's just a chance you have to take. Just because a girl rejects you doesn't mean anything about what she thinks of you. I've rejected many proposals and I never thought anything negatively about them, and most girls are like that as well. You can also always pray istikhara. But stop beating yourself about these little things. You gotta get over it and just try!

I think most people get married by they get introduced to someone. There is no one I know knows her family, as I told, she is just a sister at my workplace to whom I never talked to or saw before.

We've a lot of brothers at work, may be I can ask whether they have an idea, how to get in touch with her. May be another sister at work can approach her and find out if she is married or is interested in getting married. I think that can work out. We've sisters at work that could be figuratively speaking my mother and I know even their son. Do you think it would be inappropriate to ask her whether she can find out anything about her?

I think I will just try, more than a "no" I can not receive. People commit zina and have no shame in telling that, I try to do something with barakah and build a family inshaAllah.

btw: Just being interested in her doesn't mean anything, I mean I don't know anything about her. So when I know her a little better and I think she is not the right person, I could still say no. But I think I fear this part most, rejecting people is harder than being rejected I guess.

barakAllahu feek

wasalama

format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*

You could do that. You could also ask the son to ask his mom for you which would probably be better. I don't think it's inappropriate. It would be your best chance to know more about the girl without having to talk to her directly or put yourself in an awkward situation.

Unfortunately, I don't see this brother anymore and have no opportunity to contact him. Otherwise, of course that would be the way I would go.

Please speak some dua for me. Allah is all hearing.

This is a poor OP post.

It is not the fault of the Ulama here at all. So not a wise decision to blame the ulama for our own short-comings.

I do need to ask how often have you personally met the ulama and interacted with them? When I say that, it means to meet face to face and sitting down having a meal at times.

Because through my own life, I have been around with Ulama that even compromised of graduate of Al Azhar (old schooler) and literally his friday sermons deal with contemporary issues. They have certainly made my life a lot easier even though I am not married at this level.

The true fault is on the hands of the people that follow the society's norm and cultures. I know in and out of the society, when I say that I personally have been seen and came across the cases of dark side (not some but many). Often those who went down the wrong road end up blaming others, a point comes they even blame Allah rabul 'izza (ilyazbullah min zalik) some even hate themselves and end up committing suicide. Yes i know these cases as well.

We live in a tough world now, where sins are easy. We have night-clubs in our own hands which is the smart-phones. When we can not even protect our own hearts from ill thoughts, then please do not expect some scholar to come over and insulate your heart from the poison that it hoards.

Yes it is difficult to obtain from sins, but it is NOT impossible. There are people who I know live in high end societies where sins are easy to be get into, but they are well disconnected from the society's norm.

The people of cave, who are mentioned in Surah Kahf, were not some poor class people. But they belonged to well respected families, but the norms of the society pushed them to leave and take refuge in a cave. I did not find anywhere in tafseer where these people of cave blamed the scholars for making life difficult. The state was such that if someone did not go by the society's norm (to be brief it was similar but bit worse than nowadays) they would treat the person badly.

Isn't this the state nowadays?
What is funny, when someone tells you the restrict use-age of mobile phones. We, ourselves, say 'How can we? its a necessity.' - Then end up using the wrong way, and then blame someone else for the reason of sin.

When a Scholar advices you to block images on the internet by having image blocker, we say 'How can we? its a necessity.'
When a Scholar even advices you to quit the job which we also know can end us up in sins, we say 'How can we? its a necessity.'
...etc etc

I guess we do need to blame our own nafs, maybe it will knock something in our heads. When we point a finger, there are three fingers pointing back.
Maybe if that Scholar which is being blamed here on this thread is the Nafs, then I re-tract my post and agree with you.

We really do need to man up and accept the responsibilities. There is not a need to feel ashamed if we need to go against the today's norm such as leaving out technology or materialistic equipments.

p.s I have also seen scholars who do not bother what others are up-to, because they know then they advice in modern terms we brush them aside. Its more of disrespecting them.

format_quote Originally Posted by BurningHeart

This is a poor OP post.

