Problems in society hindering Marriage

Assalamu Alaikum

format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

The simplest example I can offer is to look at the problem of marriage and premarital relations. How many times have we seen new things that immerge which promotes and simplify premarital relations (i.e. porn, one night stands, dating apps, pickup artists)?

To give any importance or take influence from which is clearly haram will yield you problems no matter how many halal options you have. The issue with marriage comes from culture/customs not Islam. If Muslims in general give precedence to their culture over their deen then of course finding a suitable partner in the confines of Islam will be extremely challenging because they are not following the deen correctly in the first place. For example, the parents will be increasing the mahr because culture tells them that for their daughter to be happy and secure, the man has to be rich and of a certain ethnicity. The girl, also going along with her parents, will want a nice big fancy wedding, because it's all the rage. And the guy, even though the signs are clear this is NOT a pious family, will groan about never finding any suitable girls, except for the fact that these are the only type of girls he is ever actually interested in because he never takes in account all the actual important qualities that a suitable wife should have since he gets his pointers from those who engage in premarital relationships. See where I'm going with this? This is not an issue of "Islam" or "islamic community"...We are in the age of easily finding Islamic knowledge. We shouldn't wait for someone to "teach" us anymore. I'm not saying that dawah should stop, but rather that we all have an obligation to seek knowledge of our religion. You will find that if Muslims had been knowledgeable and pious, marriage would be extremely easy. It would be like..oh these two people love each other? Bam. Married.

And how many times have we got things from scholars and Islamic leaders that help the youth get married and encouraging it? When was the last time you’ve seen as scholar asking parents to lower their standards of potential spouses for their daughters?

There are many scholars who encourage the youth to get married. However, I would never suggest to any parent to lower their standards for their children. If you're speaking about lowering the mahr, then sure. If you're speaking about redirecting their standards to be more islamic based, then definitely, but I wouldn't say lower standards.

When have you seen the umma provide apps or methods for the young muslim girls to background check their potential spouses?

Is that what's hindering women from getting married? Apps with background checks?

When have you seen Islamic leaders help the muslim men with their mahr for marriage? And if there are, why aren’t these things being promoted just as much as the haram things and warnings about them are?

Why would islamic leaders be obligated to help men with the mahr? You are your own man who should be able to work and provide for your future spouse. One of the biggest issues with many muslims, especially those who are looking to get married, is that they put absolutely no effort in themselves. They don't improve their characters, they don't actually learn the deen properly, they don't have any patience, they don't trust in Allah's provision; they are still very immature.

Yes there are those who genuinely cannot find a suitable spouse, but sometimes marriage is not in everyone's destiny and that's ok. Being able to accept your situation, make du'a, still feel grateful, and continue to be patient is what matters in the end.

You see yourself in an environment which is incompatible with Islam, but what type of environment do you think the people were in pre-Islam? It was far worse than it is now, and Islam was the cure, and it's still the cure.

format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*

Assalamu Alaikum



To give any importance or take influence from which is clearly haram will yield you problems no matter how many halal options you have. The issue with marriage comes from culture/customs not Islam. If Muslims in general give precedence to their culture over their deen then of course finding a suitable partner in the confines of Islam will be extremely challenging because they are not following the deen correctly in the first place. For example, the parents will be increasing the mahr because culture tells them that for their daughter to be happy and secure, the man has to be rich and of a certain ethnicity. The girl, also going along with her parents, will want a nice big fancy wedding, because it's all the rage. And the guy, even though the signs are clear this is NOT a pious family, will groan about never finding any suitable girls, except for the fact that these are the only type of girls he is ever actually interested in because he never takes in account all the actual important qualities that a suitable wife should have since he gets his pointers from those who engage in premarital relationships. See where I'm going with this? This is not an issue of "Islam" or "islamic community"...We are in the age of easily finding Islamic knowledge. We shouldn't wait for someone to "teach" us anymore. I'm not saying that dawah should stop, but rather that we all have an obligation to seek knowledge of our religion. You will find that if Muslims had been knowledgeable and pious, marriage would be extremely easy. It would be like..oh these two people love each other? Bam. Married.



There are many scholars who encourage the youth to get married. However, I would never suggest to any parent to lower their standards for their children. If you're speaking about lowering the mahr, then sure. If you're speaking about redirecting their standards to be more islamic based, then definitely, but I wouldn't say lower standards.



Is that what's hindering women from getting married? Apps with background checks?



Why would islamic leaders be obligated to help men with the mahr? You are your own man who should be able to work and provide for your future spouse. One of the biggest issues with many muslims, especially those who are looking to get married, is that they put absolutely no effort in themselves. They don't improve their characters, they don't actually learn the deen properly, they don't have any patience, they don't trust in Allah's provision; they are still very immature.

Yes there are those who genuinely cannot find a suitable spouse, but sometimes marriage is not in everyone's destiny and that's ok. Being able to accept your situation, make du'a, still feel grateful, and continue to be patient is what matters in the end.

