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Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

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    Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem (OP)


    Salaams

    Pioneers species occur when a glacier melts and, and then lichens form on morains that the glacier has deposited, when the pioneer speices die they the decompose to form humus whihch provides nutrients thta enable mosses to clolonnise and so and son omn until thier is massive woodland.

    I was thinkning to myself that could this happen by tise3lf or was there somthing in the glacier that enabled the lichens to grow like a seed, becasue how possible could life form on itself i on a dry tone like a morain.

    Is this how evolution began?

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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

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    format_quote Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz View Post
    i do belive that there is only one god and that is allah.

    Sorry about my questions brother i am just having trouble bleiving that a plant can grow on its own without and nutirents a a soil free rock such as a moraine.
    for starters I am a sister

    I have already given you an example how spores can live in honey, why is it difficult to imagine that they live on glacier or in bat caves undisturbed for millions of yrs?

    why must there be a reterat of a glacier to make this possible?

    Was there seeds on the morine, did the glacier depsoit seeds or something?

    I don't know why glaciers are important for this, but as I have given you an example that there are thermopilic organisms surviving only in extreme heat or extreme acid, there must be others with opposite traits needing extreme cold.. I really don't know.. I have a general concept and I apply it, but again I am not a botanist!
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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem




    bro faisal, lets just look at the concept of living organisms. The main one being the living cell. This is made up of proteins which are made up of amino acids, and i'm not sure - maybe you're aware that atheists say this cell came to life by chance by non living matter.


    But let's look at the possibility of a protein forming on this earth by chance;

    If there really was organic living cells on the planet at one time, there was no Ozone layer to protect them. So the cells would be bombarded with UV rays which would destroy the living cells. So the chance would be extremely low [it would be the fraction of 1 over 10, to the power 300 - 300 zeros after it)] whereas in mathematics, 1 over 10 to the power 50 (50 zeros after it) is an impossible probability.

    So the probability of a cell coming to life by non life is more impossible than impossible itself! [Let alone the possibility of it surviving and forming into other more complex organisms for such a long time period without being destroyed
    on a chaotic planet (the earth had alot of volcanic eruptions and chemical reactions [causing destruction] at that time)!]


    http://www.islamicboard.com/dawah/134272121-muslims-vs-atheists-our-foundations-debate-2.html#post1050839


    That's just one example of how strong the arguments of the atheists really are. So always question their validity before taking their statements as fact.
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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    format_quote Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz View Post
    is there a need for a god for all this to happen?

    sorry for these questions, i just want to strengthen my iman
    Yes there is a need for God for all of this.. Life can only be granted through God-- you may think it is insignificant but it is not.. all the gears in the clock big or small need to work together for it to be functional and working!
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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    lol thank you SISTER, this has been very informative you have increased my iman and i thank you for that.

    i now realise that therte were seeds in the glacier that when depsoted casued the seeds to pop out and germinate.
    i need to give you some rep, errr how do i do that again?
    W.Sallams
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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada - View Post



    bro faisal, lets just look at the concept of living organisms. The main one being the living cell. This is made up of proteins which are made up of amino acids, and i'm not sure - maybe you're aware that atheists say this cell came to life by chance by non living matter.


    But let's look at the possibility of a protein forming on this earth by chance;

    If there really was organic living cells on the planet at one time, there was no Ozone layer to protect them. So the cells would be bombarded with UV rays which would destroy the living cells. So the chance would be extremely low [it would be the fraction of 1 over 10, to the power 300 - 300 zeros after it)] whereas in mathematics, 1 over 10 to the power 50 (50 zeros after it) is an impossible probability.

    So the probability of a cell coming to life by non life is more impossible than impossible itself! [Let alone the possibility of it surviving and forming into other more complex organisms for such a long time period without being destroyed
    on a chaotic planet (the earth had alot of volcanic eruptions and chemical reactions [causing destruction] at that time)!]


    http://www.islamicboard.com/dawah/134272121-muslims-vs-atheists-our-foundations-debate-2.html#post1050839


    That's just one example of how strong the arguments of the atheists really are. So always question their validity before taking their statements as fact.
    wouldnt the plants evolve though?
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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    and werent there clees before us, for e.g. dinosours, how did they survive?
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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    lol, I'm not sure how glaciers came into this either.
    Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    format_quote Originally Posted by Banu_Hashim View Post
    lol, I'm not sure how glaciers came into this either.
    ithink when the glaciers melted they lft begind gravel depsotes such as moraines and the morains probbaly contined seeds which casued them to germinate when exposed to the sunlight
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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    format_quote Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz View Post
    wouldnt the plants evolve though?

