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View Poll Results: Who is more at fault?

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  • Scandalous dressers

    4 16.00%
  • Sinister Eyes ffended:

    1 4.00%
  • Both

    20 80.00%
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  1. #1
    Noor's Avatar
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    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

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    In institutions outside the comfort of a home, male and female interaction is contact which every Muslim finds difficulty overcoming. Sparked by comments made in the ‘What school/college do you go to?’ I decided to start this thread for the purpose of clarification concerning approach/feelings offered by members of the opposite gender.

    The predicament? Let’s use the presence/interaction of males and females attending school in a non-Muslim environment. People from all walks of life go to such institutions as do many Muslim youth/adults. We are bound to confront issues which challenge our faith such as dress code and relations between the sexes.

    Now, brothers and sisters, here is what’s most important. Who is more at fault? The one who wears clothing that can be described as scandalous? Or, are the stares of immoral eyes more damaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z View Post
    Salaam.
    Well maybe if bits were not being shown off, men would easier to be able to lower their gaze a little. Don't use it as a hit-back, you got to cover up. Regardless whether anyone looks at you or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by *charisma* View Post
    Besides that, whether a girl (muslim or non) is not covered up, all that's ur business is to lower ur gaze and make dua for her guidance, but instead u all choose to stare at her and then comment. If you are able to give out a detailed comment, then brothers uve been staring too long.
    So, some of you may say, what’s the point to this thread?…obviously is a collective action that is destroying our souls and schools, what are you getting at? To those of you who are thinking this way, I dare to allow your mind to think critically.

    Quote Originally Posted by solid_snake View Post
    it's not only the clothes, the way they talk and act with guys, and while guys walk by them they sure as hell don't lower their gaze.
    Must we allow this type of thinking to further occur?


    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    "Faisbir sabran jameelan".Therefore endure with a goodly patience (70:05)

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    Lateralus63's Avatar
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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?



    If i spill some water, was it my fault for spilling it was it the person who put it in that place at fault? Obvious answer really..

    People are always going to find some way to shift the blame off themselves to make the crime more easier to perpetrate or to regain their pride after shame. The blame lies only on the person who causes the crime.
    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Post count means nothing. So dont pursue it.

  4. #3
    - Qatada -'s Avatar
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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?




    I think the whole idea is like pieces of wood and a spark of fire. The men are the pieces of wood & the females who dress up like that are the spark of the fire.


    So if a guys walking down the street, he won't get affected in any way and may not get distracted by anything too much while minding his own business.

    But as soon as he sees a woman dressed up in a way that will cause fitnah - the wood that had no affect in the beginning lights up with that little spark, the more he stares - the greater the fitnah level increases.

    The spark grows into a flame, which increases the longer he stares. The bigger the flame - the harder it is to control the fire, as the heat and size of the fire increases the more dangerous the flame becomes, its harder to control now and the more likely it will have drastic affects...


    The fire reaches its climax, and it attacks whatever is near it.. He attacks the woman and she cant extinguish the flame, its too late...












    To prevent that flame from burning or even lighting up, use the simplest of methods:


    "Do not allow your first glance to be followed by your second, because the first glance is permitted for you but the second is not". (Abu Dawud & Tirmidhi)




    Last edited by - Qatada -; 01-26-2006 at 01:18 AM.

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    *charisma*'s Avatar
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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Assalamu Alaikum

    If i spill some water, was it my fault for spilling it was it the person who put it in that place at fault? Obvious answer really..

    People are always going to find some way to shift the blame off themselves to make the crime more easier to perpetrate or to regain their pride after shame. The blame lies only on the person who causes the crime.
    Using water as a metaphor for the issue of interaction in institutions is weak nonetheless. Do you ever think that the males have an influence in how the females dress?? Or how about that some of these women arent even Muslimahs, so technically you cant blame your sinning for them dressing immodestly?

    When a man acts noble and modest, most women will not try to solicit him or tempt him because these women respect him

    Whether someone is blamed or not, the crime still exists in the face of Allah and if someone tries to gain pride *arrogance* from their shameful acts, they have just sinned again.

    "Do not allow your first glance to be followed by your second, because the first glance is permitted for you but the second is not". (Abu Dawud & Tirmidhi)
    Jazak Allah khair ekhi fi sabilillah for that, an excellent example!

    Fi aman Allah
    w'salaam
    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    D e a t h

    is the easiest
    of all things after it
    ; ;

    the hardest
    of all things before it

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    abdulhaqqibnluv's Avatar
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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

    Unfortunately this is a problem that is of increasing occurance here in the west and even in the muslim world. Muslim men and women are greatly lacking that the important branch of eeman called haya. We as muslim men and women should cover ourselves properly and dress modestly. We should follow the shariah in our dress. And then after that we should lower our gazes. THe prophet sallahu alayhi wa salaam said, for us to lower our gazes. If we do not then that is a sin. But as has been previously mentioned its harder to lower the gaze when one sees something that attracks you and intices you. So we should strive to keep out of situations where we will be inticed by members of the opposite sex other than our spouses. I also advise the youth to marry for it helps to lower the gaze and protects the private parts from that which is impermissible. JazakALlahu khair

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    Halima's Avatar
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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?