You see yourself in an environment which is incompatible with Islam, but what type of environment do you think the people were in pre-Islam? It was far worse than it is now, and Islam was the cure, and it's still the cure.

The main problem here is, in non-Muslim countries it's impossible to get in touch with sisters. And this is a things, that has nothing to do with culture. Islam says, we shall not come near to adultery, bam. Lowering gaze, bam. I don't say this is not good, it is perfect system. But when it comes to finding a spouse it's an obstacle. There a two options. Finding someone over family, but what to do, when your family is unable to help? Ask brothers, hmm, they apparently don't care, why should they, they are already married. Last option, go to the mosque, but I am not going to the mosque to ask for a wife. So there is no option left and now try to abstain from that what Allah has prohibited. You need to rely to 100 per cent to other people, because you cannot to anything at your own, what is good for safety, but with this way you will stay single until your death. Look at me, it applies. I have no option, except asking Allah, but for some a reason Allah doesn't want me to marry. So, it's really frustrating. And even if you try to get in touch by lowering your gaze and not talking to the sister, you get criticized. Everyone is good a speaking and criticizing..., but helping, no.


wa alaikum assalam

format_quote Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1

ChosenTCO, i agree with what you're saying tbh abt the marriage thing. I think its wayyyy to hard now tbh and i think maybe folk should lower their standards

I think you need to put an @ symbol before the name so "ChosenTCO" can see it on the notifications

format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

Agreed. But the problem is that the scholars arent promoting both sides of the problem equality. They stress so much about how haram it is to have premarital relations but they barely say anything about making marriage easy for the youth! That is why there is a problem. You yourself said it, they are not following the deen correctly(because they are not both sides of the problem equally enough), muslims just chose to follow the part that benefits the parents of the daughter and neglect the youth's desires. They should also be stressing about the importants of making marriage easy as well. They are not following ISLAM properly.

Marriage is optional/non-compulsory. Refraining from haram, however, is an obligation, so it should be promoted more considering every which way there is fitnah. Marriage is not the cure to every issue that brothers face today. Some of them go into marriage with the same issues that they entered in it with. It actually can magnify their situation. So while marriage is a beautiful thing and can be helpful and is encouraged in some instances, it's not the only option. That being said, when it does come time to get married and find a spouse, I can see how it is difficult to do when every part of the community which is meant to help is not really putting in the effort. I wouldn't put the blame on just one part of the community though as you're doing. Everyone can contribute and improve.

format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

Disagree. If this were true, then the concept of marketing and advertisements in general would not be real or needed. Everybody would just search for the information they need and thats it. However, even in islam you got so many different opinions you just cant escape with one opinion without reading its counter part.

We already have islam, it's a matter of actually implementing what we learn. And as for scholars teaching, they are teaching, but are people actually seeking their guidance? Have you actually voiced your concerns legitimately to any person of knowledge and heard their response? You're speaking from one perspective, but we don't know what they go through and the type of people they have to deal with/help. Marriage is just one aspect of life that we need guidance on and it would be futile for someone to study Islam for years and years and only cater to those who can't find spouses. Even I wouldn't know where to start. I'd have to bring in the entire family and speak to them to see where the problem lies. No one has time for that lol. You can do that for yourself.

When it comes to marriage it's not really that intricate. If anything, it's logical and common sense. Be pious, be respectful, be kind and patient, work hard, etc. You don't need to go to a scholar to do/know these things. You may need people to remind you from time to time, but that's on you to surround yourself with such people.

format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

Agreed. But thats only an "if". Ive heard of how easy it used to be back at the time of the prophet, yet look at us now. Just the though of marriage makes almost every muslim family tremble.

I wouldn't say it makes them tremble lol. But today it can be more complex because ideals are changing.

format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

hahaha. maybe wasnt my best example, but its definite one of the important processes to consider when getting married. how many times have we heard about parents marrying off their daughters to a guy they thought was good but turned out that he wasnt? how many times have we heard of these cases ending in divorce or even worse? How many times have we heard of men and women being rejected because their parents dont know about them well enough? It (background checking) is a major factor when it comes to marriage and making that process easier will definitely have an impact on the marriage process ...

Background checks have no basis. You can expect marriages to fail or turn sour but that's just life and often it has nothing to do with "background checks." There are still many successful marriages. You can ask the person important questions about their character directly and tell them your expectations. There's no reason for people to tiptoe around what they really want from their future partners when they get the chance to be forward. Really sometimes it just takes a bit of reflection and observation to tell what type of person someone is.

format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

Are you unaware that the welling being of the entire islamic society is the responsibility of the islamic leaders? If we are going to act so harsh towards men and not help them with their responsibility then how on earth are we to except them to feel compassion and love for their spouses when they have received non from the community? Why would we expect them to stay true and loyal to the community when the community has done nothing for them except telling them to man up and take responsibility for their obligations?

