i don't have time to go into this in details, but i want to alert to the fact how people can be manipulative and if we aren't careful, this may cause us to stray...
Im sure we are all very well aware of keen Christians members who are invading our boards thinking they are doing something good and trying to get some kind of head swelling.
Firstly i will say from now, Christians (and people of other faiths) who respect Islam and Muslims are NOT included in the following. Do not wrong people who haven't wronged you and give credit where credit is due. it should be noted and it is known that not all Christians/non-Muslims intend bad, and there are stories (and experienced first hand) of Christians/non-Muslims who respect Islam and Muslims, even to the extent on spending their wealth in our cause, may Allah guide and grant them the highest level of Jannah.
Rather what im referring to in this thread, is the tactics used by those who intent ill towards Islam and Muslims. The point im trying to raise, is to be knowledgeable and alert about The way they may go about this. This is not your average preaching/debate/discussion...this is something (disturbingly) more.
They will say, question and imply things in such ways that appeal to your natural senses and/or your personal logic such as (the all famous) love..also justice...and well basically anything that is logical and appealing to the human mind.
Another good example is some peoples argument that hell is injustice....or with women being oppressed by wearing their hijabs, etc or about stoning, or the execution of the apostate...or Warfare in Islam.
They say things in such away that is alluring and/or will make us think twice about what we believe in, without even realizing it. don't let people easily play with your mind like this. also, don't get on an emotional high when replying to these people either (another result of their tactics...and also they thrive on this).
Some people are sick like this. 8/10 times these types of people deep down actually know and acknowledge The Truth, however due to their arrogance and love for this dunya, they will refuse to believe. They know by stubbornly refusing the truth they are doomed and want to drag you down with them.
this is NOT inclusive to online btw. you will run into people like this offline as well. you need to be double careful here, because being in presence of someone is more affective than merely talking to them through a barrier.
We must be careful for we could be risking adding/subtracting to the deen without knowledge. we are ready to accept something from someone unknown to us, and yet are ready to disregard what from is known to us. does this make sense to you? is it logical? explain to me how it is.
Im not saying that we should be suspicious and question peoples hearts. leave that and concentrate on yourself, which brings me to my next point...
How to tackle this: knowledge knowledge knowledge of your deen. reason being becuase if someone comes along and you are trialled though them, it should make NO difference to you how or what they say becuase you would have the knowledge of what conforms to what Allah and his Rasool, sallahu aleyhi wa sallam approve of. So it makes no difference to you who is trying to incite away from your deen, becuase knowledge alone is sufficient enough to repel their evil and take no heed to what they say. "automatically" you are going to "weigh up" whatever is said to you...whatever conforms to the sunnah, you will find that you accept it and what doesn't, you will find that your reject it, inshallah.
So (this has nothing to do with the above example btw) if someone says something like: "I cant believe the one you worship doesn't love everyone ...the god i worship does "
[see, how they are trying to mess with your head by the way they are wording it and trying to make you feel stupid (which, in turn, will compel you and put doubts in your mind regarding your faith?)]
Then naturally, because of your knowledge you'd be "Ummm well yeah, that makes no sense because you haven't really done anything to earn it :><:"
As i said before, this is not about being suspicious (don't do that), but rather focusing on yourself inshallah is a good shield.
on the side: knowledge (especially in matters of Aqeedah and History) is also good to refute them.
At the end of day they're going to die and you're going to die and the only thing that matters is : Your Iman. that is what will save you, so don't let anyone take that from you. that's all it boils down to....your faith. as the hadith says: "who is your lord, who is your prophet and what is your deen." whose three questions is what life boils down to...what is you're answer going to be?
who cares what they say and how great they think they are...it makes no difference to us, inshaAllah.
Love is part of Christianity. It is our second most important commandment, so don't think Christians say it to try to convert anyone. You seem a bit paranoid.
i don't have time to go into this in details, but i want to alert to the fact how people can be manipulative and if we aren't careful, this may cause us to stray...
