I came across an interesting book that puts forth some thought provoking ideas. While one could apply them to any aspect of life, including one's religious views, they weren't written with that in mind, so I'm not encouraging anyone to read anything of that sort into them.
The big thesis is that we all practice a little bit of self-deception, fooling ourselves into believing things that we know are not true, but living with them as if they were and blithely ignoring the internal conflict an act such as lying to one's self should produce.
The author, Ten Elshof, says, "If you caught yourself in the lie, you'd miss out on the satisfaction that comes from believing, really believing, [the lie you're hanging onto in that moment]." He says, "Life offers me a deal. … The beliefs I have about myself and others do not need to be true to bring me satisfaction. I only need to believe them." He thus candidly concludes, "So it shouldn't be a shock to us that many have taken the deal. … And what's alarming is that, had I taken the deal [of managing to actually believe things in the face of evidence to the contrary] it would seem to me … that I had not."
Convoluted thinking? Yes. But how else, other than convoluted thinking, are we going to be able to get away with the act of self-deception?
Elshof suggests people deceive themselves in at least five ways: 1.Attention management. We selectively pay attention only to the claims that accord with our perception of the truth—and ignore all the data that threaten to undo it. 2. Procrastination. We say (my words not Ten Elshof's), "It's okay for me not to do that now because I will do that soon," when in reality we have not resolved to get that done. 3. Perspective switching. We borrow the perspective of others, as King David apparently did when for more than a year he looked at himself quite guiltlessly from the vantage point of those who had no idea of his complicity in the murder of Uriah. 4. Rationalization. We justify ourselves with irrelevant reasons that don't truly apply to the situation. 5. Re-sentiment. We re-order our sentiments by denying that we care about something dear to us or by somehow cloaking our vulnerability.
I came across an interesting book that puts forth some thought provoking ideas. While one could apply them to any aspect of life, including one's religious views, they weren't written with that in mind, so I'm not encouraging anyone to read anything of that sort into them.
The big thesis is that we all practice a little bit of self-deception, fooling ourselves into believing things that we know are not true, but living with them as if they were and blithely ignoring the internal conflict an act such as lying to one's self should produce.
The author, Ten Elshof, says, "If you caught yourself in the lie, you'd miss out on the satisfaction that comes from believing, really believing, [the lie you're hanging onto in that moment]." He says, "Life offers me a deal. … The beliefs I have about myself and others do not need to be true to bring me satisfaction. I only need to believe them." He thus candidly concludes, "So it shouldn't be a shock to us that many have taken the deal. … And what's alarming is that, had I taken the deal [of managing to actually believe things in the face of evidence to the contrary] it would seem to me … that I had not."
Convoluted thinking? Yes. But how else, other than convoluted thinking, are we going to be able to get away with the act of self-deception?
Elshof suggests people deceive themselves in at least five ways: 1.Attention management. We selectively pay attention only to the claims that accord with our perception of the truth—and ignore all the data that threaten to undo it. 2. Procrastination. We say (my words not Ten Elshof's), "It's okay for me not to do that now because I will do that soon," when in reality we have not resolved to get that done. 3. Perspective switching. We borrow the perspective of others, as King David apparently did when for more than a year he looked at himself quite guiltlessly from the vantage point of those who had no idea of his complicity in the murder of Uriah. 4. Rationalization. We justify ourselves with irrelevant reasons that don't truly apply to the situation. 5. Re-sentiment. We re-order our sentiments by denying that we care about something dear to us or by somehow cloaking our vulnerability.
Does that mean you've realized that you've been deceiving yourself about your faith? I hope so.
format_quote Originally Posted by Vale's Lily
that could indeed prove fruitful -- Let us know when you have shed the notion of a dying God then and let go of the self-deception!
The big thesis is that we all practice a little bit of self-deception, fooling ourselves into believing things that we know are not true, but living with them as if they were and blithely ignoring the internal conflict an act such as lying to one's self should produce.
Wow.
This perfectly apply in your situation, Grace Seeker.
I wonder how long you will keep ignoring all those conflicts in the bible and deceiving yourself to believe that it is true.
I know how that is... it brings a dull panic over my heart when thinking about what I believe in. I mean, I say I'm Christian on this board, but it's only because right now I relate to that faith the most. I can't say I'm something else or nothing at all. The matter being that my faith in knowing there is God is through the Bible, but... there are things in the Bible that my heart and mind can't believe because of a lack of logic. I know there are Christian brothers and sisters out there who probably feel sad seeing me write that, but it's true.
I just want to know the truth, and not deceive myself in order to feel all right about something that I know is most likely not true. More and more it makes me want to understand Islam, actually.