What exactly are you referring to here? How do you want them to help? Give exact examples because I thought you were talking about actual hand outs for men to pay the mahr.
For compassion and love, do we not get enough from our mothers

format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

Honestly? i think it was a blessed time when they were supported by the grade of Allah and through the best man that walked this earth. Unlike us were at the end of time, the muslim believer who holds on to his faith is like that who wholes on to a burning piece of coal.

Overall, i do understand where your coming from, but i still believe that the scholars of today are not playing their role properly in making marriage easier for the youth and in other general matters of islam.

I was referring to the state of the people pre-Islam, before prophet Muhammed pbuh. They were in a worse off state before Islam. So if they can overcome their bad habits and culture with the introduction if Islam, there's no reason why we can't today by actually following Islam properly.

- - - Updated - - -

format_quote Originally Posted by new2010

The main problem here is, in non-Muslim countries it's impossible to get in touch with sisters. And this is a things, that has nothing to do with culture. Islam says, we shall not come near to adultery, bam. Lowering gaze, bam. I don't say this is not good, it is perfect system. But when it comes to finding a spouse it's an obstacle. There a two options. Finding someone over family, but what to do, when your family is unable to help? Ask brothers, hmm, they apparently don't care, why should they, they are already married. Last option, go to the mosque, but I am not going to the mosque to ask for a wife. So there is no option left and now try to abstain from that what Allah has prohibited. You need to rely to 100 per cent to other people, because you cannot to anything at your own, what is good for safety, but with this way you will stay single until your death. Look at me, it applies. I have no option, except asking Allah, but for some a reason Allah doesn't want me to marry. So, it's really frustrating. And even if you try to get in touch by lowering your gaze and not talking to the sister, you get criticized. Everyone is good a speaking and criticizing..., but helping, no.


wa alaikum assalam

I don't like to generalize because every family is different. However, do you think that sometimes the issue is not that people are useless but that they don't see you as being compatible with the people they know? For example, say there is someone who has some bad qualities about him or is still quite immature but wants to get married, and when he asks the people around him he gets no help from them and assumes that they are putting no effort in assisting him. What would be the solution to such a situation?? Should the family blatantly tell him he's immature and no girl will have him? This is just one example, but there could be many reasons about why the family is not helpful. In the end though I can't say that families do not want their sons to get married, it's just a matter of under what conditions are they willing to genuinely support them? This is something to reflect on.

Greetings and peace be with you ChosenTCO;

They should also be stressing about the importants of making marriage easy as well. They are not following ISLAM properly.

Why should getting married be easy? I have only been married for thirty two years, the first thirty two years are hard, then it just gets harder. Marriage requires a huge amount of patience, compromise, forgiveness, love and understanding. It is so easy to give up and walk away when the going gets tough. Prayer helps.

Blessings
Eric

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H

Greetings and peace be with you ChosenTCO;


Why should getting married be easy? I have only been married for thirty two years, the first thirty two years are hard, then it just gets harder. Marriage requires a huge amount of patience, compromise, forgiveness, love and understanding. It is so easy to give up and walk away when the going gets tough. Prayer helps.

Blessings
Eric

One day he will have a beautiful daughter or son, raise them for years, and see them as his whole world, and we will see then how easy it will be for him to give them away to just anyone who asks

Greetings and peace be with you *charisma*;

One day he will have a beautiful daughter or son, raise them for years, and see them as his whole world, and we will see then how easy it will be for him to give them away to just anyone who asks

That sounds like you are talking from experience.:

blessings
Eric

format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*

One day he will have a beautiful daughter or son, raise them for years, and see them as his whole world, and we will see then how easy it will be for him to give them away to just anyone who asks

That is how women attack men is through his children. Worst thing a man can ever do is love his children, because it put him in a point of weakness where his woman will use the children to control him and if a divorce happens use the children as means to hurt him the most. Children are powerful weapon that belongs to women to hurt men. You cannot deny that.

Tell me if it is a lie of stories after stories after stories when a divorce happen that the mother use the very children at the beginning of marriage at the end to make the children hate their fathers, cut ties with their fathers and society in general doesn't even come to the aid. So please, don't make it look like it is all bells and whistles. Children is a further stress to men that will harm him when divorce happens.

Also don't think children is all that great either:



By the way, more shaming tactics towards men will be..."So what? Women go through birth and she sacrifice for her children, be a man and take it. It doesn't come close to what a mother goes through." Isn't that what you guys do to further devalue men's role and strip him from any right and devalue him and make him another further doormat to be used and abused. Men will have to MAN UP now doesn't he?

format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

Hahaha! Honestly, I don’t like this labeling at all, but if you must know I fit under the regular/average sunni muslim.

I don’t follow any specific scholars or madhabs because I feel like they are all made up by human beings that are very well fallible. Add to that the element of misunderstanding and miscommunication and you get rulings and things that are very morphed and extreme ideologies. But thats not the worst part.

The thing that annoys me the most is when modern scholars keep warning us about the haram things, yet neglect to give halal substitutes for that which is haram. Every time when a new technology or idea or concept that immerge, scholars are quick to deem it haram without proper investigation or substitutes for it. It just makes the world harder and harder to live in.