I really wouldn't worry about it sis.. there is nothing in christianity that is sensical or attractive to anyone!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
"entering paradise requires us to attain an unachievably high standard, as humans we will all make mistakes so we put our trust in our saviour jesus"
appealing to humans, cause lets face it who doesnt want to follow their desires and end up in heaven anyway?
but it begs the question. is god silly, why set standards that cant be achieved?
they also need to be reminded of the biblical verse mathew 5:20
"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
"entering paradise requires us to attain an unachievably high standard, as humans we will all make mistakes so we put our trust in our saviour jesus"
appealing to humans, cause lets face it who doesnt want to follow their desires and end up in heaven anyway?
but it begs the question. is god silly, why set standards that cant be achieved?
they also need to be reminded of the biblical verse mathew 5:20
"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
I very much doubt that your average christian reads 'the good book' before they argue of the good of its contents.. they'd rather sum it up in a new trend which I am sure will evolve as life goes on and Christianity becomes even more irrelevant and utterly illogical if that is further possible..
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I have been in a Christian forums before where I saw members there clearly incourage others to come to this forum (islamicboard.com) and try to play with Muslims' minds to have doubts about their Aqeedah.
So I am not surprised if this is already happenning here
I have been in a Christian forums before where I saw members there clearly incourage others to come to this forum (islamicboard.com) and try to play with Muslims' minds to have doubts about their Aqeedah.
So I am not surprised if this is already happenning here
That is christians merely giving themselves more credits than they deserve. To begin with Christianity came to them from the middle east, they are not going to understand it better than Muslims and secondly their whole 'salvation' is contingent on something no christian can explain, so they use alot of smoke and mirror about 'love' which obviously they can't reconcile as to why their loving god would through billions of others in the abyss for not accepting that he got suckered by a couple of provincial morons who crucified him for their sins or why by the same token he'd accept a christian like Hitler into his paradise for simply believing in the mangod fiasco...
It is silly from beginning to end so let them have their moments if that makes them feel better!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
to be honest i'm feeling the majority of christians who join this forum and who are already a member come with a hidden agenda and that is to convert people to there illogical belief that isa peace and blessings be upon him is god and we will all go to heaven with a slap on the wrist for our ill deeds, and it is obvious sometimes when they put little hints in there posts that islam is oppressive and wrong.
You raised very important issue and i think muslims need to seek as much knowledge as they can so we can tackle this, including myself.
Wow. I have never been on a religious forum where people are so full of bias and resentment. I am sorry that you have had bad experiences, but so have we all. When I read the user agreement for this website, I thought that it would be a good forum because it is about promoting Islam as being peaceful. I would say that about 50% of the posts I have read are peaceful Do people not understand that Christians don't call themselves Muslims because they have different beliefs?
Wow. I have never been on a religious forum where people are so full of bias and resentment.
I take it this is the first forum of which you became a member? No Muslim here has lasted on a christian or Atheist forum for more than three days.. want to see bias, intolerance and pure hatred, try starting with catholic forums or dawking's net or the humanists manifesto etc. etc .. but then again, you'd probably not view your fellow Christians as pederast bigots when they kill overseas and then protest against others who hold different religious convictions, when you share their views..
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I take it this is the first forum of which you became a member? No Muslim here has lasted on a christian or Atheist forum for more than three days.. want to see bias, intolerance and pure hatred, try starting with catholic forums or dawking's net or the humanists manifesto etc. etc .. but then again, you'd probably not view your fellow Christians as pederast bigots when they kill overseas and then protest against others who hold different religious convictions, when you share their views..
all the best
Please tell me which sites you went on. The ones I have been on have regular Muslim members and those who insult other religions are suspended or banned. The humanists forum I would never go on- they are beyond reasoning and humanism isn't a religion anyway. Being white doesn't make one a Christian, neither does killing or protesting against other religions. Christians who are like that though, I would put into the category of extremists.
