As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but

Rumi is not the same as Abu Nawas. He was a religious poet.

However Abu Nawas, Ibnu Zaydun, Al Mutanabbi, Al Hallaj... they didn't used allegory and metaphors and they were poets who loved Wine and they were drinking it all of their lives as did many Caliphs..
I do accept them as they are, i love them and i really enter in a state of joy when i read about them..

I invite you to read also the poetry of Arabs before Islam, you will also find other poets who were praising wine such as Omar Ibnu Kalthum, Azzir Salem, Imriou Al Kais... and the list goes on and on...

And yes, these poets get censored before and after Islam.

"we've known you've all been secretly drinking for 'ages' " This is correct! You just need to read the biographies of poets and of some Caliphs. The Muslims are not angels, they committed crimes and they drank alcohol for ages.

And i don't care what the west can say, they need to take a look at their bloody history before they look at ours.

I made an edit to my last post - re read, Ahmed.

format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama

I invite you to read also the poetry of Arabs before Islam, you will also find other poets who were praising wine such as Omar Ibnu Kalthum, Azzir Salem, Imriou Al Kais... and the list goes on and on...

And yes, these poets get censored before and after Islam.

"we've known you've all been secretly drinking for 'ages' " This is correct! You just need to read the biographies of poets and of some Caliphs. The Muslims are not angels, they committed crimes and they drank alcohol for ages.

First of all, using pre-Islamic poetry to help you make a point about how alcohol was consumed by Arabs of that period doesn't really help you to actually "make a point". Alcohol from fermented dates in Arabia is a well known historical fact. No poetry required to prove it.

Point of this thread though bro Ahmed, is to clarify the position of "khamr" in Islam. Not at any point before Islam.

format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama

And i don't care what the west can say, they need to take a look at their bloody history before they look at ours.

Too right

Scimi

I still don't agree with you...

Did you read the poetry of Abu Nawas before ?
No!
So why are you speaking ?

You can ask any Arab about Abu Nawas and he will tell you that he was a big lover of wine and i add more, he was even gay... We know this because we read Arabic poetry since we are in School.

I invite you to read his poetry and his biography (he has been censored, he was a big drinker and he was put in prison because of that)
Al Mutanabbi pretended to be a prophet
There is another poet who said he is Allah, i think it's Hallaj
And the list goes on and on lol

To be honest, I actually hate poetry, so I don't like to read it. Either way bro, I don't think poetry which speaks of alcohol written by drunken Muslims can help you to prove that Khaliphs of Islam drank alcohol - that's my point

Sorry bro, but you fell into that one lol (logic trap)

Scimi

Caliphes drinking alcohol do not prove anything. A Caliph doesnt mean an impeccable man. They commited sins. And if you ask me I think Caliphate ended with Hadhrat Ali. The rest were kings, some good examples like Harun Ar-Rashid, and some bad examples like Yazid?

By the way I couldnt catch how you came to Hallaj but I am a big fan of him

Did you even read my second post ?

format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian

Caliphes drinking alcohol do not prove anything. A Caliph doesnt mean an impeccable man. They commited sins. And if you ask me I think Caliphate ended with Hadhrat Ali. The rest were kings, some good examples like Harun Ar-Rashid, and some bad examples like Yazid?

By the way I couldnt catch how you came to Hallaj but I am a big fan of him

Yes i agree 100% with you

But i'm a big fan of Mutanabbi He is the greatest poet with a heart of iron lol

Yes Ahmed, I did. But you fail to see what the brother above you just shared.

And if you ask me I think Caliphate ended with Hadhrat Ali.

Many share that opinion...

...and also, we're only supposedly ruled by people who are reflective of our own collective states.

So if you are gonna blame khaliphs, blame Muslims in general too. And know that whether Allah forgave them their transgressions through mercy or not, is something you do not know - yet you will continue to slander the dead who died as Muslims.

Scimi

EDIT: Ahmed, I'd have no problem with you attempting to prove Khaliph Baghdadi is a notorious drunk though go for it hehe

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar

To be honest, I actually hate poetry, so I don't like to read it. Either way bro, I don't think poetry which speaks of alcohol written by drunken Muslims can help you to prove that Khaliphs of Islam drank alcohol - that's my point

Sorry bro, but you fell into that one lol (logic trap)

Scimi

I think you falled in the trap when you said that you are not interested in reading poetry.