The simplest example I can offer is to look at the problem of marriage and premarital relations. How many times have we seen new things that immerge which promotes and simplify premarital relations (i.e. porn, one night stands, dating apps, pickup artists)? And how many times have we got things from scholars and Islamic leaders that help the youth get married and encouraging it? When was the last time you’ve seen as scholar asking parents to lower their standards of potential spouses for their daughters? When have you seen the umma provide apps or methods for the young muslim girls to background check their potential spouses? When have you seen Islamic leaders help the muslim men with their mahr for marriage? And if there are, why aren’t these things being promoted just as much as the haram things and warnings about them are?

Oh boy, I just went off on a rant there and didn’t realise … lol. Anyways … point im trying to make is that, I don’t follow any specific madhabs or scholars because I feel like most of them are disconnected from reality and dont provide reasonable or compatible solutions to our modern-day issues of the world. And how could they when they have disconnected themselves so much from the rest of the world and only surround themselves with pious people that don’t see 10 feet beyond their sphere of influence to where the true fitna lies (which is actually where most people live and reside)?

Asalaamualaykum, Very good post.

Although you have rightfully identified issues - your search of the solution is misplaced.

The very establishment of a solution, is totally based on the functionality of the constituents for it to be a success.

Islam in general appeals to 4 levels of a Muslim.

a) The Shariah Law - That which is practised in public. (Self explanatory)
b) The Shariah Law - That which is practised in privacy. (Making Whudu before Salaah
c) Zikr of Allah SWT but still practised outwardly - doing a good deed in privacy
d) Zikr of Allah in total privacy whereby even someone on the outside has no idea whats in the heart.

To Explain myself here, I will take you back in time. In those days - a football when purchased was totally flat. you had to use an air pump and pump air into the valve and in about 5 minutes you had a bouncing functional ball. The football was made of elements, The inner inflatable (balloon like) "bladder" and then the outer leather casing. When you pumped the ball with air, you actually inflated the casing which in turn expanded and inflated the outer leather casing. The "bladder" was hidden and concealed from the eye and all a person could see was the inflated outer leather casing. Take the ball bounce it and it was functional.

A little prank we used to play on friends, was to push a pin or matchstick into the ball and deflate the air - The bladder used to collapse but still left the outer leather case "inflated". The victim used to come - hold the ball, and bounce it !!! As you can imagine - it never bounced and came back up. It just stuck to the ground.

The point is, for the ball to be functional, it took the hidden inner casing to be inflated. In the same way points (A and B) above represent the leather outer case and points (C and D) represent the inner case. Without inflating the inner case, on the first bounce the ball squashes up.

The problem is not whether you follow a madhab or not. Neither is the solution.

When the inner part of someone has justice, Haq, Adl , upright, honest Etc ( The inner bladder of the ball)then collectively the society inflates into fulfilling the outward Shariah (Leather shell of the ball). The end result is a solid functional system ( A bouncing ball).

Example: Pertaining to marriage as you have mentioned: Here in UK over 3 decades - various bodies have implemented marriage sessions, marriage meetings of potential spouses etc and Alhumdulila a percentage worked but the majority failed...WHY ? because most of the guys going there were fooling around using it as initial contact to mess girls about - even to the point that guys were bringing fake fathers pretending to be their dads, The young guys hitting on muslimahs and their "dads" hitting on elder divorcees !!!! (The mothers) Imagine that !!!

The point is the reason the Ulema don't implement these things is because they know the masses of Muslims are corrupted in the hearts (in that bladder of the ball) and until you don't recitify that "bladder" you just manufacturing leather balls that wont bounce !!!!

Look at what times have become - 30 years ago An Aalim would give a talk, after that Zikr was made, Durood was given, they ate together with the masses implementing as many Sunnah as you can, after that people sat in circles with books and hadith and you had a galaxy of Ulema in gatherings that you could consult and ask questions.......Fast forward that 30 years later today....what do you have ? Flamboyant stages with celeb status scholars . after that talk they snap a few selfies here and there, shake a few hands....jump in the cars and gone !!! And the people come out thinking "I know the Quran" ......

You can line up NAK, Hamza Yusuf , Tablighi Jamaath, Berelwis, Wahabis, Salafis, Sheikh one name right up to Sheikh Another name all in one room .....the bottom line is brother.....All of them put together cannot make the Zikr of Allah SWT for you. You have to do it yourself !!! You have to engage beyong A and B into C and D (above points).

You can implement a million solutions with a million establishments but the solution is only functional and viable when the participants have Haq, Adl, Honesty, integrity, upright and have Allah in the hearts. If the participants are corrupt - they will eventually corrupt the system.

Allah SWT will only change the conditions of man WHEN man changes himself.