Your "logic" can be used against any country/religion by the way.
Please tell me which sites you went on. The ones I have been on have regular Muslim members and those who insult other religions are suspended or banned. The humanists forum I would never go on- they are beyond reasoning and humanism isn't a religion anyway. Being white doesn't make one a Christian, neither does killing or protesting against other religions. Christians who are like that though, I would put into the category of extremists.
Your "logic" can be used against any country/religion by the way.
I have been to all I have mentioned and more.. sometimes merely holding a differing point of view than someone is viewed as insulting, and that in their mind is call for immediate ban, we have had christian members here who have done every disgusting thing under the sun, from privately PMing members to overtly insulting the prophet and the Quran in that sanctimonious (I am all about love and full of questions) style and still managed to be on here 3-4 years.
I am sure every group is guilty of something, but those guilty under false pretenses are the worst in my book, or do you find that hypocrisy is a forgivable sin, since God loves everyone?
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
The root of the problem here is that people do not tolerate other people's beliefs. Unfortunately, that is almost a precondition of religion, and it happens on all sides. The OP made the point of saying that Islam is "The Truth" and that there are others who refuse to acknowledge it. The way I see it, that is also part of the problem.
I grant you that since we are on a Muslim site, that the appearance is that people are infiltrating this board and attempting to "corrupt" Muslims. And I'm sure a good part of that is true. But I'm also certain that it works the other way. For reasons I have yet to figure out, religious people of ALL faiths have this NEED, this driving force of constant pestering, that FORCES them to share their views and tell you how wrong YOU are and how right THEY are.
If you are secure in your faith, then you have nothing to worry about. That's all there is to it. You do not have to concern yourself with straying from your religion if it is strong enough. On the flip side, there is no reason to promote your own beliefs to others. They have their set of beliefs already. Just be content with the life you live, and everyone else should be left alone.
The root of the problem here is that people do not tolerate other people's beliefs. Unfortunately, that is almost a precondition of religion, and it happens on all sides. The OP made the point of saying that Islam is "The Truth" and that there are others who refuse to acknowledge it. The way I see it, that is also part of the problem.
I grant you that since we are on a Muslim site, that the appearance is that people are infiltrating this board and attempting to "corrupt" Muslims. And I'm sure a good part of that is true. But I'm also certain that it works the other way. For reasons I have yet to figure out, religious people of ALL faiths have this NEED, this driving force of constant pestering, that FORCES them to share their views and tell you how wrong YOU are and how right THEY are.
If you are secure in your faith, then you have nothing to worry about. That's all there is to it. You do not have to concern yourself with straying from your religion if it is strong enough. On the flip side, there is no reason to promote your own beliefs to others. They have their set of beliefs already. Just be content with the life you live, and everyone else should be left alone.
An interfaith dialog is extremely difficult to conduct. Each of us has strong reason to believe the faith we follow is the correct one and the only true worship of God(swt). We do have a feeling of paranoia that people with different views come with the purpose of leading us away from the truth. While this is a stumbling block it is one that can be overcome. The somewhat strict rules we enforce are hopefully a step to place an understanding on how strongly we believe what we believe and that we will not allow any opportunity for those who attempt to lead any Muslim away from Islam. While it may at times seem to be unfair to non-Muslims, it must be understood this is an Islamic Forum and our goal is to bring about an understanding of what we as Muslims are about. If we could sum up our agenda in a single phrase that phrase would be "Do not believe all the media portrays us to be."
While a person may disagree with what we believe, let the disagreement be related to what we really do believe and not what the media says we believe.
We also understand that this is a very small world and as populations shift and grow there will be more interaction between Muslims and non-Muslims. Perhaps we can learn enough about each other that this escalated interaction can be an opportunity for peaceful co-existence. We do want to know what non-Muslims expect from us and we want non-Muslims to know what we expect from them. Maybe our feeble attempts at communication and through the will of Allaah(swt) our differences can be met with tolerance and not hatred or fear of each other. Let none of us become aggressors and all of us learn to treat all of humanity with fairness and honesty.