It is not the fault of the Ulama here at all. So not a wise decision to blame the ulama for our own short-comings.

I do need to ask how often have you personally met the ulama and interacted with them? When I say that, it means to meet face to face and sitting down having a meal at times.

Because through my own life, I have been around with Ulama that even compromised of graduate of Al Azhar (old schooler) and literally his friday sermons deal with contemporary issues. They have certainly made my life a lot easier even though I am not married at this level.

The true fault is on the hands of the people that follow the society's norm and cultures. I know in and out of the society, when I say that I personally have been seen and came across the cases of dark side (not some but many). Often those who went down the wrong road end up blaming others, a point comes they even blame Allah rabul 'izza (ilyazbullah min zalik) some even hate themselves and end up committing suicide. Yes i know these cases as well.

We live in a tough world now, where sins are easy. We have night-clubs in our own hands which is the smart-phones. When we can not even protect our own hearts from ill thoughts, then please do not expect some scholar to come over and insulate your heart from the poison that it hoards.

Yes it is difficult to obtain from sins, but it is NOT impossible. There are people who I know live in high end societies where sins are easy to be get into, but they are well disconnected from the society's norm.

The people of cave, who are mentioned in Surah Kahf, were not some poor class people. But they belonged to well respected families, but the norms of the society pushed them to leave and take refuge in a cave. I did not find anywhere in tafseer where these people of cave blamed the scholars for making life difficult. The state was such that if someone did not go by the society's norm (to be brief it was similar but bit worse than nowadays) they would treat the person badly.

Isn't this the state nowadays?
What is funny, when someone tells you the restrict use-age of mobile phones. We, ourselves, say 'How can we? its a necessity.' - Then end up using the wrong way, and then blame someone else for the reason of sin.

When a Scholar advices you to block images on the internet by having image blocker, we say 'How can we? its a necessity.'
When a Scholar even advices you to quit the job which we also know can end us up in sins, we say 'How can we? its a necessity.'
...etc etc

I guess we do need to blame our own nafs, maybe it will knock something in our heads. When we point a finger, there are three fingers pointing back.
Maybe if that Scholar which is being blamed here on this thread is the Nafs, then I re-tract my post and agree with you.

We really do need to man up and accept the responsibilities. There is not a need to feel ashamed if we need to go against the today's norm such as leaving out technology or materialistic equipments.

p.s I have also seen scholars who do not bother what others are up-to, because they know then they advice in modern terms we brush them aside. Its more of disrespecting them.

Let me start off by saying i could be very well wrong here, but unless you show me where im mistake in my analogy, i will most likely not change my opinion about what i have said.

Firstly, you said its our own short-comings, not the ulama. Lets apply this to reality (specifically the example about marriage and revolving around the norms of arab muslim culture).

• Initially, a boy or girl grows up not learning anything about sexuality or sexual relations from a trusted source untill they hit puberty. By then, these teens have no prior tarbiya that properly addresses this topic an no discipline about it. They receive very little information about what and how they are suppose to handle those feelings just as they are transitioning into the rebelliousness phase. Then they do actually rebel against what they have been told thinking its not a big deal due to the shallow amount of info they got about it and eventually fall into sin. Boom! they automatically become blame worthy when the recipe in of itself obviously invites disaster. How is that a fair judgement?
• And the ones that dont fall into sin. They are told that marriage is the only halal way to have a female partner or friend. But at the same time, they cant get it because it requires you to be able to support a family and be financially stable. So we look into that and we find that all the world including the arab and muslim regions have adopted the west's style of working and getting a job. First you have to get a high-school degree then college then masters ... We try to look into that and we find that to achieve all this will take at least 25 years to accomplish. Not only that, but the institutions where such titles are obtained are all filled with free mixing situations and what not. And in the end, the teen is still blamed for falling into sin when he is put into a situation which virtually make it impossible for him not to. Again, how is this a fair judgement? I know that some of you will say " well they should have done such and such to speed up the process and what not" but id ask ... Were do you expect these young kids who are full of energy to have the patients and mentality to think like that? We cant even trust them with their own lives, let alone expect them to have the mindset to think 10 or 20 years ahead?