    Plants and animals can evolve to an extent, but the idea of all species coming from one common ancestor is false, and even evolutionists cannot prove any of this.

    I'll explain a simple point which evolutionists can't totally address with ease; If so much animals evolved, some got extinct - these animals could have been like half fish, half bird - so why don't we find their fossils now? Surely they got extinct so there should have been quite a few thousand atleast. Since it took them stages for that fish to become a bird etc. So where have they vanished? Did ALL them fossils vanish totally from the face of the earth, or maybe it just never happened?



    There's two types of evolution;

    Micro Evolution (the small evolution) doesn't contradict Islamic teachings. For example, if there are 2 giraffes - 1 with a small neck and 1 with a long neck - its more likely the long necked one will survive if there are taller trees. So this rule of survival does not contradict Islam, so long as you believe that it is a pattern in Allah's creation. Meaning - the taller giraffe's descendants are more likely to survive [since they will be taller] compared to the shorter necked species.



    Macro Evolution (the big evolution [where species become from 'one to the other'] is discussed here:

    http://seemyparadigm.webs.com/evolution.htm


    He says:
    To making comparisons, some try to enter the fossil record as proof for common descent, the argument goes, that fossils show up in certain layers of ground which in term are linked to certain eras in time. If you then make a timetable of which time the fossilized creatures lived in, it matches the timetable that common descent proposes. Well first of all, that's hardly any proof, all it does is proof which creatures lived at which time, it doesn't proof which evolved into which. Creationists might just as well claim that this proves when certain animals were created. The fossil record does not favor common descent over creation. In fact quite the opposite can be said, the fossil has many issues that reflect bad on common descent. Like the cambrian explosion. and era where there's a sudden high concentration of entirely new species, as opposed to the slower pace of other eras. Another problem are the large number of missing links. There are so many proposed intermediate species missing, that some scientists have started suggesting that rather then a slow step by step evolution, there must have been "jumps" to. But that's of course very unlikely. A mutation that carries benefit is in itself unlikely, many mutations at once that carry some benefit is close to impossible. Other than that it needs to be noted that there's a lot of controversy regarding the accuracy of dating fossils. I wouldn't go as far as saying that it's all a hoax, but it does need a lot of work.
    http://www.islamicboard.com/dawah/13...ml#post1050831
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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    format_quote Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz View Post
    lol thank you SISTER, this has been very informative you have increased my iman and i thank you for that.

    i now realise that therte were seeds in the glacier that when depsoted casued the seeds to pop out and germinate.
    i need to give you some rep, errr how do i do that again?
    W.Sallams


    I don't need reps.. I want you to understand how science works better since Allah swt favors his scientist servants over the others and for just such reasons.. the wonder of creation..

    I recommend you purchase this book to understand better pls because it is such an expansive topic and I can't nor really have the patience to dedicate to it such a great length of time..

    You'll really enjoy this book I guarantee

    On Growth and Form
    By Dr. D'Arcy Thompson

    you need to understand that spores have a very hard exterior and extremely resistant to environmental and ecological changes.. but at the same time they are very simple organisms, they don't need much to survive or to thrive..

    hope that halps insha'Allah

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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    format_quote Originally Posted by Faisal Pervaiz View Post
    and werent there clees before us, for e.g. dinosours, how did they survive?



    By feeding off other organisms?
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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    thanks
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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada - View Post
    Plants and animals can evolve to an extent, but the idea of all species coming from one common ancestor is false, and even evolutionists cannot prove any of this.

    I'll explain a simple point which evolutionists can't totally address with ease; If so much animals evolved, some got extinct - these animals could have been like half fish, half bird - so why don't we find their fossils now? Surely they got extinct so there should have been quite a few thousand atleast. Since it took them stages for that fish to become a bird etc. So where have they vanished? Did ALL them fossils vanish totally from the face of the earth, or maybe it just never happened?



