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  1. #1
    Even's Avatar
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    Are most of us really just hypocrites?

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    I guess this thread mostly applies to westerners but probably applies to most countries.

    I was having a debate at university a few days ago with an atheist in our religious debate session, it has Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Atheists, all kinds of people with different beliefs. An atheist today asked us Muslims a question. He said why so many Muslims live in western countries if we don't like western policy or western law, I've heard this before many times but then we carried on with saying that we Muslims are paying tax which goes to funding wars which kill Muslims such as in Iraq and Afghanistan. The U.S Muslims pay tax, of which $3billion of it goes to Israel which they use to drop bombs and persecute Palestinians.

    He also said that we hate on kuffar and try to disassociate ourselves with them but whenever we need something from them, we go running. Like NHS healthcare or a surgeon who can perform an operation and send our children to kuffar schools. I just didn't have a single thing to say back with and I honestly just felt speechless... I couldn't think of anything to say.

    I tried to let it go but it's been eating away at me. Are we all just ultimately hypocrites when it comes to the west? I mean when we honestly just think about it... Do most of us hate it as much as we claim? Personally I very much enjoy it in my country (UK) but I know many people who think of kuffar as dogs with corrupt policies and society yet here they are... paying tax and using kuffar things like university to get a job or taking their child to kuffar hospital to be treated by kuffar dogs... I don't get it.

    Obviously we can't just get up and leave a country... or can we? Is it our duty to try our best to move out from the west back to the home of Islam? For example Hajj is only mandatory if we are physically and financially able to do it, does the same not apply for moving out from western countries?

    I honestly just don't know what to say in our next debate if he brings this issue up again.

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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    If we Muslims should move to the Islamic majority countries because we dislike the policy of the western countries, where we should move the next if we disagree the policy of those countries too? Many countries have problems with corruption or their governments support by way or other wars against other countries, oppress minorities or break human rights. Their rulers might not be very different than rulers in the west.

    If some Christian for example disagree the policy of his western country, should he move away too (and to where? To the Vatican maybe?)? Why just Muslims should move, specially if their have happened to be born in this western country? What if we stay and try to change the country we live already; by making dawah, changing other´s opinions about Islam and bring our own candidate to the policy (if you think its halal way to change some countries policy.

    Just few of my thoughts.
    | Likes MuslimInshallah liked this post
    Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.




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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    I get the argument, it's based..

    Let's just list countries that are socially acceptable for Muslims to move to..

    Pls nobody say, middle East or Pakistan :/


    Unfortunately, I have trouble with Muslims rather than non Muslims which is a real shame..

    Go figure... There's always one ain't there.

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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    If you were born in that country your home is that country so where can you go back home?

    But if you moved there just beccause of worldly purposes it changes...I think he might be right to call you a hypocrite then unless you dont give dawah. Only if you give dawah you might have an excuse.
    Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    “Either seem as you are or be as you seem” Rumi

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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Even View Post
    I guess this thread mostly applies to westerners but probably applies to most countries.

    I was having a debate at university a few days ago with an atheist in our religious debate session, it has Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Atheists, all kinds of people with different beliefs. An atheist today asked us Muslims a question. He said why so many Muslims live in western countries if we don't like western policy or western law, I've heard this before many times but then we carried on with saying that we Muslims are paying tax which goes to funding wars which kill Muslims such as in Iraq and Afghanistan. The U.S Muslims pay tax, of which $3billion of it goes to Israel which they use to drop bombs and persecute Palestinians.

    He also said that we hate on kuffar and try to disassociate ourselves with them but whenever we need something from them, we go running. Like NHS healthcare or a surgeon who can perform an operation and send our children to kuffar schools. I just didn't have a single thing to say back with and I honestly just felt speechless... I couldn't think of anything to say.

    I tried to let it go but it's been eating away at me. Are we all just ultimately hypocrites when it comes to the west? I mean when we honestly just think about it... Do most of us hate it as much as we claim? Personally I very much enjoy it in my country (UK) but I know many people who think of kuffar as dogs with corrupt policies and society yet here they are... paying tax and using kuffar things like university to get a job or taking their child to kuffar hospital to be treated by kuffar dogs... I don't get it.