I came across an interesting book that puts forth some thought provoking ideas. While one could apply them to any aspect of life, including one's religious views, they weren't written with that in mind, so I'm not encouraging anyone to read anything of that sort into them.
Given that this thread is in the general section and not the comparative religions one, perhaps we can follow Grace Seekers suggestion to not read it specifically from a religious perspective (as so far everybody seems to have done)?
The big thesis is that we all practice a little bit of self-deception, fooling ourselves into believing things that we know are not true, but living with them as if they were and blithely ignoring the internal conflict an act such as lying to one's self should produce.
I suppose that we sometimes believe things we have been taught, and that unless we experience a moment of questioning or doubt, we are not even aware that what we believe is a lie.
In that instance we are not lying to ourselves, we are simply believing a lie. (Which I don't think is the same thing)
Once we realise that what we have believed is not true, we may still try to hang on to it by using the methos the author describes.
I guess letting go of something we believed to be true, and something which perhaps society around us believes to be true, can be very painful and hard. We might find ourselves isolated or ostracised as a result ...
I am trying to think of an example of something which I may have believed to be true in the past, but don't anymore.
Problem is, the only things I can think of are likely to be contentious or emotive and take this thread off topic. Perhaps I need a bit more time to think of a good example.
Elshof suggests people deceive themselves in at least five ways: 1.Attention management. We selectively pay attention only to the claims that accord with our perception of the truth—and ignore all the data that threaten to undo it. 2. Procrastination. We say (my words not Ten Elshof's), "It's okay for me not to do that now because I will do that soon," when in reality we have not resolved to get that done. 3. Perspective switching. We borrow the perspective of others, as King David apparently did when for more than a year he looked at himself quite guiltlessly from the vantage point of those who had no idea of his complicity in the murder of Uriah. 4. Rationalization. We justify ourselves with irrelevant reasons that don't truly apply to the situation. 5. Re-sentiment. We re-order our sentiments by denying that we care about something dear to us or by somehow cloaking our vulnerability.
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
I know how that is... it brings a dull panic over my heart when thinking about what I believe in. ... there are things in the Bible that my heart and mind can't believe because of a lack of logic.
I think you describe that feeling really well, sister.
That sense of panic that something which we have believed may not be true.
A sense of fear and loss of direction, uncertainty, insecurity ...
I think it requires us to step back, take time out, hear and read what others have to say, broaden our understanding, pray for guidance and finally (hopefully) find a place where we are sure about ourselves again, and where we can firmly and with conviction say 'I believe!'.
Despite being keen to keep this discussion beyond the religious arena (only because I fear it will simply lead to pointless debates rather than address the topic at hand), I have to say that I have had similar feelings and thoughts about some Bible passages, caadam, and my own journey has taken me to question and scrutinise them and to seek God about them, to study and understand them - and to find my own path.
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
The big thesis is that we all practice a little bit of self-deception, fooling ourselves into believing things that we know are not true, but living with them as if they were and blithely ignoring the internal conflict an act such as lying to one's self should produce.
How ironic...
Elshof suggests people deceive themselves in at least five ways:
1.Attention management. We selectively pay attention only to the claims that accord with our perception of the truth—and ignore all the data that threaten to undo it.
2. Procrastination. We say (my words not Ten Elshof's), "It's okay for me not to do that now because I will do that soon," when in reality we have not resolved to get that done.
3. Perspective switching. We borrow the perspective of others, as King David apparently did when for more than a year he looked at himself quite guiltlessly from the vantage point of those who had no idea of his complicity in the murder of Uriah.
4. Rationalization. We justify ourselves with irrelevant reasons that don't truly apply to the situation.
5. Re-sentiment. We re-order our sentiments by denying that we care about something dear to us or by somehow cloaking our vulnerability.
As you mentioned, this can apply to any aspect of life, especially nationalists. I will have to keep a mental note of this. XD
We humans are quite complex we all carry with us various systems of beliefs and attitudes, the development of these are a continuous growth process that is live long. The formation of beliefs (any belief) is quite complex. Before I address that I want to say a little about beliefs in general:
There are a minimum of 3 belief systems we each follow.
1. Proven Beliefs---These are things that are readily verifiable, replicable and carry indisputable proof based upon observable proof. Things such as "Water is a necessity for life" this can be verified by the fact living creatures die if they are deprived of water. and other observable factors.
2. Self Evident Beliefs-- These are things we take to be true with no evidence needed, most things in this category are simply definition. such as a triangle has 3 angles. It does not take much to see that is the definition of a triangle so therefore a triangle has 3 angles. But, things are not always that clear. We all carry with us beliefs that have never been challenged, we base our belief upon experience and projection of other things. We have never had these beliefs challenged so we live with the basic assumption they are true.