Everyone wants the Ilm today - but the REAL Tassawuf ( nothing to do with Sufism, I'm talking real tasawauf) gets put into the "too hard basket"

salaam

I honestly think that whole marriage thing is out of controls and the society and culture you live dictates how one gets marriad - the scholars can advice and tell people what is within the bounds of shariah but ultimately its up to the wider community to solve this problem

Hyper sexual world with porn, hook up culture and then you have slow arranged marriages trying to compete with that. - its a very big problem. Sadly I have no solutions lol.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H

Greetings and peace be with you *charisma*;


That sounds like you are talking from experience.:

blessings
Eric

No not there yet lol. But I can empathize.

format_quote Originally Posted by xboxisdead

That is how women attack men is through his children. Worst thing a man can ever do is love his children, because it put him in a point of weakness where his woman will use the children to control him and if a divorce happens use the children as means to hurt him the most. Children are powerful weapon that belongs to women to hurt men. You cannot deny that.

Tell me if it is a lie of stories after stories after stories when a divorce happen that the mother use the very children at the beginning of marriage at the end to make the children hate their fathers, cut ties with their fathers and society in general doesn't even come to the aid. So please, don't make it look like it is all bells and whistles. Children is a further stress to men that will harm him when divorce happens.

Also don't think children is all that great either:

By the way, more shaming tactics towards men will be..."So what? Women go through birth and she sacrifice for her children, be a man and take it. It doesn't come close to what a mother goes through." Isn't that what you guys do to further devalue men's role and strip him from any right and devalue him and make him another further doormat to be used and abused. Men will have to MAN UP now doesn't he?

Completely unrelated topic. But glad you got that out of your system

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

salaam

I honestly think that whole marriage thing is out of controls and the society and culture you live dictates how one gets marriad - the scholars can advice and tell people what is within the bounds of shariah but ultimately its up to the wider community to solve this problem

Hyper sexual world with porn, hook up culture and then you have slow arranged marriages trying to compete with that. - its a very big problem. Sadly I have no solutions lol.

I see porn coming up over and over again used as an excuse. I'm a female, I've never come across having to look at or watch porn ever in my life. I do understand what you're saying in general though and it's true..we are in a hypersexual society more so now than before, but under what circumstances do brothers find they have an issue with this or are exposed to porn against their will??

format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

Marriage is indeed option, but when the person starts to fear falling into temptation then it becomes mandatory. And we all know that for most of us, releasing these urges is more of a need than a want (except for those extreme cases where a person is asexual or has been dismissed sexually). So refraining from haram should not be our primary way to handle it as it is only a temporary solution. It is better to practice the prevention method (marry early) than the cure (refraining from haram for God knows how long). As for blaming one part of the community, id say that if the entire umma is facing these problems, then the problem isn’t with them … its with the methods they are led with or what they are being led to.

If you have the resources to get married, get married. No one is telling you not to. But if you cannot, then do you really have a choice other than to refrain from haram? And there are a million other things you can do to keep yourself occupied from committing haram acts. I'm not a guy so I can't 100% speak on the urges men face, but we all have our weaknesses and there shouldn't just be one way to prevent our downfall.

format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

But if the person wants you to actually go through with buying it, he must first inform you of how to buy it and make the process of purchasing it easy (and that’s what the scholars lack in talking about and trying to do), else … even if the product was beneficial to you, you might be discourage by how difficult it is to obtain and buy.

I disagree with you here because the responsibility for this specific thing is not on the scholars. The way you get married is detailed in the Sunnah. A man who really wants to get married, and I mean truly, legitamitely, with all of the maturity it requires, will be prepared for it in EVERY. SINGLE. WAY, from it's acceptance to it's rejection. You want them to embellish the idea of marriage, but the reality is marriage is not something which needs embellishment. The mahr should not be extravagant, I agree, but again this is already in the Sunnah. The people should be willing and open, again I agree, and again it is already outlined in the Sunnah and Quran. You want them to teach Muslims that marriage is wonderful and it will save you from sins, etc. etc. but the reality is every marriage is unique and different. It definitely has it's benefits, but to really obtain those benefits you have to be PREPARED as a PROPER MUSLIM, because a benefit for example, could be gaining patience during GREAT difficulty/trial. Just because you are married doesn't mean the trials of fitnah end. You will experience fitnah for the rest of your life, marriage does not stop it. From fitnah, you can be attracted to another woman and unattracted to your own wife. So you need to establish your foundation of marriage BEFORE you get married. And no one can ever help you do that but yourself. Get what I'm saying? There is no embellishment in marriage but it absolutely is preferable than wasting your emotions on haram love. I can't tell you marriage is going to be perfect for you and it will "save you" so that your mind focuses on that instead of the haram because your mind should never be focused on the haram in the first place. So where does the encouragement for marriage come from? You talk about it as if the only reason to get married is to refrain from urges. It is much more than that, and this is what you need to understand. Your intentions in everything should be first and foremost to please Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Say even if you were prepared to be married, and for whatever reason you just couldn't; It wasn't written for you; It's not in your destiny...what do you do?? Do you just lead a haram life?? No. You persevere and you continue with your life because it should not be dependent on whether you get married or not. YOu find an alternative to live a life that fulfills your obligations as a Muslim. And I know you want to have something to look forward to, I get that, but in those cases you also have to remember this life is quite temporary.

format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

I was not referring to those cases where the flame of passion dies out between the married couple. I was actually referring to those cases where the parents marry off their daughter to a person that they thought was a pious man but turns out to be a double faced, deceitful person who is actually an alcoholic/smoker/womanizer/never prays, etc. And believe me, you have no idea how many times these things happen in the world today … Perhaps you are unaware of it and that’s why you think background checks are not important, but if you have lived with other people outside a circle of pious individuals, you would most certainly know what im talking about.

