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Propaganda

  1. #1
    glo's Avatar Full Member
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    Propaganda

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    This afternoon something happened in this forum, which has been on my mind ever since.

    The traces of the incident have been (rightly) removed by the mods and I don't want to say anything which refers in detail to the deleted posts in question – so I will try to keep it general whilst conveying the issue I want to raise.

    * * *

    Somebody posted a reference to a video that touched on a topic which has been very close to my heart recently and which I feel quite emotional about.
    At the same time the same video called for violence in response to this emotive issue – something I would normally never, ever condone.

    And yet, because I feel so passionate and supportive of the emotive issue, all I could see was what I AGREED with and at the same time I simply ignored (or went along with) the things I totally DISAGREE with …

    I felt so convinced about it that I not only agreed with the one who had posted the reference, but went as far as putting up the offensive video MYSELF!!

    I have apologised and I have mulled the ensuing criticism and responses over ever since.

    * * *

    It occurs to me that this is a good example of how propaganda works: it captures the feelings and emotions of its audience and couples it with a suggestion or idea which may not have occurred to the audience initially.
    Then, by association, the two (feeling and idea) become intertwined and – before we know it – we adopt a belief or a suggestion, which wasn't ours to start with!

    I feel very humbled, because I had believed that I was beyond such mind games.
    Clearly I am not ...
    Propaganda

    Peace
    glocandle ani 1 - Propaganda

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]

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    Re: Propaganda

    A'uduhu billahi minash shaytaan ir rajeem.
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    Re: Propaganda

    I believe there is a hadith about the end of times where the Prophet pbuh said that if you were to see dajjal(anti christ). Run the other way. Do not think that you will not be affected by his tricks(something along those lines).

    Anyway.. I really think people are like sheep sometimes. A lot of times they just follow the crowd.. I find it interesting that many Prophets(pbut) were at one point in their lives shepherds..
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    Re: Propaganda

    format_quote Originally Posted by glo View Post
    This afternoon something happened in this forum, which has been on my mind ever since.

    The traces of the incident have been (rightly) removed by the mods and I don't want to say anything which refers in detail to the deleted posts in question – so I will try to keep it general whilst conveying the issue I want to raise.

    * * *



    Somebody posted a reference to a video that touched on a topic which has been very close to my heart recently and which I feel quite emotional about.
    At the same time the same video called for violence in response to this emotive issue – something I would normally never, ever condone.

    And yet, because I feel so passionate and supportive of the emotive issue, all I could see was what I AGREED with and at the same time I simply ignored (or went along with) the things I totally DISAGREE with …

    I felt so convinced about it that I not only agreed with the one who had posted the reference, but went as far as putting up the offensive video MYSELF!!

    I have apologised and I have mulled the ensuing criticism and responses over ever since.

    * * *



    It occurs to me that this is a good example of how propaganda works: it captures the feelings and emotions of its audience and couples it with a suggestion or idea which may not have occurred to the audience initially.
    Then, by association, the two (feeling and idea) become intertwined and – before we know it – we adopt a belief or a suggestion, which wasn't ours to start with!

    I feel very humbled, because I had believed that I was beyond such mind games.
    Clearly I am not ...
    you nailed it sis.

    Forgive yourself - you're human... we make mistakes, but if we can recognise them, and learn from them, then we can be doubly sure not to fall the same trap twice, right?

    Sis, you're one of my favourite people on this forum because I applaud your honesty, and humanity... and humanity is never perfect is it?

    I don't know what thread this was or what post - I'm not visiting here as much as before because I've had major visa problems with the indian high commission and embassy here, so I've been running around like a yoyo, back and forth between home and Islington, trying to get this mess sorted (hard knock life)

    Had I known, this crap was going down on the forum, I woulda posted my 2 rupees worth... not sure if that would count for something, (considering that the rupee is weak currency lol - sorry bad pun) but I got your back, you dhimmee (ok another crap joke)

    Just trying to make you smile sis my humour is silly - but you know I mean well.

    Scimi
    Last edited by Scimitar; 10-14-2012 at 06:13 PM.
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    Propaganda

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    Re: Propaganda

    We all find a lot of propaganda from internet - this is more than half full of it. We all may spread some kind of propaganda as knowing it or without knowing. People whose send it are professionals in some matter and level and they know how to put it to peoples´ mind.

    May Allah forgive us all, specially if we do it by mistake.

    Now calm down there; take hot cup of tea, maybe some chocolate and remember we all are just humans - not perfect all the time.

    (not sure if my humor is any less silly than Scimis´)
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    Propaganda

    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.



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    Re: Propaganda

    Maybe we should talk here also what is propaganda. By wikipedia (not best channel of my mind) tells is as

    "Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes."

    More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

    We all are its victims by some way and part of us spread it too.

    Non is innocent. In internet or outside.
    Propaganda

    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.



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  9. #7
    glo's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Propaganda

    format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb View Post
    "Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes."
    The question is, how do we shield ourselves from propaganda? And how do we recognise it in the first place?

    It is quite easy to observe other people jumping on the emotional propaganda bandwagon ... but much harder to recognise when you have fallen into the same trap!