4. Hidden Beliefs--These are similar to self evident beliefs. this falls into the realm of things like "Common sense" "horse sense" etc. Like self evident beliefs they have never been challenged. But these are beliefs we do not even know we have until somebody makes a statement that challenges or contradicts them. They can be quite emotional, as we do not know we have the belief, but when somebody contradicts it we usually bet quite defensive and even angry. Our response is almost always on the emotional level and not based on logic.
Now going back and based upon what Grace Seeker posted. We all are capable of deceiving our selves.Self deception occurs in the conscious/proven level, but is made by us seeking means to alter some of our self evident beliefs and indirectly make new hidden beliefs. In order to prevent doing that we need to constantly seek verification and proof of all things. We also need to always be honest in all things, especially with us. Today's lie we fabricate just may turn into something we end up believing tomorrow. A good reason to avoid deceive others, because when we deceive others we eventually deceive ourselves.
Did anybody notice I typed 4 instead of 3 above. Did you believe it was a typo or did you hold off deciding until you read the entire post and got here and now know I did so deliberatly?
A good reason to avoid deceive others, because when we deceive others we eventually deceive ourselves.
Does this apply to pathological or compulsive liars?
Pathological liars attempt to deceive others without feeling remorse from what I understand. As for compulsive liars, these people lie without realising it or sometimes lie to make themselves feel good. In some cases, these people actually believe the lies that they tell until after a while.
Did anybody notice I typed 4 instead of 3 above. Did you believe it was a typo or did you hold off deciding until you read the entire post and got here and now know I did so deliberatly?
Despite being keen to keep this discussion beyond the religious arena (only because I fear it will simply lead to pointless debates rather than address the topic at hand), I have to say that I have had similar feelings and thoughts about some Bible passages, caadam, and my own journey has taken me to question and scrutinise them and to seek God about them, to study and understand them - and to find my own path.
Why not make a separate thread about them and we can discuss them and go over them one by one.
Why not make a separate thread about them and we can discuss them and go over them one by one.
That is just glo making a final plea to our new member in her own special way.. I am surprised the I have been on this forum for four whole years and a christian still hasn't reared its ugly head but I am sure there are more tactful ways around it or perhaps the PM system and CP can also prove of value!
if you are looking for a rational debate with a christian I honestly wouldn't count on it!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
That is just glo making a final plea to our new member in her own special way.. I am surprised the I have been on this forum for four whole years and a christian still hasn't reared its ugly head but I am sure there are more tactful ways around it or perhaps the PM system and CP can also prove of value!
if you are looking for a rational debate with a christian I honestly wouldn't count on it!
This thread is not about religious debate, Lily.
It isn't even in the comparative religions section ...
We have had many, many discussions and debates about Biblical issues in the CR section, and I disagree with you that there were not intelligent or rational. I have learnt and broadened my horizons and understandings and beliefs in this forum beyond my wildest imagination - by reading and engaging with the thoughts of others (Christians, Muslims and many others).
We have fabulous discussions and exchanges here - providing people can stay civil, be respectful towards each other and accept that others may have different viewpoints or beliefs ...
The issue Grace Seeker is raising in this thread (I think) is how our own beliefs can be challenged, and what happens when we allow our beliefs to be challenged.
Where do we go from there?
How do we admit our doubts and questions?
How do we move on from what we realise was wrong to something new and truer and purer?
Grace, am I understanding your original post correctly?
What is the title of the book you are referring to?
It sounds very interesting indeed.
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
This thread is not about religious debate, Lily.
It isn't even in the comparative religions section ...
and?
We have had many, many discussions and debates about Biblical issues in the CR section, and I disagree with you that there were not intelligent or rational. I have learnt and broadened my horizons and understandings and beliefs in this forum beyond my wildest imagination - by reading and engaging with the thoughts of others (Christians, Muslims and many others).
That is a little subjective-- what would you like me to do with your testimony?
We have fabulous discussions and exchanges here - providing people can stay civil, be respectful towards each other and accept that others may have different viewpoints or beliefs ...
Indeed!
The issue Grace Seeker is raising in this thread (I think) is how our own beliefs can be challenged, and what happens when we allow our beliefs to be challenged.
Where do we go from there?
How do we admit our doubts and questions?
How do we move on from what we realise was wrong to something new and truer and purer?
good to know..
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Anyone find it funny the number of people that post on this thread and immediately think it does not apply to them, but only those that believe differently than they do?
Anyone find it funny the number of people that post on this thread and immediately think it does not apply to them, but only those that believe differently than they do?
you are the only one, you must amuse easily!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
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