I know, but how do you know that there was no background check done in those cases as well?? Or that the person just changed after marriage? Or that his wife wasn't active in helping him change..etc. Likewise, those types of people could become better after marriage. Not praying, womanizing, smoking, etc can't really be hidden. I mean a woman can't be that gullible. And it's actually weird that you say that because "background checks" is one of the reasons that people are having a hard time getting married. If you're from a different culture, and I don't know anyone who knows you, why in the world would I let you marry my son/daughter? Or if the people who knew the "sinful" you were asked about your character and you have since repented, how does that work in your favor? It doesn't. That's the idea of where background checking fails. Also, if you know those types of people, then you have an obligation to help them change their ways. If a close relative like you is unable to do that, then you can't expect scholars to have an effect on them.

format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

Giving hand outs IS a form of care. It shows compassion for those in need! Im not saying that we should give hand outs for every person that wants to get married. It should only be given to those who are truly in need and not those who are lazy sitting on their bumz thinking that Allah will shower them with money by his grace. Ofc that’s not what im implying! But we should still try to guide our youth on how to be responsible for themselves and chase after what will help them attain what they need … for example, helping them find jobs …

I still don't agree with that. Subhanallah the sunnah has allowed men to delay payment of the mahr, to give anything tangible as mahr, and stresses the importance of not making the mahr or weddings extravagant. THe rest is on the people. Bros should be saving for their mahr while they are young and their parents should be encouraging them. They should be making sincere du'a and praying istikhara. And to be completely honest, the world is wide and vast..there are tons of women who would be willing to get married with very little if mahr is the issue. It's just a matter of preference I guess. A lot of what you're asking to be taught, should be taught by your parents. And when you come of age and realize right from wrong and understand issues, then it's on you to teach yourself what you haven't been taught whether it is by attending lectures, searching, asking questions..whatever. And if the people around you aren't willing to find you a wife, maybe there's a legit reason for that and no one is actually giving you any constructive criticism to your face.

format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*

I see porn coming up over and over again used as an excuse. I'm a female, I've never come across having to look at or watch porn ever in my life. I do understand what you're saying in general though and it's true..we are in a hypersexual society more so now than before, but under what circumstances do brothers find they have an issue with this or are exposed to porn against their will??

Its everywhere and so is hook up culture - if your not married then its a serious temptation especially if there is no halal outlet. It also depends what age group your part of because kids and teens nowadays are a lot more exposed to it then in the past when there was no Internet. I live in the UK so I'm not sure where you live or how old you are but its getting worse - Mix that with culture (caste, old ideas) and you dont have Halal solution. Basically stuck it 2 extremes.

I'm not even getting into the war with feminism and patriarchal culture that is another headache.

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format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

Thats exactly the problem i wanted to highlight, but i personally believe that scholars can do a bit more than to just give advice to the umma. With the number and magnitude of their followers, their voices and opinions would be of value to the real people in authority and power. The opinions can help change the countries rules and legislation to make the halal more easy and the haram more difficult to obtain. ... Perhaps that is a lot to ask for, but i guess when you are in a place and time like me(a person who is really getting affected by these problem), you might think of things like that.

I'm not sure what country your from but this will not work in places like UK or US where the scholars at best are advisers and have very little power on the culture of the people. I would even argue they have very little power outside people that directly follow them.

format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*

If you have the resources to get married, get married. No one is telling you not to. But if you cannot, then do you really have a choice other than to refrain from haram? And there are a million other things you can do to keep yourself occupied from committing haram acts. I'm not a guy so I can't 100% speak on the urges men face, but we all have our weaknesses and there shouldn't just be one way to prevent our downfall.