    When it happened to me, somebody posted how uncharacteristic is was for me to express such a thought - and that caught my attention! I was doing/saying something, which people who know me saw as uncharacteristic. That was meaningful!


    Looking at your description propaganda is not necessarily harmful in itself.
    But it is manipulating - which means it tries to sway people's opinion and channel their feelings into particular actions.
    Perhaps if you use propaganda to encourage people to become active in their communities and do positive things, it can be justified.
    But when it is used to incite hatred and call people to kill and seek revenge, it can not ...
    Last edited by glo; 10-13-2012 at 07:08 AM.
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    Propaganda

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    glocandle ani 1 - Propaganda

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]

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  10. #8
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    Re: Propaganda

    Manipulating is used in everyday advertisement. Those adverstisements in TV or magazines are same. They try to get you to buy something as "you really need this and that". It is part of my education I did years ago. Manipulation of minds use similar ways. As affect public opinion. All media use it, also internet. I don´t say I am innocent at all. I too send information what is one-sided of those whose are at other side.

    Propaganda

    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.



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  11. #9
    glo's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Propaganda

    format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb View Post
    Manipulating is used in everyday advertisement. Those adverstisements in TV or magazines are same. They try to get you to buy something as "you really need this and that".
    You should see my husband when the adverts are on the TV. He gets so annoyed!
    But seriously, we are a pretty non-consumerist family ... but it can be hard to free yourself from those manipulations and suggestions!


    format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb View Post
    Manipulation of minds use similar ways. As affect public opinion. All media use it, also internet. I don´t say I am innocent at all. I too send information what is one-sided of those whose are at other side.
    I was thinking about the idea that propaganda is not necessarily negative.

    At the moment there is a programme on the TV about how farmers lived in Britain during the WWII years and how they were encouraged (or forced) by the government to increase their production. Growing enough food to feed the nation without having to rely on imported food was very important. Especially with Britain being an island nation.

    Propaganda played a huge role during WWII to keep people's morale and resolve up. I don't think many would argue that this propaganda was not for a good cause.

    But to keep people to stay focused and determined to do all they could to keep up the fight, it was important to maintain the image of Germany as the enemy.
    Of course Germany as nation was the enemy. But part of the propaganda was to make sure that people kept that image in their minds.

    If British people had started to think of Germans as ordinary people, who also tried to survive in wartime situations, who were also bombed and also suffered hunger, fear and loss - in other words, if they had allowed themselves to be compassionate ... I wonder of they could have kept the fight against Nazi Germany up in the same way?

    So what I am wondering is if we want to hold on to those enemy pictures in our minds in order to keep up the fight?
    And if, once we think of our enemy as another human being with the same feelings and desires as ourselves, we cannot fight him/her any longer?
    And if, if we all thought of each other as fellow human beings, we would have no desire to fight at all?


    I think it is important to not let yourself be swept away by emotions and to try and look for the facts in order to be able to make as informed and objective an opinion as possible.
    Propaganda

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    glocandle ani 1 - Propaganda

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]

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    Re: Propaganda

    Propaganda is a powerful tool, and whether it is good or bad all depends on the aim of the user. Anti-smoking ads, for example, are beneficial. Wartime Propoganda is another thing. If a nation is fighting to protect itself from an invader, I suppose it's important that the enemy be portrayed in a negative light. But what is it really about? It is the dehumanization of another people. But these people are mostly just like yourself. They are workers. They work on farms or in factories or in offices. They don't personally want to kill any of the workers in your country. After they are fed the same propaganda diet about what terrible people you are, they will now suport the leaders of their nation in feeling that you are a threat to their way of life.

    The reality of war is that it is no more than the arguments of the wealthy settled with the blood of the workers. War is almost never about freedom, t's about access to resources for the privleged.

    My rule of thumb, if propaganda promotes public health, I'm all for it. If propoganda promotes philanthropy, I'm all for it. When propoganda starts to tell me that some of my fellow human beings are murderers and baby killers because they live within the borders of another country, then I will treat it like a lie, because that's what it is.

    Remember that Art is a very powerful tool. Dictators and tyrants know this and we see that artists are considered dangerous and they do their best to control them. People do most of their thinking with their emotional brain. Good art speaks directly to the emotions. This is why propaganda often uses art to advance itself. Here in America, however, it seems that the news media is the biggest disseminator of propaganda. Americans fancy themselves "rational thinkers", so propaganda is dressed up as journalism. But it still contains an obviously emotionally laden narrative. It's still propaganda, though.
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    Re: Propaganda

    format_quote Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
    Wartime Propoganda is another thing. If a nation is fighting to protect itself from an invader, I suppose it's important that the enemy be portrayed in a negative light. But what is it really about? It is the dehumanization of another people. But these people are mostly just like yourself. They are workers. They work on farms or in factories or in offices. They don't personally want to kill any of the workers in your country. After they are fed the same propaganda diet about what terrible people you are, they will now suport the leaders of their nation in feeling that you are a threat to their way of life.
    Yes. Looking back at the propaganda used on both sides, it is very easy to see that.

    In fact, I think it took a while after the war for both sides to realise that the other side (Germans/Brits) were just the same and just as human.