    I dont see it as being the man or the woman's fault as such. Everyone is accountable on behalf of their desires. In the Quran it doesnt speculate over which should do more of such. In the Quran it is specifically inscribed that BOTH men and women are entitled to both lower their gaze. Believe it or not women are just as tempted as men to look at opposite sex. No lie. This is human nature. We all have urges and drives but in Islam we are taught how to control it and when it is permissable to unleash that desire at the right place, the right time. In the Quran it may seem that it strongly empahsizes that women are to be covered just as men, but yet Islam itself doesnt allow men to wear shorts do they? Islam does allow men to walk only in underwear walking down th run way now does it? Of course not. Both men and women are in harmony to both play their part in the name of modesty.



    • Allah says: “Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty. That will make for greater purity for them, and Allah is acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty…” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 30-31]
    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Do your charity in the name of Da'wah and help us out

    Insha'Allah Khair.



  9. #7
    Takumi's Avatar
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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Halima View Post


    In the Quran it may seem that it strongly empahsizes that women are to be covered just as men, but yet Islam itself doesnt allow men to wear shorts do they? Islam does allow men to walk only in underwear walking down th run way now does it? Of course not. Both men and women are in harmony to both play their part in the name of modesty.
    You might want to check Al Muwatta for the permissibility of the Maliki Fiqh for men wearing shorts.

    Thanks.
    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Takumi Nakashima
    WattaquLlah(a) wa yu'allimukumuLlah(u)
    (Be Mindful of Allah and He will teach you)

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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    asalaamu alaikum

    i voted for scandalous dressers, but in my opinion both parties are at equal fault

  11. #9
    Halima's Avatar
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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Takumi View Post
    You might want to check Al Muwatta for the permissibility of the Maliki Fiqh for men wearing shorts.

    Thanks.


    Thank you for the suggestion.

    However I think there is a gray area here. Since most shorts come above the knee then right off the bat violates the man's dress code. Hence what is the man's dress code? The man's dress code is from the navel to knee. So when he is standing that will expose his lower thigh and that is not sufficent enough to cover his knees. Till this day I have not seen shorts that are made to the knees...lol Or have you seen it?
    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Do your charity in the name of Da'wah and help us out

    Insha'Allah Khair.



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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    There are several scenarios that I've seen.

    (1) Some hijaabis just drool over the shaykh after he finishes his lecture. I didn't see them lowering down their gaze. Maybe asking question is permissible. So, it's the shaykh's fault? Or maybe some hijaabi's were droolling over Hamza Yusuf asking him to sign his book.

    [I saw those hijaabi because they went down from their seats at the back to meet the shaykh. In front of everyone.]

    (2) Some muslim men talk freely with the lady cashiers at Wal Mart but when he speaks to a hijaabi, he lowers down his gaze. You see this a lot at some masajid.

    (3) Many women just stared at those nasheed artists while they are performing their songs.

    Let us see the athaar [collection of the stories of sahabah] regarding Hanzalah.

    Hadeeth Twenty Four - A Time for this and a Time for that

    From Hanzalah al-Usayyidee (who said):
    Aboo Bakr met me and asked: "How are you O Hanzalah?" I replied: "Hanzalah is guilty of hypocrisy!" He said: "Free is Allaah and far removed from all defects! What are you sayings". I said: "When we are with Allaah’s Messenger and he reminds us of the Fire and Paradise it is as if we are seeing it with our own eyes. Then when we depart from Allaah’s Messenger and attend to our wives, our children and our business, then much of this slips from our minds". Aboo Bakr said: "By Allaah we also experience the same". So I went with Aboo Bakr until we entered upon Allaah’s Messenger. I said: "Hanzalah is guilty of hypocrisy O Messenger of Allaah!". So Allaah’s Messenger said: "And how is that?" I said: "When we are with you, you remind us of the Fire and of Paradise and it is as if we are seeing it with our eyes. Then when we depart from you and attend to our wives, children and business then much of this slips from our minds". So Allaah’s Messenger said: "By Him in whose Hand is my soul if you remained continually as you are when you are with me and in remembering (Allaah) then the angels would shake hands with you upon your beds and upon your roads. But O Hanzalah, (there is) a time for this and a time for that, (there is) a time for this and a time for that, (there is) a time for this and a time for that"

    Reported by Muslim (Eng.Trans.) vol.4, p.l436, no.6623

    What's this gotta do with this thread, everything. Let us see what Allah talks about taqwa.