We (The we being each and every member) are a small group with high hopes and will always be facing growing pains and making errors. But, we can all learn how to disagree without malice and not be aggressors.
Islam is all about Peace and we are givers not takers. We will never agree over many issues of faith, but we all can learn not to deliberately offend each other, for the sole purpose of offending, and that is a baby step in the direction of peaceful co-existence. Muslims have a very long history of peaceful coexistence with people of other faiths, and that need not end because we are now in the 21st Century. We will never accept each others beliefs, but that need not become a barrier stopping us from treating each other fairly.
I agree with all of what you said, Woodrow. But if what you said is ever to come to fruition, they have to have the proper agenda. I'm interested in learning about all types of religions, though I personally don't follow any closely.
However the vast majority of religious people who are willing to engage in these discussions have an alternative agenda. And that agenda is always finding a way to get more people to follow their line of thinking. For some reason, despite the fact that all devoutly religious people feel that they know the "truth", they are not content. They are not content until everyone else agrees with them.
Let me ask something to the people who are willing to respond:
Do you feel that someone of a different religious faith will go to Hell when they die? And if so, do you feel the need to "help them"?
The answers to those questions tells you all you need to know about the state of people and their religious belief.
I agree with all of what you said, Woodrow. But if what you said is ever to come to fruition, they have to have the proper agenda. I'm interested in learning about all types of religions, though I personally don't follow any closely.
However the vast majority of religious people who are willing to engage in these discussions have an alternative agenda. And that agenda is always finding a way to get more people to follow their line of thinking. For some reason, despite the fact that all devoutly religious people feel that they know the "truth", they are not content. They are not content until everyone else agrees with them.
Let me ask something to the people who are willing to respond:
Do you feel that someone of a different religious faith will go to Hell when they die? And if so, do you feel the need to "help them"?
The answers to those questions tells you all you need to know about the state of people and their religious belief.
David I have no way of knowing whomwill go to hell. I am incapable of reading what is in another person's heart. I do know that Allaah(swt) is all merciful and no person will enter hell unless they deserve to. While I believe all non-Muslims are on the path to Hellfire, I can not say or know they will enter into hell. While I am certain all who die as Muslims will enter Heaven, I can not say who will die as a Muslim. I am quite certain that a person who has never had the opportunity to learn about Islam will not be judged for failing to accept Islam.
Do I feel a need to guide a person toward Islam. Yes.
Do I have the right to impose my beliefs upon others no.
My guiding others to Islam is done by my trying to set an example of what it means to be Muslim through my life style and leave myself open to answer any and all questions if a person desires to ask me any.
I have been in a Christian forums before where I saw members there clearly incourage others to come to this forum (islamicboard.com) and try to play with Muslims' minds to have doubts about their Aqeedah.
So I am not surprised if this is already happenning here
that thread of yours should be a sticky thread in this section and in the comparative religion section. I've seen that thread that you started a long time ago. its stupid and also very immature (not your thread, what they do). i mean what do they say in their forums "oh hey we have no lives lets go invade Islamic boards...maybe it'll make us feel smart tee hee hee "
I did actually (when first studying Islam) get caught up in this kind of stuff. Especially on some of those websites by Christian Missionaries (or so called "Ex-Muslims") and it took my Imaan right to the ground. Only did I ask Allah(swt) for guidance, go back on those websites and trace their allegations right back to their sources. Along with this, I did something (which I doubt alot of misinformed people do) which is look for what "Islam's reply to this is".
So I took alot of my time out to study it, looked at all the sources, from all the angles and in the end felt like an absolute idiot for believing something that was off weak sources, twisted meanings and ALOT of important information never mentioned. (Some websites like answering islam, some of the Hadiths were made up, I literally tried Googling it from word to word and nothing came up, unless ofcourse they decided to change the wordings of the Hadith or something).
