Muslims rejecting Hadith

format_quote Originally Posted by Regrets1

She just like any other Sunni Muslim believes in the prophet pbuh, prayes like we all do, she followed the Hadith But has completely changed now. She doesn't follow no Hadith now, she thinks following Hadith means saying Quran is incomplete. May Allah swt guide her. Ameen.

Did u ever asked why u pray like this even in quran there is no description about performing it like we do

format_quote Originally Posted by فصيح الياسين

Did u ever asked why u pray like this even in quran there is no description about performing it like we do

I asked her and her answer shocked me. She's not that person anymore il post what she said below its abit long but reading little bit of it will tell you how she is now.

"-5-

Three Salat (Prayers) Authorised in the Quran

The prayers mentioned by name in the Quran are:

1- Salat Al-Fajr (Dawn Prayer)24:58

2- Salat Al-Isha (Night Prayer)24:58

3- Al-Salat Al-Wusta (The Middle Prayer) 2:238.

However, 99% of all Muslims in the world claim that God decreed 5 daily prayers.
Their 5 salat are: Fajr - Zhohr - Asr - Maghrib - Isha.
They changed the name of the Salat Al-Wusta (The Middle Prayer) to Salat Al-Zhohr, and they added 2 salat which are the Asr and Maghrib.

The question is: If the prescribed prayers are indeed five per day, why does the Quran have only three named salat? To research this issue we present the following points:

First: Why are there only three named salat in the Quran?

If it is true that God authorised 5 obligatory salat per day, then we must inquire as to why there are only 3 names of salat given in the Quran?

The following explanations and their merits are put forward:

1- The names of the other salat are not in the Quran because the Quran does not contain all the details. This is a false claim because God tells us in 6:114 that the book is fully detailed and in 6:38 that nothing has been left out of the book:

“Shall I seek other than God as a source of law when He has brought down to you this book fully detailed?” 6:114

“We did not leave anything out of the book” 6:38

2- God forgot to mention the other two names of salat! This option is also false, God does not forget:

“He said, "The knowledge thereof is with my Lord in a record. My Lord never errs, nor does He forget." 20:52

3- God did not mention the names of the other 2 salat because they are not important. If the salat were not important they would not be compulsory, and as a result, to claim that there are five compulsory prayers becomes a false claim.

4- God did not mention the names of the other 2 prayers because God wants us to guess them! Once again this is false, the Quran is unambiguous and is not a book of puzzles:

"A.L.R. These are the signs of the clear book" 12:1

"We have made it (the Quran) easy to understand and in your own tongue (language) may you take heed." 44:58

5- God does not mention the names of the other 2 salat because they can be found in the hadith. This is a false claim since we are commanded not to uphold any source of law other than the Quran (6:114, 7:3 and 5:48). We are also commanded specifically not to believe any hadith other than the Quran:

“These are God's revelations which we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?” 45:6

The fact that God deliberately used the words “in which hadith” are very significant.

6- God does not mention the names of all the salat since they came to us through inherited rituals, and because God wants us to follow what we inherited from our parents even if it is not found in the Quran! Once again a claim that violates the Quran. In the Quran we are commanded not to follow what we inherited from our parents if it is not clearly found in the Quran:

“And when they are told, "Follow what God has revealed (Quran)," they say, "We follow only what we found our parents doing." What if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?” 2:170

7- God does not mention the names of the other 2 prayers, because there are no other 2 prayers according to the law of the Quran.

The genuine believers who believe that the Quran contains all the details, with no ifs or buts, will not accept any option other than option 7.
Second: Does the Quran give the exact times for each salat?

God tells us that the time of each prayer is precisely given in the Quran "kitaban mawqootan" 4:103. The word "kitaban" which means 'book' refers to the Quran, or to 'that which is written', and the word "mawqootan" means specifically timed. The deliberate use of these two words by God confirms that the precise appointed time for each of the prayers is given in the Quran. Once again this conforms to the fact that the Quran contains all the details.

The exact times of the three salat are given in the Quran and they are as follows:

The Fajr (Dawn) Prayer (mentioned by name in 24:58)

This prayer starts when fajr (dawn) starts. The start of fajr is given in 2:187. It starts when the first thin ray of light is observed in the sky. The words in 2:187 are: "until the white thread becomes distinguishable to you from the dark thread at dawn." The prayer ends at sunrise as will be explained in more details below.