    So fear Allah as much as you can; listen and obey and spend in charity for the benefit of your own soul and those saved from the covetousness of their own souls. They are the ones that achieve prosperity.

    At Taghabun 16.

    Lowering down the gaze is a command of Allah. It deals with taqwa [the mindfulness of Allah].

    If you can be muttaqi 24/7, good for you, but please refer to the hadeeth above if you can't.

    If not, console your heart and listen to what Allah says in At Taghabun.

    And when you commit the sin, repent and then look at how Allah consoles you:

    Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! DO NOT DESPAIR of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives ALL SINS: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful". Now lest we become confused again into thinking we can do whatever we want without reckoning, Allah says next: "So Turn to our Lord (in repentance) and submit to Him, before the Penalty comes on you, then you cannot be helped." (39:53-54)

    No one's at fault. You do the crime, you do the time.

    Hey mod Fi Sabilillah! I got some hadeeth and translation here! . Aren't you proud of me?

    [oh no! do I sound love to hear my voice, again?]
    Last edited by Takumi; 01-26-2006 at 04:27 AM.
    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Takumi Nakashima
    WattaquLlah(a) wa yu'allimukumuLlah(u)
    (Be Mindful of Allah and He will teach you)

  14. #11
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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Halima View Post
    Thank you for the suggestion.

    However I think there is a gray area here. Since most shorts come above the knee then right off the bat violates the man's dress code. Hence what is the man's dress code? The man's dress code is from the navel to knee. So when he is standing that will expose his lower thigh and that is not sufficent enough to cover his knees. Till this day I have not seen shorts that are made to the knees...lol Or have you seen it?

    Yeah, the professional tennis player Rafael Nadal from Spain wears those pants. He calls them "pirates".
    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Takumi Nakashima
    WattaquLlah(a) wa yu'allimukumuLlah(u)
    (Be Mindful of Allah and He will teach you)

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    Halima's Avatar
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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Takumi View Post
    There are several scenarios that I've seen.

    (1) Some hijaabis just drool over the shaykh after he finishes his lecture. I didn't see them lowering down their gaze. Maybe asking question is permissible. So, it's the shaykh's fault? Or maybe some hijaabi's were droolling over Hamza Yusuf asking him to sign his book.

    [I saw those hijaabi because they went down from their seats at the back to meet the shaykh. In front of everyone.]

    (2) Some muslim men talk freely with the lady cashiers at Wal Mart but when he speaks to a hijaabi, he lowers down his gaze. You see this a lot at some masajid.

    (3) Many women just stared at those nasheed artists while they are performing their songs.



    First and foremost,

    Please don't tell me you are taking this from a man's perspective (as always very common for a man to take it from his own perspective) *not thinking out of the box* Anyways, The majority of the scenarios were practially about the 'woman not lowering her gaze'. After Allah(swt) has strongly emphasized for us not to be dressing in a trash manner how did all of a sudden switch to our so called weakness of not lowering the gaze? So are you meaning to tell me that women cannot only dress modestly but they cannot lower their gaze aswell? Strange phenomenon. I will not deny the fact that women do those things because that is human nature. Like I said before we all have strong urges and desires that arouse us inside whenever we look at someone of the opposite sex that may attract us. Thats everyone inculded. Men, women, teenagers, old people adults when I say everyone I mean everyone. Your little observation is merely a third of all muslim women. If women do this so much why has Allah inscribed in the Quran that we have to cover from head to toe? If we women are so weak and fragile inside why hasn't Allah directed for the men to dress in complete attire? When men see a woman's arwah they go crazy and here you are just talking about the women drooling. Men have stronger desires then women but yet we are still expected to follow the same rules to lower the gaze both men and women. It's about time you have posted a hadith to prove your point. Allahu Ahkbar.
    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Do your charity in the name of Da'wah and help us out

    Insha'Allah Khair.



  16. #13
    Takumi's Avatar
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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Halima View Post
    First and foremost,

    Please don't tell me you are taking this from a man's perspective (as always very common for a man to take it from his own perspective) *not thinking out of the box* Anyways, The majority of the scenarios were practially about the 'woman not lowering her gaze'. After Allah(swt) has strongly emphasized for us not to be dressing in a trash manner how did all of a sudden switch to our so called weakness of not lowering the gaze? So are you meaning to tell me that women cannot only dress modestly but they cannot lower their gaze aswell? Strange phenomenon. I will not deny the fact that women do those things because that is human nature. Like I said before we all have strong urges and desires that arouse us inside whenever we look at someone of the opposite sex that may attract us. Thats everyone inculded. Men, women, teenagers, old people adults when I say everyone I mean everyone. Your little observation is merely a third of all muslim women. If women do this so much why has Allah inscribed in the Quran that we have to cover from head to toe? If we women are so weak and fragile inside why hasn't Allah directed for the men to dress in complete attire? When men see a woman's arwah they go crazy and here you are just talking about the women drooling. Men have stronger desires then women but yet we are still expected to follow the same rules to lower the gaze both men and women. It's about time you have posted a hadith to prove your point. Allahu Ahkbar.
    Peace be upon you Moderator Halima,

    You were not there, were you? So, don't criticize how I write my views, criticize the issue. It's not in your jurisdiction, if I may say so. Thanks.