    There's two types of evolution;

    Micro Evolution (the small evolution) doesn't contradict Islamic teachings. For example, if there are 2 giraffes - 1 with a small neck and 1 with a long neck - its more likely the long necked one will survive if there are taller trees. So this rule of survival does not contradict Islam, so long as you believe that it is a pattern in Allah's creation. Meaning - the taller giraffe's descendants are more likely to survive [since they will be taller] compared to the shorter necked species.



    Macro Evolution (the big evolution [where species become from 'one to the other'] is discussed here:

    http://seemyparadigm.webs.com/evolution.htm


    He says:
    To making comparisons, some try to enter the fossil record as proof for common descent, the argument goes, that fossils show up in certain layers of ground which in term are linked to certain eras in time. If you then make a timetable of which time the fossilized creatures lived in, it matches the timetable that common descent proposes. Well first of all, that's hardly any proof, all it does is proof which creatures lived at which time, it doesn't proof which evolved into which. Creationists might just as well claim that this proves when certain animals were created. The fossil record does not favor common descent over creation. In fact quite the opposite can be said, the fossil has many issues that reflect bad on common descent. Like the cambrian explosion. and era where there's a sudden high concentration of entirely new species, as opposed to the slower pace of other eras. Another problem are the large number of missing links. There are so many proposed intermediate species missing, that some scientists have started suggesting that rather then a slow step by step evolution, there must have been "jumps" to. But that's of course very unlikely. A mutation that carries benefit is in itself unlikely, many mutations at once that carry some benefit is close to impossible. Other than that it needs to be noted that there's a lot of controversy regarding the accuracy of dating fossils. I wouldn't go as far as saying that it's all a hoax, but it does need a lot of work.
    http://www.islamicboard.com/dawah/13...ml#post1050831

    Why did Allahj create the Giraffe with the smaller neck in the first place?
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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    please answer brother
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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    No one can answer that for sure. Only Allah knows.
    Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    ‘Say: If the ocean were ink wherewith to write out the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted, even if We added another ocean like it.’~Al Qu'raan (18:109)

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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    You should reflect on the complexity of creation.. perhaps that is the lesson to be gained.. the impossibility of everything being a mere chance act.. what use would evolution have for a long necked creature with many micro-valves to maintain its blood pressure for instanc?e
    what would prompt a unicellular primitive organism to take on a few base pairs every few centuries or so to give you a giraffe or a rabbit or a dinosaur or a human and by what mechanism.. or where did this unicellular organism come from to begin with? How did it develop sentience? how did it know which combination of proteins would be functional and which are extraneous, why does this force impose death after it has fashioned such an amazing delicate process that favors life? can we replicate those mechanisms to understand the origins of life and origins of species.. without coming up with those grotesque robots that have neither grace nor function aside from their programming capabilities?

    I think if you reflect long and hard you'll realize that something beyond great caused all of these chain reactions .. and it is very humbling.. that it just can't be ignored..

    as I suggested for you do purchase On Growth and Form

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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem




    Remember that we said that it was possible that it could occur [and it wouldnt contradict islam] (if some antelopes evolved to giraffes) not that its fact.

    Even then, we know that Allah allows certain events to occur gradually, ie. He sends down rain which brings the dead earth come back to life with different fruits, flowers, vegetables for our human use - to show that indeed he gives life back to the dead. (atheists might ask why He doesnt give us food directly in a plate, whereas we know all this is for a greater wisdom.)

    Someone can even argue that Allah allowed animals to go through the survival of the fittest concept so that there would be longer living and healthier animals for the large human population in the world today. And that animals who werent as strong in the old days may need a less longer survival, so to be on the equilibrium of the food chain they never populated the world as much? because the world werent as highly populated with humans back then. And animals are provided from Allah for human benefit and survival. (this isnt fact but its possible.)
    Last edited by - Qatada -; 12-02-2008 at 02:35 PM.
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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    salem, wow hope you figure it all out people. Allahs awesomeness really being revealed in your discussion, He has the power to do everything, and it is easy for Him. Allahu Akbar
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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    Sop what you are saying is that Allah created a small giraffe knwing that it would evolve into a giraffe into a long neck, i thought genes didnt allow this, how did this evolve, if giraffes evolved like this cant apes also evolve like this into humans?
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    Re: Pioneer species - Evolutiuon problem

    Please answer brother
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