The Isha (Night) Prayer (mentioned by name in 24:58)

The night prayer corresponds to the other end of the day. It is the mirror image of the fajr salat. This prayer starts at sunset and ends when all light has disappeared from the night sky.

The Wusta (Middle) Prayer (mentioned by name in 2:238)

The middle or 'Wusta' prayer starts when the sun starts to decline from its highest point in the sky (dulook al-shams), which is at noon, and ends at sunset as detailed below.

Third: The detailed times for each salat

The exact times of the Dawn (fajr) prayer and Evening (Isha) prayers are given in the following verse:

"You shall observe the Salat at the two ends of the day; and during the near parts of the night." 11:114

Traditionally, this verse has been interpreted to be speaking of three prayers: two Salat at the ends of the day plus an additional salat during the night, a total of 3 salat.

However, this is a clear mis-understanding. This verse in fact speaks of only two prayers. This will be apparent once we establish the true meaning of key words in 11:114.

1- The "ends of the day" are sunrise and sunset. A command to observe the salat at the two ends of the day is insufficient in giving us the time range for the salat in question. This is because sunrise and sunset (the two ends of the day) are events that take less than 2 minutes to be completed. Surely God does not expect all believers to observe the salat during this very brief time! It is only with the addition of the words "wa zulufan min al-layl" in the same verse that we are given a time range as to when these two salat are to be observed.

2- Some interpreters, have claimed that we can observe the Salat around the two points and not only during the actual sunrise/sunset, but this is equally unacceptable. This interpretation gives rise to a new valid question: When exactly would the 'around the two points' be? Would it be before sunrise (and sunset) or after sunrise (sunset)? It is obvious that we would be left without any clues as to when exactly to observe these two Salat. However, the phrase 'zulufann min al-layl' gives us the exact timing of these two salat.

3- There has been a number of interpretations for the words 'zulufann min al-layl'. The most commonly used are:
- (parts of the night) or (during the night) or (approaches of the night).

However, none of these interpretations are accurate, nor in line with the Quranic use of the word 'zulufan' as will be shown.
The phrases (parts of the night) and (during the night) is actually meaningless since any part of the night (beginning, middle or end) is a part of the night or during the night! God would not instruct us to observe the Salat with such a vague description.

Equally, the phrase (approaches of the night) is basically irrational. The approach means the route leading to something. Any linear quantity such as the night, in terms of being a sequence of hours, can have only one approach period. That would be the time leading to the night, or just before the night fall. A time in the middle of the night, or a part at the end of the night cannot be an approach to the night.

Similarly, the approach to the day (nahar) can only be the period of time just before the day.

But in 11:114 the words zulufan is plural, which immediately discards the meaning of 'approaches' since there can never be a plural number of approaches to the night.

To derive the correct meaning of the word zulufan, what is a better source to use than the Quran itself?

The root of the word "zulufann" is "Zulfa". The word "Zulfa" is used in the Quran to mean near or close as in:

"….. those who set up allies beside him, "We only idolize them so that they may bring us ‘zulfa’ (close) to God!" 39:3

The definition of the Quranic word 'zulfa' is also confirmed in the following verses:

[34:37] It is not your money or your children that will bring you 'zulfa' (closer) to Us, but only those who believe and do good deeds, they will receive double the reward for their works. They will reside peacefully in mansions.

[38:25] So We forgave him for that. We granted him 'zulfa' (nearness) to Us and a fine abode.

[38:40] He is granted 'zulfa' (nearness) to Us and a wonderful abode.

As a result, the phrase "zulufann min al-layl" means the near parts of the night. The obvious question is: near to what? Nothing can be described as 'near' in absolute terms. The word 'near' can only have a meaning when we have a reference point to which this thing is near to. For example, we cannot say "my house is near" nor "the chair is near"! These phrase on their own do not have any meaning, but we can say "my house is near the school" and "the chair is near the table". So now we have to read 11:114 again and see what does God mean by 'near parts of the night', or in other words, near to what? The only other reference points given in 11:114 are the "ends of the day", which are sunrise and sunset. As a result, the words "zulufann min al-layl" can only mean the parts of the night which are near to sunrise and sunset.
With the knowledge that anytime between sunset and sunrise is defined as night in the Quran (details at: Definition of Night in the Quran) it becomes clear that the part of the night which is near sunrise is the time of Fajr (dawn), this is the hour or so before sunrise when there is some light in the sky. Similarly the part of the night which is near to sunset is Isha (night), this is the hour or so after sunset when there is light in the sky.