People consistently think that just by putting image blockers or such and such will help them not fall into sin. I personally believe that all these things are useless. Because the foundation of why these actions need to stop (in the hearts of many) are lost in the first place, and in other cases people are far too engulfed into these sinful action that its too hard for them to get out even after they gain the proper foundations that would otherwise help them not fall into sin. We think that just by providing little things like that, it would resolve everything when half of the other stuff is 1000 times worse and more effective. [for example: You imply that phones are one of the major gateways to fitna. I agree with you, but you also imply that we should not have them but people justify having them claiming its out of necessity. I hate to say it but they are right in that it is a necessity. You are the one who is belittling its importance. Major leaders of the arab world have allowed many of the system of the west to seep through into out culture such as the current educational and job systems yet they expect us not to use any of the nessesities that would require us to engage in these systems that grants us a living.] What im trying to say is ... Why expect us "the people" to not fall into sin when the leaders themselves allow western systems which promote the tools almost like the gates of sin into their lands? Why do we people get blamed for using it when its the only method to earn a living? Why do people get blamed for the failures of the leaders who do not provide a halal means to earn a living? ... And you know whats the funny part? i dont even blame the leaders cause their case is similar to most people. They get their knowledge from those who have it ... our scholars, who dont pass their knowledge in a correct way that wouldnt allow their knowledge to be misinterpreted. Nor do they focus on provide the masses with an effective and more halal alternative. Instead, they allow the muslim world to incorporate systems of the west that promotes things which also opens up the gates to sin, yet command us not to fall into these sins when its one button away from us while the halal is $10000 worth of mahr + walima + new apartment away ...

You said there is no need to feel ashamed to turn our backs on the nerms of today, but id ask you this. Do you really think its about shame?
Because i personally believe its much more than that. Its about how effective these norms are compared to the impractical requests of these scholar. At least when they pass a prohibition ruling on something, they should at lease suggest a halal alternative that is as practical as the one which has been prohibited. But no, we just like to make things 100 times more difficult for people then claim its their fault for not following the scholars. It just doesnt work like that.

I just want to note that im not referring to those 500+ year old scholars like Imam Shafi or Imam Malik (RA). Im simply referring to the modern scholars who we barely hear anything about let alone know about their alternatives to the things they deem haram and forbid (that is if they came up with such alternatives in the first place). but im willing to wager that they haven't because if they have come up with something that is very effective and halal at the same time you would have seen it catch on where most of the muslim people would use it. Similar to anything that is effective and easy to use, just like portable communication devices, the internet, cars, school systems and much more. Im not saying these things are perfect cause they arent. But at least they solve major problems that would otherwise hinder our development as a nation.

All in all, i think that its wrong to blame the entire umma for something that is completely out of their hand. They are brought into a world were the haram is almost a necessity to do, else they would fall and crumble to the point where they would become homeless or even worse, completely give up on their faith from all the hardship it causes them ... half of which arent even real ruling in islam but bad scholars would prohibit things just to avoid saying i dont know and not to fall into sin of permitting something that may be doubtful.

Of course not all scholars are like that, nor are all modern scholars. And it would be wrong of me to claim that if i did (i hope that i didnt). Its just that, in my mind, the umma today is a perfect reflection of what the leaders and scholars produced, and what our ancestors have left behind. So again, no i do not believe it is the sole responsibility of the umma ... We shouldnt be afraid to question and look into the mistakes of our respected elders and improve over their achievements or rather, lack of, in this case. We need to change the path that we are being led through because its doesnt seem like it has any light in the end. And we aint gonna change if all the scholars and leaders do is blame us for trying to earn a living without providing a practical and halal alternative means for us.

@ChosenTCO

Your echo of concern is worth a praise here.