    Obviously we can't just get up and leave a country... or can we? Is it our duty to try our best to move out from the west back to the home of Islam? For example Hajj is only mandatory if we are physically and financially able to do it, does the same not apply for moving out from western countries?

    I honestly just don't know what to say in our next debate if he brings this issue up again.
    I am a "western" christian - Born in catholic Ireland and currently living in Toronto. I suppose what I am hearing from you're atheist friend is some resentment for giving care to Muslims. Is he not being hypocritical by making the pretense that in order to receive care or funding from a Free country , that policy must be agreed to ? Is that not a bit contradictory coming from this Free state? In my understanding Muslims in fact adhere to the laws of the country regardless if they agree with them or not - this should not supecede Moral opionion or the Freedom of the pursuit of happiness/ Right to practice religion which this person agreed under their national laws.
    | Likes s.ali123 liked this post

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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Even View Post
    I guess this thread mostly applies to westerners but probably applies to most countries.

    I was having a debate at university a few days ago with an atheist in our religious debate session, it has Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Atheists, all kinds of people with different beliefs. An atheist today asked us Muslims a question. He said why so many Muslims live in western countries if we don't like western policy or western law, I've heard this before many times but then we carried on with saying that we Muslims are paying tax which goes to funding wars which kill Muslims such as in Iraq and Afghanistan. The U.S Muslims pay tax, of which $3billion of it goes to Israel which they use to drop bombs and persecute Palestinians.

    He also said that we hate on kuffar and try to disassociate ourselves with them but whenever we need something from them, we go running. Like NHS healthcare or a surgeon who can perform an operation and send our children to kuffar schools. I just didn't have a single thing to say back with and I honestly just felt speechless... I couldn't think of anything to say.

    I tried to let it go but it's been eating away at me. Are we all just ultimately hypocrites when it comes to the west? I mean when we honestly just think about it... Do most of us hate it as much as we claim? Personally I very much enjoy it in my country (UK) but I know many people who think of kuffar as dogs with corrupt policies and society yet here they are... paying tax and using kuffar things like university to get a job or taking their child to kuffar hospital to be treated by kuffar dogs... I don't get it.

    Obviously we can't just get up and leave a country... or can we? Is it our duty to try our best to move out from the west back to the home of Islam? For example Hajj is only mandatory if we are physically and financially able to do it, does the same not apply for moving out from western countries?

    I honestly just don't know what to say in our next debate if he brings this issue up again.
    Salaam bro

    I know I am, and I hope in ALLAH mercy that one day I will be a true believer ( mu'min )

    oh ALLAH, please give us all the tawfiq to be true believers without any difficulty, ameen ameen ameen

  9. #7
    s.ali123's Avatar
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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Even View Post
    I guess this thread mostly applies to westerners but probably applies to most countries.

    I was having a debate at university a few days ago with an atheist in our religious debate session, it has Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Atheists, all kinds of people with different beliefs. An atheist today asked us Muslims a question. He said why so many Muslims live in western countries if we don't like western policy or western law, I've heard this before many times but then we carried on with saying that we Muslims are paying tax which goes to funding wars which kill Muslims such as in Iraq and Afghanistan. The U.S Muslims pay tax, of which $3billion of it goes to Israel which they use to drop bombs and persecute Palestinians.

    He also said that we hate on kuffar and try to disassociate ourselves with them but whenever we need something from them, we go running. Like NHS healthcare or a surgeon who can perform an operation and send our children to kuffar schools. I just didn't have a single thing to say back with and I honestly just felt speechless... I couldn't think of anything to say.

    I tried to let it go but it's been eating away at me. Are we all just ultimately hypocrites when it comes to the west? I mean when we honestly just think about it... Do most of us hate it as much as we claim? Personally I very much enjoy it in my country (UK) but I know many people who think of kuffar as dogs with corrupt policies and society yet here they are... paying tax and using kuffar things like university to get a job or taking their child to kuffar hospital to be treated by kuffar dogs... I don't get it.

    Obviously we can't just get up and leave a country... or can we? Is it our duty to try our best to move out from the west back to the home of Islam? For example Hajj is only mandatory if we are physically and financially able to do it, does the same not apply for moving out from western countries?