    My question is, without having that 'enemy image' and stirring up hatred against that enemy, can one maintain the momentum of hating and fighting?
    Propaganda

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    glocandle ani 1 - Propaganda

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]

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    Re: Propaganda

    format_quote Originally Posted by glo View Post
    My question is, without having that 'enemy image' and stirring up hatred against that enemy, can one maintain the momentum of hating and fighting?[/SIZE][/COLOR]
    Actually no. Nations need to make public picture of enemy. As has mentioned WWII in my country enemy and those bad people were Russians, not nazi Germany (as my country co-operated with Germany).

    Now this propaganda is different, like those caricatures and films about prophet Muhammad. That is sort of propaganda too. Meaning is create some kind of opinion about islam.

    "We are blood-thirsty monsters whose invide peaceful west."
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    Propaganda

    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.



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    Re: Propaganda

    format_quote Originally Posted by glo View Post
    My question is, without having that 'enemy image' and stirring up hatred against that enemy, can one maintain the momentum of hating and fighting?
    Could you kill your neighbor? Of course not. How about a stranger? I sincerely doubt it, as well. It goes against everything we are taught, as well as every instinct we are born with.

    We must be told that the people we are to kill are a direct threat to our lives, or the lives of our children. The propagandists appeal to our highest ideals and our most tender emotions and use them against us. We see a child is threatened by a monster, our empathy is stirred, our sense of justice is outraged and it inspires in us the instinct to protect that child and stop the beast. The "other" is portrayed as anything but fully human. He is leering or scowling, his hands are dripping with the blood of innocents, he is imagined as the personification of all the differences between your culture and his. How could we be brought to murder otherwise?
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    Re: Propaganda

    format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb View Post
    Actually no. Nations need to make public picture of enemy.
    format_quote Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
    We must be told that the people we are to kill are a direct threat to our lives, or the lives of our children. The propagandists appeal to our highest ideals and our most tender emotions and use them against us.
    All the more reason for us to be extremely vigilant about what message we listen to and internalise ...
    And to ask ourselves "who really is my enemy here?"
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    Propaganda

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    glocandle ani 1 - Propaganda

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]

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    Re: Propaganda

    format_quote Originally Posted by glo View Post

    And to ask ourselves "who really is my enemy here?"
    To us most enemy is inside of us - we make image of enemy in our imagination (partly when listen propaganda and follow it).

    My worst enemy is me.
    Propaganda

    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.



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    Re: Propaganda

    format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb View Post
    To us most enemy is inside of us - we make image of enemy in our imagination (partly when listen propaganda and follow it).

    My worst enemy is me.
    Reminds me of this verse:

    For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.
    Propaganda

    Peace
    glocandle ani 1 - Propaganda

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]

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    Re: Propaganda

    Propaganda is effective because humanity needs monsters.

    We need something to rally against. In a violent crime, who gets the most passionate, energetic attention?

    Do you feel your blood pumping for the helpless, battered woman or child? You feel tears flowing, maybe.

    But the anger, the will to act, is often only roused by the wrongdoer. 'Get that animal, make him pay' and so on.

    And if you want to unite a people to your own ends, quickly, with no difficult questions asked, you don't give them both sides of a story and invite them to think for themselves and come to their own conclusion.

    You simply give them a monster.
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    glo's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Propaganda

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin View Post
    And if you want to unite a people to your own ends, quickly, with no difficult questions asked, you don't give them both sides of a story and invite them to think for themselves and come to their own conclusion.
    Very true. Muezzin.

    Is this ever a justifiable thing to do? If the desired outcome is beneficial? (Although it may be debatable if it is beneficial and for whom ...)
    Or is this approach (always) wrong? (Or does that depend on whether you have been stuck in the group of 'monsters' or not?)
    Propaganda

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    glocandle ani 1 - Propaganda

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]

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    Re: Propaganda

    format_quote Originally Posted by glo View Post

    Very true. Muezzin.

    Is this ever a justifiable thing to do? If the desired outcome is beneficial? (Although it may be debatable if it is beneficial and for whom ...)

    I don't really think it is ever justifiable, because it involves oversimplifying complex issues in order to manipulate people to one's own ends. You don't say 'what that criminal did was wrong and he should be punished, but what is even worse is the poor, desperate environment he grew up in that contributed to that behaviour, and the powerful people who allow new criminals to be created every day and fail to improve the situation must also be held to account' - you just say 'all criminals are evil, burn them'. Basically, it usually involves deflection of issues of even greater importance.

    Or is this approach (always) wrong? (Or does that depend on whether you have been stuck in the group of 'monsters' or not?)
    Well, I think it's best to err on the side of honesty. Leaders especially have a duty not to lie to or otherwise deceive their people.

    Of course, the election process is built on making false promises, so what do I know?
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    Re: Propaganda

    I like your thinking, Muezzin.

    Spinning this further ... if we had no 'monsters' and all looked for the shared humanity in our enemies instead, would this be the end of wars and conflict?? (Utopian, I know, but would this be the ultimate consequence?)
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    glocandle ani 1 - Propaganda

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]

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