As a result, 11:114 speaks of two salat only, and God is giving us in 11:114 the range of two salat. The range for the two salat are the parts of the night which are just before sunrise and immediately after sunset.

Perhaps the word "wa", which means 'and', which is placed before the phrase 'zulufann min al-layl' is the word that was the main subject of misinterpretation. Many have understood the word 'wa' to mean (and an additional Salat), however, the word 'wa' simply links the two ends of the day, with the adjacent parts of the night, to give the time range of the two salat.

The two Salat at the ends of the day that are spoken of in 11:114 are given specific names in the Quran. They are Salat Al-Fajr (Dawn Prayer) and Salat Al-Isha (Night Prayer).

Not surprisingly, the times of "fajr" and "esha" are defined in Arabic dictionaries as the times before sunrise and after sunset respectively.

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Now we come to the third Salat mentioned in the Quran, which is Al-Salat Al-Wusta (2:238). The timing of this salat is given in the following verse:

"You shall observe the Salat from the 'duluk' of the sun (when the sun declines from its highest point) up until the 'ghasaq al-layl' (the darkness of the night)" 17:78

The word "Wusta" (2:238) is a derivative of the word 'Wasat' which means middle. Therefore the words "Al-Salat Al-Wusta" mean 'The Middle Prayer'. The word middle (wusta) in 2:238 cannot have a meaning in an absolute sense. To be described as 'middle' must be in reference to two other points. The only other reference points given in the Quran in connection to salat are sunrise and sunset (the ends of the day in 11:114). Thus the middle salat starts when the sun has travelled exactly half way between sunrise and sunset. This is at midday.

The exact time for the Middle prayer (Salat Al-Wusta), which is given in 17:78, is from the moment the sun begins its descent from its highest point at midday (duluk al shams) until the darkness of the night starts (ghasaq al-layl).

The darkness itself starts about an hour or so before sunset, but the time before sunset is still part of the day, but since God said: "the darkness of the night" it must be the beginning of the darkness but also part of the night. This would be as soon as the sun sets, for then the darkness is setting in and it is also part of the night. Had God only said "until the darkness" this would have meant a time before sunset when the sun is still up but darkness is starting to creep in.

It must also be mentioned that some scholars have interpreted the words "until the darkness of the night" to mean when it is totally dark! But this is not correct, to demonstrate the correct meaning, consider the following example which outlines some basic logic:

If a man is told: Walk till you get to the sea then start swimming.

Does this mean that the man should swim when he gets to the beginning of the sea, when he gets to the middle of the sea or when he gets to the end of the sea? Naturally it means when he gets to the very beginning of the sea.

In the same way, if God says: "until the darkness of the night" it means until the very beginning of the darkness and as mentioned, when it is also night time.

So to sum up, the time to observe the Wusta Salat is any time between noon and sunset.
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As we have seen, not only do we only have three names of prayers in the Quran, we also have three defined times for prayer in the Quran. Those who follow five prayers a day cannot find names of more than three salat in the book, nor can they find defined times for their five prayers in the Quran. All their information comes from sources outside the Quran. They do that because they claim that the Quran does not have all the details. And by doing so, they demonstrate their disbelief in God's assurances that the Quran is fully detailed (6:114) and that nothing has been left out of the book (6:38)!

The diagram below, constructed by brother Paul hemmut, shows the exact times for the 3 Quranic Salat:

Fourth: The usual manipulations

Since there are only three named salat in the Quran, the advocates of the five salat have tried to manipulate a number of Quranic words to enforce their non Quranic five salat tradition. The following are some of their manipulations:

- Some have claimed that the word 'zahira' in 24:58 refers to the salat which they call by the same name. The advocates of the 5 prayers have tried to manipulate this word in 24:58 so as to authorise a salat called 'zohr'. But If we look at verse 24:58, we note that the word 'salat' is related only to 2 Salats (Fajr and Esha), and we also note that God only speaks of the 'time of day' (not salat name) which God calls Zahira (zohr). If there is a Salat called Salat Al-Zohr, wouldn't we expect to see the words 'salat Al-Zahira/Zohr' in 24:58, just like God mentions Salat Al-Fajr and Salat Al-Esha in the same verse by their name? The time of 'zahira' spoken of in 24:58 is a time which God reserves for privacy as the words in 24:58 explain, and is not a name for a salat.