    I honestly just don't know what to say in our next debate if he brings this issue up again.
    I think you will find pretty good arguments on this from Dr. Tariq Ramadan. There is a reason why he get's ban from countries so many times :P
    In short, no you are not being hypocrite at all. First of all the you should question their line of thought. Your athiest friend should ask himself first why does he see you as "different" from himself. You are born in the same country and ultimately all are humans, and even from scientific point of view, which your athiest agree to, we all came from same specie or group of human beings. What is this attitude of "us" and "you". You are born in this country and you are part of this country, you are home and you don't have to move anywhere. There are so many things that a person does not agree with. For example, up untill only recently there was no law or gay marriage approved in USA. So did he ask the same from the people who were condemning the policy of having gay marriage to move to some lalaland or whatever where they could practice it! No. Living in some part of the world does not mean you should agree with everything they say. And secondly you are not responsible for anyone else's reaction. The very fact that there are so many muslims in west and there is not "real" war waged by muslims there, means that they respect the law. May be there are some people who hate kuffar, but you are not responsible for there actions. There are still so many non-muslims who don't like homosexuals, so does that make them less patriot! No. So why only this question is asked from Muslims!

    And you can clearly criticize the foreign policy as well. If they are not ready to accept criticism against their policies, then directly it goes against the same values they claim to uphold.
    Last edited by s.ali123; 05-05-2016 at 07:22 PM.
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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    Quote Originally Posted by oggy29 View Post
    I am a "western" christian - Born in catholic Ireland and currently living in Toronto. I suppose what I am hearing from you're atheist friend is some resentment for giving care to Muslims. Is he not being hypocritical by making the pretense that in order to receive care or funding from a Free country , that policy must be agreed to ? Is that not a bit contradictory coming from this Free state? In my understanding Muslims in fact adhere to the laws of the country regardless if they agree with them or not - this should not supecede Moral opionion or the Freedom of the pursuit of happiness/ Right to practice religion which this person agreed under their national laws.
    I really liked you comment

  11. #9
    Even's Avatar
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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    Yeah exactly, you make some good points. We're born here so we're allowed to not like something and we should not have to move if we simply don't like it.

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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Even View Post
    Yeah exactly, you make some good points. We're born here so we're allowed to not like something and we should not have to move if we simply don't like it.
    There is whole series of Dr. Tariq Ramadan, on similar topics. They are amazing you. I would recommend you to watch few of them

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCHY...qt3ZG&index=28

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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    Quote Originally Posted by sister herb View Post
    If we Muslims should move to the Islamic majority countries because we dislike the policy of the western countries, where we should move the next if we disagree the policy of those countries too? Many countries have problems with corruption or their governments support by way or other wars against other countries, oppress minorities or break human rights. Their rulers might not be very different than rulers in the west.

    If some Christian for example disagree the policy of his western country, should he move away too (and to where? To the Vatican maybe?)? Why just Muslims should move, specially if their have happened to be born in this western country? What if we stay and try to change the country we live already; by making dawah, changing other´s opinions about Islam and bring our own candidate to the policy (if you think its halal way to change some countries policy.

    Just few of my thoughts.
    A perfect post depicting the desperation some Muslims have for the kuffar.

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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    ...... May Allah throw the munafiqs in the deepest of jahanam.

    Ameen.
    Last edited by Muslim Woman; 05-06-2016 at 07:22 AM.

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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Umar Ibn Farooq View Post
    ..... May Allah throw the munafiqs in the deepest of jahanam.

    Ameen.

    Calm down ... I was simply asking a question.
    Last edited by Muslim Woman; 05-06-2016 at 07:24 AM.
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    M.I.A.'s Avatar
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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    >:[

    Strange days, would you only trade with Muslims?
    ....

