I will be his second wife

I just didn't think it's important to mention about my .... future benefits... as I said I come here for knoledge... so I have no clue how a marriage in Islam is...I tried my best to expose my inner questioning ...

format_quote Originally Posted by SemiraE

I just didn't think it's important to mention about my .... future benefits... as I said I come here for knoledge... so I have no clue how a marriage in Islam is...I tried my best to expose my inner questioning ...

Sister, this is something that amazes me constantly. As a Muslim myself and coming to know about Islamic rulings each time about almost anything, goes to the smallest detail no one even may think about. Nothing is left out on purpose or seen as "not important". Everything is taken in to account. As your own money belongs to you and your future husband STILL has to spend from his own money on you. Like another sister already mentioned this, there is A LOT of wisdom behind it, as in Islam marriage is not ..simply marry a sister, but it is taking CARE of her. You take her away from her father who has taken care of her, now it is your job. Big responsibility, as i myself am not married and thinking about it scares me as i doubt myself that i may do her injustice.

format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb

I am still wondering this thing: as it is allowed via Islamic law to marry more than one wife but at the same time, as it is said that Muslim is obligated to follow the law of the land as long as it does not conflict with Islamic law. Now, Islamic law doesn´t say that a man have to marry more than one wife but it is his right if he wants to. As polygamy isn´t obligatory way to practice Islam, what is the common interpretation in this kind of case? Should Muslim man follow the law of the land or broke it with cases where it is not obligatory to do so. If law forbids Muslim to pray he has to broke the law and follow Islam as praying is obligatory act but what about cases where doing something is not obligatory in Islam?

Logic dictates that he is HAS to obey the law as long as it doesn't go against the obligatory Islamic practices. As you already said..it isn't obligatory, so he according to the law isn't permissible to marry more than 1. If he finds it ..it is his "right", then the choice is easy. This world is big and go to some country that you can marry more than 1 woman . This is logic. It could be off course that I have missed something according to logic, that says something else. Allah knows best.

format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person

Logic dictates that he is HAS to obey the law as long as it doesn't go against the obligatory Islamic practices. As you already said..it isn't obligatory, so he according to the law isn't permissible to marry more than 1. If he finds it ..it is his "right", then the choice is easy. This world is big and go to some country that you can marry more than 1 woman . This is logic. It could be off course that I have missed something according to logic, that says something else. Allah knows best.

Men will find loop holes and go to another country where Sharia law takes precedence.
There is a ethical Islamic practice and if anyone has good Islamic knowledge & intentions then they will not conceal anything.
Allah swt knows best.

He is not married in a civil way, just in Islam. And he did propose we could marry later in a civil way if we get along. By then his kids will be older and can understand him leaving.

format_quote Originally Posted by Finding MEMO

A side note from personal experience - if a European man has had a Civil Marriage with his first wife. As in married with accordance to the law of the land. If he then remarries by Sharia law to another - then he is still breaking the law of the land and therefore will be arrested. Multiple marriages are not allowed.

People generally forget this.

It is funny how hypocrisy works in secular law. I can have multiple girlfriends and they can all know of one another and find it perfectly fine me using them only for my desires, but when it comes to multiple wives and responsibility for those wives and given them their rights, that suddenly is not permitted.

I find it also very strange that relationship with intimacy between teenagers is something normal, but when you say marriage everybody runs as wild beasts objecting against it.

What is the whole deal about marriage? It is exactly the same as a relationship, but you are bound to responsibilities. It looks like people wants to enjoy but no burdens. However, one could say ..let people decide for themselves. I mean if person X is having multiple wives..that is HIS business and the wives that he has married to. Or person Y is 20 years old and he marries a woman who is 40 years old. The whole society gets up..and wants to have their opinion, while nobody is asking of their opinion. I hear in this western country that i am living everybody talking about ..we have different norms and values in this country..blabla..But when you ask them how often they visit their mother..or help somebody you see is struggling with something outside. People LIKE to brand themselves as rolemodels as if they PRACTICES those norms and values of society, but when you dig further about that..all lies...just shallow hypocrites.

Also to dishonest to admit it. This parts annoys me the MOST. If i remember correctly, Rasullah(saws) has said in the end of times useless people will have a say in public affairs. The leaders of countries are the reflection of the people. Good people will fight, but if majority of the people is corrupt and don't fight it, shows they themselves are like that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person

Sister, this is something that amazes me constantly. As a Muslim myself and coming to know about Islamic rulings each time about almost anything, goes to the smallest detail no one even may think about. Nothing is left out on purpose or seen as "not important". Everything is taken in to account. As your own money belongs to you and your future husband STILL has to spend from his own money on you. Like another sister already mentioned this, there is A LOT of wisdom behind it, as in Islam marriage is not ..simply marry a sister, but it is taking CARE of her. You take her away from her father who has taken care of her, now it is your job. Big responsibility, as i myself am not married and thinking about it scares me as i doubt myself that i may do her injustice.

I do understand your point of you (islamic point of view) but as I said, I don't go by the normal laws either. I've been on my own since a very young age, and I do not need anyone to support me in any way but morally. I am very well aware that the man is to provide for the woman even in a non muslim marriage. But I want it equal, splitting everything and sharing everything in the same time.

format_quote Originally Posted by Finding MEMO

Men will find loop holes and go to another country where Sharia law takes precedence.
There is a ethical Islamic practice and if anyone has good Islamic knowledge & intentions then they will not conceal anything.
Allah swt knows best.