You are right, if you don't read poetry you can't know that many Caliphs were poets and that they glorified wine

I can read up on the peopel I like in history such as Rumi and who he references in his works, such as Hallaj.

You don't have to be interested in poetry to learn about the people of influence.

You forget, I study comparatively, something I've yet to see you take a leap forward in, Ahmed.

Let's not make this about you or me though, I'd rather see you try to bring this thread back on track by doing one of two things:

1) explain the position and reasoning behind khamr being haraam in Islam
2) attempt to prove baghdadi is a notorious drunk

One will be educational, the other - just entertainment

Scimi

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar

So if you are gonna blame khaliphs, blame Muslims in general too. And know that whether Allah forgave them their transgressions through mercy or not, is something you do not know - yet you will continue to slander the dead who died as Muslims.

Scimi

EDIT: Ahmed, I'd have no problem with you attempting to prove Khaliph Baghdadi is a notorious drunk though go for it hehe

No, i'm not blaming the Caliphs, i'm glorifying them because they were the defenders of the Ummah and you failed to see this!

And i already proved this by the translation that i do in order for me to show the world how great those people were, take a look
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...18KL5wUNlVTTUq

And i hope from my heart to meet them in Heaven one day because they are really my heroes and my leaders and they influenced my life so much..

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar

I can read up on the peopel I like in history such as Rumi and who he references in his works, such as Hallaj.

You don't have to be interested in poetry to learn about the people of influence.

I agree, but poetry will help you a lot to learn more about history.
And it helped me a lot to learn more about the attitude of the Caliphs, somthing that you didn't even know

It's really bad to give importance to historians and to neglet poets.
We need to give importance to both so we can see the biggest picture!

I give you an example : The Kings can get glorified by historians but slandered by the poets
This will help us to see the négatives and the positives.

---> EDIT : Poetry will help you to compare, you just said it by yourself "I study comparatively"
This is a big lesson from me to you, to learn new Tools of comparison lol

format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama

No, i'm not blaming the Caliphs, i'm glorifying them because they were the defenders of the Ummah and you failed to see this!

Clearly...

format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama

I read in Ibn Hazm that there is many Caliphs during the Abbasides, Andalucia... were drinking wine among them i can mention...[/snip]

format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama

And i already proved this by the translation that i do in order for me to show the world how great those people were, take a look
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...18KL5wUNlVTTUq

And i hope from my heart to meet them in Heaven one day because they are really my heroes and my leaders and they influenced my life so much..

Well done, you!!!

format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama

I don't stop here, Because Even Harun Arrashid was accused of drinking alcohol but no one knows if it's true or not. This accusation was made against him because he were always accompanied by Abu Nawas (The poet of wine). The latter was well financed by Harun Arrashid. And Allahu Aalam.

format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam

Let’s remember the following statement of the Prophet:

Abu Huraira narrated the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “It is enough to call a person a liar that he narrates everything he hears”[Sahih Muslim]

The explanation of the hadith is that a person will hear a mixture of truth and falsehood and if they simply narrate everything without checking what is true and what is false, they will inevitably narrate the lies too.

format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama

I agree, but poetry will help you a lot to learn more about history.
And it helped me a lot to learn more about the attitude of the Caliphs, somthing that you didn't even know

It's really bad to give importance to historians and to neglet poets.
We need to give importance to both so we can see the biggest picture!

I give you an example : The Kings can get glorified by historians but slandered by the poets
This will help us to see the négatives and the positives.

Poetry is a form of expression which is often invaluable in the preservation of, and anthropological understanding of human development - not history.

History relies on many other ologies, poetry not being one - but only used in fleeting reference to a time period. It's hardly worth the parchment in my honest opinion. Like I said, I'm not a fan of it - but I love history, and study it comparatively with investigative methodologies - the very same I'm asking you to develop, the very same i've yet to see fruit within you.