- Some have also tried to manipulate various Quranic verses which speak of the time of 'Asr' (afternoon) such as 103:1, but once again when we read 103:1 we do not see any mention of the word salat. Asr is merely a time of the day which God refers to. The Quran also speaks of other times of the day such as 'duha' (morning) in 93:1, but once again this is not a reference to a salat by that name. The concept of salat is not mentioned directly or indirectly in any of these verses.

- Yet another case of manipulation is by those who have tried to change the meaning of the Quranic word 'tasbeeh' (glorification) to indicate salat. The Quran invites us to glorify God at various times of the day (3:41, 20:130, 50:39). The act of 'tasbeeh' is different from the act of salat. Tasbeeh (glorifying God) can be done at any time and has no pre-requisites, but salat has specific times of the day and can only be done according to specific rules such as ablution, facing qibla .. etc.

Fifth: The sun given as the timer

Many centuries ago in the old days, people did not have printed lists of times of prayers and astronomical charts, etc. They could not do like we do now, turn on the radio or TV or obtain a Prayer Timetable. However, God must have given a means to determine the times of prayers even for those early communities who did not have the facilities we have today. God must have given them a natural means of determining the times of the prayers.

All the three salat are timed in reference to the movement of the sun in our sky. This is a natural method which can be applied by all people and long before the human devised the sophisticated astronomical charts.

As long as there is any light in the sky (before sunrise and after sunset) we know it is the time for Fajr and Isha respectively.

With the Salat Al-Wusta it is also very easy. When we see no shadow below us when we stand, we know that this is when the sun is highest in the sky. When we start to see the smallest shadow, this is the beginning of the salat al-wusta, it ends when the sun sets. It cannot be easier!

Sixth: The issue of the 'raka'

Finally we come to the issue of how many raka to be observed in each Salat.

The cycle of standing, bowing and prostrating is traditionally called a 'raka'. According to Quranic law, God did not specify any specific number of raka to be observed in the Salat. More important, the word raka does not appear anywhere in the Quran, so we must discard it and only think in terms of standing, bowing and prostrating while commemorating God alone.

The advocates of the 5 prayers claim that the number of raka to be observed during each of the 5 prayers is 24434 respectively. In other words, 2 raka's at fajr, then 4 raka during their 'zohr' prayer, and so on.

For a start, and since there are only three Salat decreed by God for the believers, then this 24434 format is false.

A different group who also advocate the 5 prayer format have come up with some calculations based on the number 19 to claim that the 24434 format has been preserved since Abraham.

These calculations have been proven to be coincidental and thus cannot be considered in any way as divine signs. For more details on this matter, please check the following page: The code 19 and the 24434 format

Some other scholars have claimed that the minimum number of Raka during any prayer must be two. They base their claim on the Quranic concession to shorten the Salat at times of war (4:101). They state that if we are given indication to shorten the Salat, then it must be at least two Raka, that is because it is not feasible to shorten the salat if it were made of just one Raka!

The error in this interpretation is double edged:

1- It is based on a non Quranic concept which is the raka.

2- It is also in error because the Quranic concession to shorten the salat is time related, it is not related to the raka frequency. As mentioned, the concept of 'raka' is not a Quranic concept. The Quran speaks of standing, bowing and prostration without any time or frequency restrictions, which allows us to spend the time we wish in any of these positions. In other words, one can spend one minute in the standing position or ten minutes. One could read the Al-Fatiha (The Key) once or ten times. Equally one may praise God during prostration three times or 20 times. One could prostrate once or five times, and so on.

If we add the fact that different people exercise different speeds in uttering their prayers, then we are once again compelled to accept that shortening the salat is related to the overall time we give to the Salat and not to the number of raka's.

The concession to shorten the Salat given in 4:101 is thus a time related one. God is telling us if you normally spend (as an example) 10 minutes in your Salat, you may spend 2 or 3 minutes when you are at war.

Apart from the fixed one month decreed for fasting, we find that none of the other Islamic practices and rituals have been given a fixed frequency in the Quran, and for a great wisdom too. For more details please see: The Missing Frequencies

format_quote Originally Posted by Regrets1

I asked her and her answer shocked me. She's not that person anymore il post what she said below its abit long but reading little bit of it will tell you how she is now.