I disagree with you here because the responsibility for this specific thing is not on the scholars. The way you get married is detailed in the Sunnah. A man who really wants to get married, and I mean truly, legitamitely, with all of the maturity it requires, will be prepared for it in EVERY. SINGLE. WAY, from it's acceptance to it's rejection. You want them to embellish the idea of marriage, but the reality is marriage is not something which needs embellishment. The mahr should not be extravagant, I agree, but again this is already in the Sunnah. The people should be willing and open, again I agree, and again it is already outlined in the Sunnah and Quran. You want them to teach Muslims that marriage is wonderful and it will save you from sins, etc. etc. but the reality is every marriage is unique and different. It definitely has it's benefits, but to really obtain those benefits you have to be PREPARED as a PROPER MUSLIM, because a benefit for example, could be gaining patience during GREAT difficulty/trial. Just because you are married doesn't mean the trials of fitnah end. You will experience fitnah for the rest of your life, marriage does not stop it. From fitnah, you can be attracted to another woman and unattracted to your own wife. So you need to establish your foundation of marriage BEFORE you get married. And no one can ever help you do that but yourself. Get what I'm saying? There is no embellishment in marriage but it absolutely is preferable than wasting your emotions on haram love. I can't tell you marriage is going to be perfect for you and it will "save you" so that your mind focuses on that instead of the haram because your mind should never be focused on the haram in the first place. So where does the encouragement for marriage come from? You talk about it as if the only reason to get married is to refrain from urges. It is much more than that, and this is what you need to understand. Your intentions in everything should be first and foremost to please Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Say even if you were prepared to be married, and for whatever reason you just couldn't; It wasn't written for you; It's not in your destiny...what do you do?? Do you just lead a haram life?? No. You persevere and you continue with your life because it should not be dependent on whether you get married or not. YOu find an alternative to live a life that fulfills your obligations as a Muslim. And I know you want to have something to look forward to, I get that, but in those cases you also have to remember this life is quite temporary.



I know, but how do you know that there was no background check done in those cases as well?? Or that the person just changed after marriage? Or that his wife wasn't active in helping him change..etc. Likewise, those types of people could become better after marriage. Not praying, womanizing, smoking, etc can't really be hidden. I mean a woman can't be that gullible. And it's actually weird that you say that because "background checks" is one of the reasons that people are having a hard time getting married. If you're from a different culture, and I don't know anyone who knows you, why in the world would I let you marry my son/daughter? Or if the people who knew the "sinful" you were asked about your character and you have since repented, how does that work in your favor? It doesn't. That's the idea of where background checking fails. Also, if you know those types of people, then you have an obligation to help them change their ways. If a close relative like you is unable to do that, then you can't expect scholars to have an effect on them.




I still don't agree with that. Subhanallah the sunnah has allowed men to delay payment of the mahr, to give anything tangible as mahr, and stresses the importance of not making the mahr or weddings extravagant. THe rest is on the people. Bros should be saving for their mahr while they are young and their parents should be encouraging them. They should be making sincere du'a and praying istikhara. And to be completely honest, the world is wide and vast..there are tons of women who would be willing to get married with very little if mahr is the issue. It's just a matter of preference I guess. A lot of what you're asking to be taught, should be taught by your parents. And when you come of age and realize right from wrong and understand issues, then it's on you to teach yourself what you haven't been taught whether it is by attending lectures, searching, asking questions..whatever. And if the people around you aren't willing to find you a wife, maybe there's a legit reason for that and no one is actually giving you any constructive criticism to your face.

Okay, so here is what i understood from yourpost in general (and you can correct me if im wrong). You emphasize on the factthat marriage is not obligatory hence we should not promote it as much as wepromote the warnings of doing haram. You seem to suggest that just becausemarriage helps in making a halal outlet for the sexual desires of people, itshould not be portrayed as the only solutions as there are other problems thataccompany marriage such as the burden or responsibility and providing for thefamily and all of these extra chores. Your basically saying that marriage has alot more problems to it than the benefit of sexual pleasure and what not, thusit shouldnt be regarded as the solution.

Lets look at how a normal conversation between ateen and the arab community goes ...
1- teen requests to get married because they arestarting to feel like adults underneath their belt. They are told to get a holdof themselves because they are being immature and just hormonal. They shouldwait until they become a bit older when their brains are more developed.
2- The teen becomes a young adult then requeststo get married again. They are asked if they have a good academic status first.The young adult then goes off to develop their academia.
3- By then the young adult has entered their mid20s and looks for a spouse again. They are asked, do you have a decent incometo support a family? The young adult then goes off to work their bums off todevelop their career so that they get paid a decent amount to support a family.
4- By that time this person has probably reachedthe age of 30 or 35 years old without a husband or wife.
5- By then when that person proposes to someone,(if he is a man) he is told "your too old for my daughter" or (if sheis a women) she is told "your too old to bare children of my son".