Meanwhile you are asking me to take the statements of drunken poets as proof against Kings? logic trap back again bro

Scimi

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar

Poetry is a form of expression which is often invaluable in the preservation of, and anthropological understanding of human development - not history.

History relies on many other ologies, poetry not being one - but only used in fleeting reference to a time period. It's hardly worth the parchment in my honest opinion. Like I said, I'm not a fan of it - but I love history, and study it comparatively with investigative methodologies - the very same I'm asking you to develop, the very same i've yet to see fruit within you.

Scimi

And yes history can be studied through Poetry and many historians are doing it.
Because poetry helped to describe for example wars and Kings..
So why should we neglect it ? In knowledge Nothing should be neglected! Even a small detail!

As for Harun Arrashid, i never said that he was drunk man, i just said what he was accused of, and this is true! And i didn't take from anyone, i just took it from respected scholars.

If you say that Prophet Sulayman was accused to worship the devils, does that mean you are liar ? No!
You need to understand that Hadith more...

format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama

And yes history can be studied through Poetry and many historians are doing it.
Because poetry helped to describe for example wars and Kings..
So why should we neglect it ? In knowledge Nothing should be neglected! Even a small detail!

As for Harun Arrashid, i never said that he was drunk man, i just said what he was accused of, and this is true! And i didn't take from anyone, i just took it from respected scholars.

If you say that Prophet Sulayman was accused to worship the devils, does that mean you are liar ? No!
You need to understand that Hadith more...

Ahmed, you made statements which you did not back up and left open to enquiry. Here is your first post in this thread:

format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama

The majority of Muslim Caliphs were drinking alcohol at that time lol

You're making HUGE mistakes in your opening post and others here in this thread. You've left red herring arguments which leave more questions than they answer, and to make things worse, you claim the "understand hadeeth properly" argument out of sheer ignorance.

Come on young man, pull your socks up.

I still don't understand how you expect me to take the statements of drunken poets as proof against Kings?



Scimi

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar

Ahmed, you made statements which you did not back up and left open to enquiry. Here is your first post in this thread:



You're making HUGE mistakes in your opening post and others here in this thread. You've left red herring arguments which leave more questions than they answer, and to make things worse, you claim the "understand hadeeth properly" argument out of sheer ignorance.

Come on young man, pull your socks up.

I still don't understand how you expect me to take the statements of drunken poets as proof against Kings?



Scimi

I already explained myself well in my second post!

And yes you used the Hadith to prove that i'm a liar but i'm not, real liars are those who say i'm gonna do Something then they don't!

And why are you thinking that all poets are drunken poets ? Why putting all poets in the same bag ? And why you think that people who drink alcohol are all liars ?

format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama

I already explained myself well in my second post!

And yes you used the Hadith to prove that i'm a liar but i'm not, real liars are those who say i'm gonna do Something then they don't!

And why are you thinking that all poets are drunken poets ? Why putting all poets in the same bag ? And why you think that people who drink alcohol are all liars ?

Bro let me put it to you like this.

In Islam, we have something called hadeeth sciences.

Within these hadeeth sciences, is a thing called "reliability of narrators"

If a narrator had faults such as being known to be a liar, have a bad memory, having addiction to wine etc - they became "unreliable".

I hold fast to the yard stick by which Islamic scholarship has measured the accuracy of a mans word. You, apparently do not. You wrote this:

And why you think that people who drink alcohol are all liars ?

And that my bro, is where you go wrong.

Scimi

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar

Bro let me put it to you like this.

In Islam, we have something called hadeeth sciences.

Within these hadeeth sciences, is a thing called "reliability of narrators"

If a narrator had faults such as being known to be a liar, have a bad memory, having addiction to wine etc - they became "unreliable".

I hold fast to the yard stick by which Islamic scholarship has measured the accuracy of a mans word. You, apparently do not. You wrote this:

And why you think that people who drink alcohol are all liars ?

And that my bro, is where you go wrong.

Scimi

Yes maybe that's where i go wrong!

But what about my other arguments ?

Null and void,

You're speaking from an emotional position in the post before your last. I don't entertain emotion when it comes to things like this bro.

Scimi