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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Even View Post
    Yeah exactly, you make some good points. We're born here so we're allowed to not like something and we should not have to move if we simply don't like it.
    Feel free to use them in you're next debate - Although as you know , its about generating Light - not heat. I find that meeting a person with empathy and understanding is the best way to get a sense of what is really going on. Does he feel threatened for his culture? Does he feel that - you are going to marry all his women and get rid of burgers and beer? Hahaha No - by you as a muslim engaging with a culture that is not entirely permissible to your way of life , sense of morality - you are in fact testing and strengthening your own faith - its your "jihad" so to speak. So you should thank his country for strengthening your faith
    and embrace the good in a western culture as a way of healthy integration

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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    Quote Originally Posted by s.ali123 View Post
    I really liked you comment
    thanks buddy - I like engaging with the Truth. Religions don't have problems with people - people have problems with religions - but it important to meet them where they're at right ? This guy has every right to represent how he feels - after all , he was given free will
    | Likes s.ali123 liked this post

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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    Quote Originally Posted by sister herb View Post
    What if we stay and try to change the country we live already
    It's better if you tell it to Muslims in some Muslim countries, who prefer to move to the West than try to build their own homeland.
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    Umar Ibn Farooq's Avatar
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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Even View Post
    Calm down ...I was simply asking a question.
    May Allah guide you and forgive you for what you said.
    Last edited by Muslim Woman; 05-06-2016 at 07:24 AM.

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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    Assalaamu alaikum,


    I agree with @s.ali123 . Dr Ramadan has some very interesting and thoughtful insights in his books. (smile) Though the "they" in "their" policies that Ali mentioned are the ones in power, not the people of a country.

    (smile) And if Muslims are citizens of countries with foreign affairs policies they find problematic... we can certainly make our voices heard. And in European and North American countries, this may be easier to do than in others. But for this, we need to become politically engaged.

    I also second the posters who have pointed out the discrimination behind such remarks that were pointed at you, @Even . (smile) And perhaps you can point out this discrimination the next time you have a discussion at university. Any person has the right to be in disagreement with government policy, even if they are cantankerous, even if they are on social assistance, even if... And there are plenty of non-Muslims who pay taxes, disagree with government policies and/or receive social benefits of one form or another. As our Prime Minister put it succinctly and catchily in the last election: a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian.

    We don't kick out even the worst of criminals. They are a problem, but they are our problem. Just as our government is ours. And our society is ours. Warts and all. Please don't let narrow-minded people exclude you from your own place. (twinkle) And even if a person is racist, we need to try our best to help him or her to integrate into our society...


    May Allah, the Light, Help us to see clearly.
    Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    Our finitude is our distance from Him. His infinitude is His closeness to us. Abdal-Hakim Murad @Contentions



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    Re: Are most of us really just hypocrites?

    Quote Originally Posted by ardianto View Post
    It's better if you tell it to Muslims in some Muslim countries, who prefer to move to the West than try to build their own homeland.
    Yes. It should be the case. I used to think same. But on practical grounds the reality is different. I am not supporting those who totally forsake everything and live in their own shell in west. But I now don't support this idea that if you want to help your country, you have to live there as well. It is esier than done. Usually Muslim societies are very complex. From outside you may feel that all the people living outside there countries are not or cannot do anything to improve it, but on practical ground it is not like that. In terms of west it is directly clear to see that what you are doing it is helping your country, because it gets returned to people. But in many muslim countries like mine, Pakistan, first I dont get a job, secondly even if I get a job I get so much less with my technical degree that I can hardly even own a house for my family and have to live hand to mouth and thirdly even doing job there does not improve much for the country because in the end it goes into swiss accounts. And mostly importantly the work environment and the way people deal with you make it too much difficult to focus on anything, many times even practicing Islam. People in so many situation, especially government employes are led to such situation where he has to lie and take bribe, otherwise the suoerior will not let him survive in system, and in many cases he even starts to get death threats for himself and his family. And even among the religious communities, even some good scholars, the understanding of religion is such that you cannot even speak your opinion. Search for the case of recent even Mumtaz Qadri, on google.
    As for me I see all muslims as one. We don't have to look at the boarders drawn by the collonizers. Many muslims have forgotten the fact that many of todays maps were drawn on table by their collonizers. At current time we need to unite the broken ummah, not just our own country, through proper Islamic education. And at least and most important our own families. Even if people realise how important legacy their children is and how much important their proper islamic upbringing is, it will solve many problems in the long run. It does not matter much where you live, what matters in the end is what you do and how you live. Either it is according to sunnah and are you supporting the weak or not.
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