ALL this because we dont trust these young adultsthat they will be able to support themselves and their spouses in the future.ALL of this because we still have this stupid concept that marriage is only forthose who wants to start a family and shouldnt be for 2 who simply love eachother and just want to be together. All this because we cant stand the thoughtof having a couple that are incapable of living together at least for the timethey are trying to progress their academia. (just a side note to that, see if youcan ask your parents how old they were when they got married, chances are theyprobably got married around the age of 22 or younger. Meanwhile today we arebeing forced to wait even longer than that all the while haram things aregetting easier and easier to obtain)

And with regards to your comment about porn. Youd be surprised how easily guys get exposed to pornography these days. Maybe its not the same for women but its getting worse for them too. I am a clear example of how bad things have become. I, for one, heard about pornographic things at the age of 9 or 10 (before I even knew how babies were made) and was exposed to it at around 12 through my peers at school (some whom were older and others younger). I was so oblivious to it back then I thought it was something new in this world and that islam doesn’t know about it or says anything regarding that matter, let alone knew whether it was haram or halal. I finally got the talk about “IT” by the age of 14 or 15, but by then I was already hooked. I didn’t think too much of its prohibition since I was only warned about it a few times. Later on, when I started to actually think for myself I searched about it and found out how haram and big of a deal it really was. I was bombarded with videos that call people to watch these things every name in the book. Disease hearted, soul corrupted, deviant, non Islamic, muslim faker, transgressor … and the list goes on. As you can imagine the amount of self-hatred that’s started to develop within me overwhelmed me. I started losing my focus in education, the bonds I had with my family worsened, I started to develop depression, started inflicting physical pain to force myself to stop (if I told you what kind of things I did to myself you’d throw up!) and much more, but to no avail. So many bad things happened to me since then. Worst of all? I started resenting islam because it was conflicting with what I have fallen pray too and brought me nothing but an internal mini war in my brain that caused me much pain! AND ALL BECAUSE OF WHAT?

This all could have been avoided if the umma didn’t have that kind of stigma about these topics. If they were able to openly discuss solutions to these problems without getting all worked up about it. If I was taught earlier by my parents about these things, I wouldn’t have exposed myself to these things willingly before I knew it was haram. And guess where this stigma comes from? Probably from their forfathers who were also taught the same way that we were, … through the scholars of islam and their successors. Through stigma and awkwardness, and look were that method got the umma to? If we keep ignoring these problems and discard them as feelings that can be easily overcome by our will then we will have a serious problem on our hands like we do now. If there isn’t a legitimate outlet to these feelings in a world that amplify these desires insanely then we will be sure to find the majority of the people facing this problems finding illegitimate ways to go about fulfilling these desires.


I apologize if I may seem a bit aggressive in this post but its only because I have experienced the problems that come out of this way of thinking and I have suffered immensely from these limitations (this topic truly strike a nerve for me and hits me hard to my core). My main concern in this post is to let you know that marriage is a much needed solution to fix the very problem of all sexual desires that affect the youth ( I am aware of that marriage can actually amplify these desires, but that problem goes under a different heading. Marriage is meant to address the basic need of sex and other needs, not a cure to psychological problems). So it shouldn’t be thought of as a tool that’s only meant to start a family and not meant for lovers who want to just be together. Because it is meant for people like that as well. And as for my initial post, that was meant to address the problems of misunderstanding and misinterpretation OF, and BY the scholars. The way I see it … it is because of the umma’s short comings that I had to go through what I suffered, and it is because of the scholars and their successor’s short comings that brought the umma to this state. The funny thing is that in the end, I am the one that gets blamed for all I went through. I am the one that gets called “Disease hearted, soul corrupted, deviant, non Islamic, muslim faker, transgressor”! And its my fault that I didn’t do enough research that could have saved me all this even though I was only 12. And for those who will say “but its your parents fault, not the entire umma.” Guess what? My parents are also part of this umma and they were taught about islam the same way that most of the umma do if not better!

No more will I allow myself to be judged and affected by the umma for their short comings. No more will I allow myself to blindly follow fatwas made by knowledgeable people who used to live 5 centuries ago and don’t know anything about the current world is today. No more will I allow myself and wellbeing to be at the mercy of the umma who cant even tolerate each other for having different opinions. Even if that means that id have to become a scholar myself! I will go through all that just to avoid what I suffered from self hatred and depression. Because out of all the things ive mentioned, it is that(depression and self conflict/hatred) which hurt me the most.

Edit:

During the heat of the moment of angry. I incorrectly blamed the scholars of the past. I apologize for that. What i have an issue with is when our modern scholars still use the old supplementary rulings of the previous scholars to govern new problems that emerge in our world today. These rulings are sometimes incompatible and cause great problems for the umma. The other problem is that these modern scholars are also (based on what i have heard and understood) unwilling to give new fatwas that would deal with the problems hindering our society today out of fear that they dont want to change the religion and the rulings that were passed down from our forfathers that seemed to work well with them or, if they must, they usually give the safety fatwa which deems things haram based on very basic reasoning and logic.

I do understand the immense responsibility of giving a new ruling and all, but it is still their responsibility as leaders of the umma to guide us. And if they are going to make everything haram and difficult then dont expect people support of follow everything these scholars say. Because at one point, if these scholars keep tightening the circle of halal on the muslims then some of them might break.

Again i do apologize for blaming the previous scholars of our deen. But majority of their supplimentary rulings cannot be used for our world today as it was meant for their time and conditions. If the olama' wants us to still follow their rulings then the umma needs to bring back the conditions of the world our forfathers used to live in else the previous rulings have to be amended or changed and in both cases im more than willing to help!