It's sad, but I see how Muslims fall for this because they try to present lies in a way that makes it seem to you as if they are truthful, or they present the truth in a way that would make it seem like lies to you; and sadly the people that fall victim to this are the one's that never "think for themselves", never inquire, never do double checkings on it or even check what the non-Muslim unbiased sources say.
Mashallah after going through all these "islam refute" sites and being able to refute them with much ease might I add, my Imaan shot right up
Now, I hardly ever lose an arguement, if someone says something, I'm down to answer back or thoroughly research it and present the truth back to them. After all this, what fascinates you the most about Islam is a) It's perfection and b) It's answers to everything.
Anyways, moral of the story; Think for yourself, research it (even if the Imam tells you something you should research it) and with knowledge and Allah(swt)'s guidance, nothing will be able to hinder you. Islam's honestly just too complete for that lol.
And If I'm honest, not alot of people fall for it indefinitly, most Muslims can think Mashallah, if something doesn't add up (because some allegations are just stupid lol; "why would you put this in there? Atleast try to make it sound realistic, 1.7 billion people follow this religion and this is the best you can come up with?") they would no doubt inquire about it and find the truth for themselves.
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
Let me ask something to the people who are willing to respond:
Do you feel that someone of a different religious faith will go to Hell when they die? And if so, do you feel the need to "help them"?
The answers to those questions tells you all you need to know about the state of people and their religious belief.
Asalaamu Alaikum(peace be ith you),
This isn't Christianity where everyone is saved. In Islam, even the Muslims aren't garanteed Heaven, for everyone is held accountable for his/her own deeds.
"Allah will not leave the believers in the state in which you are now, until He distinguished the wicked from the good." [Soorah al-Imran (3): 179]
"Alif-Laam-Meem. Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: 'We believe,' and will not be tested?" [Soorah al-Ankaboot (29): 1-3]
Next, when it comes to preaching;
"AND TELL My servants that they should speak in the most kindly manner [unto those who do not share their beliefs]: verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men - for, verily, Satan is man's open foe!" (17:53)
“Say: O you who reject faith, I do not worship what you worship, nor do you worship what I worship...To you be your religion, and to me be mine" [109:1-6]
^Speaks for itself, and I haven't even mentioned the no compulsion in religion verse. People who keep irritating etc. Aren't really following the religious teachings of Islam are they? If it happens to you, then something new learned today; just quote them the above verses.
But, we Muslims do have a duty.
"So if they argue with you, say, "I have submitted myself to Allah [in Islam], and [so have] those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture and [to] the unlearned, "Have you submitted yourselves?" And if they submit [in Islam], they are rightly guided; but if they turn away - then upon you is only the [duty of] notification. And Allah is Seeing of [His] servants." (3:20)
^Notification is the key word here, nothing wrong with that right, nothing wrong with notifying someone of the truth right? Especially if they reject it, then we can go our seperate ways. - That's Islam.
Last edited by Perseveranze; 12-24-2010 at 10:51 PM.
Anyways, moral of the story; Think for yourself, research it (even if the Imam tells you something you should research it) and with knowledge and Allah(swt)'s guidance, nothing will be able to hinder you. Islam's honestly just too complete for that lol.
i respectfully disagree with this. the Muslim should be that if islam tells you something, you should submit to it no questions asked. of course its good to research it (through the help of reliable scholars) as to understand it better if need be, but we should have that iman and love Allah and his rasool sallahu alehi wa sallam so much that we reject or accept anything without (unhealthy/overally) questioning it. if it comes from allah or his rasool, there should be no final say on our part, inshallah.
...desperate for husnul-khitaam...
please make dua that Allah grants me a good end (to my life). please make dua that Allah guides me.
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Do people not understand that Christians don't call themselves Muslims because they have different beliefs?
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