There are few things that need to be clarified tho, firstly isn't the first madrassa or house of tarbiya of a child is home? in other words their parents? The question is, do we blame the scholars in this regard for parents not sending their children for short time to learn about ethics, manners, deen and so forth? A scholar really can not force a parent to send their child their way or forcefully change the way of the parents who do not concern about deen. But they can inform as their job, and I guess they have been doing this for ages.

Regarding the leadership and scholarship, it has remained a history until now that they both have conflicted at times but not always. Where at times of leaders have employed so called wrongful scholars to justify their actions while the true scholars have remained a minority and less voiced. Some examples are like of Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal (rah), Imam Malik (rah), Imam Sufyan Thawree (rah) and so forth.

I can understand your point on how Arab have gone off to do something similar, true scholars have continued to remained persecuted when they challenged the leaders of the time. Prime example would be of Egypt and Al Azhar coming under the government rule. While in the Central Asian region, after the downfall of Ottoman Khilafa, countries like Uzbekistan faced a backlash where true Scholars were persecuted and wrong ones came down to major posts. In the sub continent region, we can take the example of students of Shah Wali ullah Muhadith Dehlawi (rah) and the times of resistance of Scholars with the British rule. Similarly after Ottoman Khilafa went down, and Mustafa Kamal Ataturk came it was not long that he forcefully changed the mode of Adhan. Can not forget Omar Mukhtar (rah) and the Libyan resistance.

But then, if we do look critically in this aspect. Who trusted these leaders while these true scholars were being persecuted? It was us people who did. And now we can understand why there is a sense of regret within us for having done this, it is the consequences we are facing for turning our face away from true scholars.

I, personally, have grown up in Arab country with Arab friends around my life. Having seen through these things, there is a need to accept that the next Arab generation are careless about Islamic scholarship. Literally it is out of their head to even think if someone would want to learn the traditional islamic sciences (but not all). Usually the Arab mothers (of our previous generation and are alive) are religious, but they some are not doing their part in informing their children and doing the tarbiya. Last ramadan I spent in with my Arab friend, I was shocked that he informed me that many of those I knew were close to me in my school days are turning towards atheism. I did try personally to begin a halaqa to get the importance of deen going with friends, it was going well but it stopped, maybe when I will be spending the next ramadan I may insha-Allah try again.

Certainly these technology advancements are important for the nation to grow. But that has to be used when it is time, and when it is not the time then we have to keep it away. When I speak of technology, I usually target things that are connected to Internet such as smart phones and laptops. I am not saying it is haraam to use them but they are strong tools to put the nafs into the wrong place.

When we are using them wrongly, even if Scholars today inform it is haraam to watch wrong things and so forth. The scholar has done his part of informing, the next part is our job to stick away from it. I understand the situation is tough that we feel compelled to get into it, but that shows our own weakness towards the nafs and our lack of intelligence to act smartly to understand where one can manage to be save in managing to fall down the trap.

Lets take an example, a scholar advised that whenever you are using your laptop or desktop then do it infront of everyone. And bi iznillah I am doing this, and things are on the safe end al hamdulillah. The question is, people just do not want to fight their nafs in acting upon these advice, it seems tough to do and why is that? because it hurts the nafs. Even I was advised to keep my mobile phones open, and to be used by anyone. And frankly speaking I have leave my mobile right in the hands of my mother if I am home so that can she look it up whenever she wants and see what is the history on there to keep a track.

Initially it is tough, hurts the nafs but you got to put the willpower to get the grasp of it. People can put their sweat and blood to fulfil their wrong desires, why can we not at least put some sweat or at least the struggle to push ourselves to finding means to be on the safe side?

Sorry I will stop here do not want to go really long. Not my last post, but I will try to just make this my last discussion on this forum.

Just few questions if yo do not mind.

Are you implying scholars advocate the idea of earning before marriage? I believe the scholars have already long said marriage is easy, but it is made hard by us people by including things that are not even necessary aren't they?

can you give me an example where Scholars do not allow certain things but do not provide an halal alternative?