Dear muslim sis thanks. Today i feeling strange by reading most of it.. feeling anger cry confusion laughing.... what is she...
U are very calm one .. if i were u .. i took her to highway and gave her under the truck...

Sigh.. as can u ask wht she say about fast. I mean how to perform it. So i can her false ijtihad more.. though this will for knowledge only cuz above u wrote clears all..
I am amazed who taught her like this. It it would be years spent on her.. to make her mind like this...

And muslim sis also ask few questions more for me so our knowledge get increase on upcoming fitnas. frm her answer dont get hurt ok.. she need doctor

Is tahjud prayer is compulsory


Can girl marry more thn one husband at time cuz quran said marry two three or 4 ..

When one performing hajj and after completing he open ihram is it compulsory to go for hunt as allah said واذا حللتم فصطادوا

What u say about this ayah سورة الكهف, الآية 29:
وقل الحق من ربكم فمن شاء فليؤمن ومن شاء فليكفر إنا أعتدنا للظالمين نارا أحاط بهم سرادقها وإن يستغيثوا يغاثوا بماء كالمهل يشوي الوجوه بئس الشراب وساءت مرتفقا
As allah saying who want do shirk and who want to accept islam

If person do not pray on time or keep fast should whe do qadha of it or not

Does quran revealed on our prophet as voice or as written and why are harkat on words like fatha jar and dhama quran never said to put these harakt in it


Also do allah have hands as allah said in quran
سورة الفتح, الآية 10:
إن الذين يبايعونك إنما يبايعون الله يد الله فوق أيديهم فمن نكث فإنما ينكث على نفسه ومن أوفى بما عاهد عليه الله فسيؤتيه أجرا عظيما

سورة المائدة, الآية 64:
وقالت اليهود يد الله مغلولة غلت أيديهم ولعنوا بما قالوا بل يداه مبسوطتان ينفق كيف يشاء وليزيدن كثيرا منهم ما أنزل إليك من ربك طغيانا وكفرا وألقينا بينهم العداوة والبغضاء إلى يوم القيامة كلما أوقدوا نارا للحرب أطفأها الله ويسعون في الأرض فسادا والله لا يحب المفسدين


Hope u dont mind about this

format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama

No need to ask more about it. That post is a strong indication enough on it's own. It's clear that some deviant clown is misleading her and she is following them like a sheep. This is how tahir qadri is as well. His people have you doing sajda in his feet and the people are ignorantly doing it as well. Unless someone they know personally and close enough to them that can knock some sense into them, they won't listen.

Dear bro we need such information to keep in our records for certain works in madaris.. also i am against tahir ul qadri and people not prostrating him but actually kissing his feet..

Sister regrets1,

The points made in the video and in the post you posted, have already been addressed in the thread that I linked to. Quranists cannot even agree how many times to pray. Some say two times, some say three times, and some say five times, as I mentioned here in this post: Why do we follow hadeeths?

That thread proves from the Quran that a sunnah outside of the Quran was revealed to the prophet , and that it must be followed and that not to do so is a sin and misguidance. She needs to show us, why and how, that proof from the Qur'an she claims to follow, doesn't count. But she hasn't.

Please do not bring any more posts/videos things from her if she is not willing to read, ponder and address the points made, because all it does is spread Qur'anists propaganda for them.

she's not ready to listen to or believe anything.

It sounds exactly like that. At the moment it sounds like she doesn't believe in anything, neither the Qur'an she claims to follow, nor the Prophets sunnah. Allah knows best.

She said "we should not be following any narration that is not from Allah swt"

It has been proven from the Qur'an, in the above linked thread, that the sunnah of the Prophet is from Allah. So she should be following it then, by her own beliefs.

The hadeeth rejectors ensnare and entrap people with their so called logic, putting doubts in people's minds, but actually their so-called logic is misplaced, misguided, and self contradictory.

May Allah bring her back to the straight path and save her from misguidance, ameen.

format_quote Originally Posted by samirbrazendale

Asalaamualaykum
There are actually groups that reject Hadeeth openly - so it is possible she walked right into these groups. I am refering to your first statement of either or - i am merely pointing out the third option that these groups do exist and openly declare it.

Where i will find these idiots then.... to hit them really heard for miss guidance to the Muslims