    The issue was epitomized succintly, if I might say, you do the crime, you do the time. Those little observations were there as a preamble to my post. It's not the main content, okay?

    Now, if you wish to criticize the way I designed my post, by all means. But, don't assume anything about what I think. [re:So are you meaning to tell me that women cannot only dress modestly but they cannot lower their gaze aswell?

    If I had chosen the word drooling to illustrate my point about men, will you be writing the post above? I write and I use adjectives to desribe what I saw, if you believe such adjectives were inappropriately used, say so. I'd be more than willing to accept your alternatives.

    I'm not talking about only women, I also posted a scenario about men. Whatever I chose to use to describe it, it's MY choice, right?

    Okay, fine, would it have made a difference if I had posted another scenario for men, so that we have 2 scenarios for men and 2 scenarios for women?

    (4) Drooling men watching TV and those commercials.

    [guys, be sensible okay, this is only an observation. You should know that not all men are like that, right? ]

    What is your substance here? The way I wrote my post or the content of my post?

    You're right that men and women have to lower down their gaze, did I mention anywhere in my post that they don't have to? In fact, I didn't even generalize any gender. Now, the burden of proof is on you.

    I'm not obligated to post any hadeeth to prove my point. My point was clear and it was supported by the requirement of this forum:

    You do the sin, you repent. I did not specify any gender, did I?
    Last edited by Takumi; 01-26-2006 at 05:26 AM.
    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Takumi Nakashima
    WattaquLlah(a) wa yu'allimukumuLlah(u)
    (Be Mindful of Allah and He will teach you)

  17. #14
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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Salaam.

    So like men are to blame, and not the women? Get out of here Noor, you can't be serious.

    The eyes take in everything. No denying it. If something catches them, they may gaze for longer. The idea that the second intentional look is Haraam, says something. Ofcourse, I'm not making any excuses, or shifting the blame onto the other side like some. The real world is just a little different.
    Last edited by Z; 01-26-2006 at 05:25 AM.
    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Got a question, or got something in general to say or ask me, drop me a line. Peace out!

    - Z.

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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z View Post
    Salaam.

    So like men are to blame, and not the women? Get out of here Noor, you can't be serious.The eyes take in everything. No denying it. If something catches them, they may gaze for longer. The idea that the second intentional look is Haraam, says something. Ofcourse, I'm not making any excuses, or shifting the blame onto the other side like some. The real world is just a little different.


    Z, my friend, you are right. Of course the fat man wont be able to resist the burger, but is it the burgers' fault?

    I suggest that man to think heavily about the consequences concerning his problem with eating fattening foods that damage his health. Instead he should refrain from such foods by surrounding himself with people who consume healthy rations and so forth.

    The problem, dear brother, lies with the fat man, not the burger.

    ---

    Last edited by Far7an; 01-26-2006 at 04:52 PM. Reason: no need to get personal
    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    "Faisbir sabran jameelan".Therefore endure with a goodly patience (70:05)

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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?



    Z, my friend, you are right. Of course the fat man wont be able to resist the burger, but is it the burgers' fault?

    looool, interesting choice of words

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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Salaam.

    I think you're not getting it. Both parties are to blame. Get out. Live in the real world. It isn't ideal for you I know, I'm so sorry.

    I guess you're only trying to say it's ok for women to dress how they want, because us men need to have our eyes down at all times. Yeah, guess that's just your point. Gee.
    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Got a question, or got something in general to say or ask me, drop me a line. Peace out!

    - Z.

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    BlissfullyJaded's Avatar
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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?



    I'd have to say both sides are to blame..
    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    "...You are my Walî in this world and in the Hereafter. Cause me to die as a Muslim, and join me with the righteous." [Surah Yusuf 101]

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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?



    Really?...I think you're not getting it. See, blameworthy is especially sensitive to each case. That is one part of the issue but not the centre.

    I believe that, brothers' who so easily chat up with non Muslim girls and have a problem when one of their sisters is struggling in her deen/haya and quickly point the demeaning finger at her is the root cause.

    Do you deny that males can be and are very influential?
    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    "Faisbir sabran jameelan".Therefore endure with a goodly patience (70:05)

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    Re: Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Salaam.

    With a cool head ... can I just ask what exactly is the point you are trying to make? I would like to agree with you.
    Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

    Got a question, or got something in general to say or ask me, drop me a line. Peace out!

    - Z.


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