I think you also are aware of in Islam our deeds are according to our intentions. I am truly being honest if i say that MAJORITY of men in the present day being Muslims or non-Muslims see women as lust objects. That is why for example, in case of people of other faiths always associate in Islam having multiple wives with being because purely for lust purposes. Like a liar never trusts other people because he himself lies to people and thinks other people are like him, so their mindset is so filthy and think everybody is like him.

Muslim men of the present day however, think by majority just like those men of other faiths. Even more funny you could say that women themselves have become so brainwashed. I remember when i just embraced Islam i had through internet contact with another woman purely for da'wah purposes was my intention. Her biggest fitna was beauty. She saw her self as very attractive and she was posting on that particular social media account all kind of pictures of how beautiful she was, but i was the only one that could see her pictures. I think she thought that men are all alike and just go after beauty. Poor woman. Brainwashed to the core. She once asked me if i her as attractive, i was honest and i said you are not ugly, but also not the most beautiful one to my taste. She had done a nose job, i could swear that she had also done her lips, but she denied every time, however the size of her lips didn't fit her origin as women from that part of the world don't have by majority such large lips and also her face in general. She had done also other part of the female feature because her husband didn't saw her as somebody attractive.

At the end i came to know that her intention to marry him 12 years back was because she could keep on studying and getting her masters. Well at that time that i was talking to her, she was busy finishing her second masters. Well i guess her "dreams" came out as that was her intention for marrying that guy.

format_quote Originally Posted by SemiraE

I do understand your point of you (islamic point of view) but as I said, I don't go by the normal laws either. I've been on my own since a very young age, and I do not need anyone to support me in any way but morally. I am very well aware that the man is to provide for the woman even in a non muslim marriage. But I want it equal, splitting everything and sharing everything in the same time.

Sister, i have also been on my own from a very young age. However what I find as an opinion is one thing, but FOR SURE NOT the BEST way. I open my heart and open my mind and listen to what somebody else or a way of life has to offer with certain kind of wisdom.

A acquaintance of mine a couple of years ago her daughter just moved in with her boyfriend. I heard from that acquaintance that when they moved in, they already knew what belonged to who. So for example the couch belonged to him, the tv belonged to her..etc. etc. I said to that acquaintance of mine, that relationship will NOT survive. I can guarantee you that. After i believe 6 years indeed each one of them head their own way. When somebody already knows and brands something..this is mine and that is yours, is with other words already creating "backup-plans" if it might not work. In a marriage, there is NO backup plan. You angry? Get outside and cool down. Come back in and lets talk things out and fix our problems. Relationships of the modern age are shallow because the intention isn't even pure to go all the way. Everybody already has a backdoor. The relationships are based on love. Love is like a wick, how fast it turns on, is how fast it burns out. Love is just part of the whole relationship, but not the "essential" one. The question we need to ask ourselves, how come we see many elderly people have been together so many years. I have asked many people for the sake of knowledge and wisdom. Many times you hear respect or something in that direction and not love. In Islam, a successful marriage is SERIOUSLY fulfillment. Their connection to each other is through the Creator. As a husband you think twice before doing injustice to your wife and as a wife you also think twice before doing injustice to your husband. Further more, as a husband/wife you do not think about your rights, but you think about the rights of your wife/husband. If the husband/wife does that, she/he will love him/her more and does also do more for her/his husband/wife and his/her rights. The love because of that burns more fiercely. If either one dies, the other is very quickly "recovered" because their connection was through the Creator. While you see for example people who have no faith, they are left for dead you could say as their "other half" doesn't exist anymore and they also just wanna die.

Women can bare children, men don't. Women are emotionally less harsh and more kind than men. These are just two things, however looking at things financially it is a reason why the burden of that is more on the man than on the woman. The biggest problem right now is your insecurity and distrust i THINK. Based on what do i say this? I suspect that you think a man taking care of you is seen as you being less as feminism of the modern age advocates. You can work but your money is yours and nothing goes to him unless YOU say here..you can have some money. Well anyways, do what you think is best for yourself, but keep yourself open for knowledge and wisdom. If you think this is the right way you will shoot yourself in the foot one day. Many times women become a bit cynical after such life experiences. Know yourself and dig in to yourself that you are not yet aware of.

format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb

That´s the other thing. We are now talking about the interpretations of the Islamic law of marriage in kind of situation (polygamy when civil law forbids it), not about the marriage by civil laws. If he didn´t marry in a civil law when he married the first time it doesn´t change the situation as his the first Islamic marriage is valid by a civil law anyways. I understand if this is a bit comblicated to you to understand if Islam and it´s practices aren´t familiar to you.

it is challenging to understand since they do not share a name or a bank account (example) and they are not registered anywhere as a couple but the paper from the Imam when they had nikah, the only way they are tied in a legal way is on their kids's birth certificates...

The taking on of a husbands surname is a misogynistic practice. Women were once treated as property by colonizers. They are still objectified to this day...

British hereditary surnames are only about 1,000 years old. Imported by the French around the time of the Norman Conquest, they estabilised throughout much of English society by the 14th Century, with Celtic regions taking longer to adapt. Married women, however, were perceived to have no surname at all, since the Normans had also brought with them the doctrine of coverture, the legal principle that, upon marriage, a woman became her husband's possession. Her state of namelessness reflected this. In the words of one court in 1340, "when a woman took a husband, she lost every surname except 'wife of'".

Women were forbidden to keep their last names a short handful of decades ago, under the premise that the wedded couple were viewed as “one person” by the law. That one person was the husband, whose identity superseded the wife’s. He was the sole person who could vote, hold property, go to law, etc. In fact, it was only in 1972 that every United State legally allowed a woman to use her maiden name as she pleased.

In Islam, women keep their surnames, not only to keep their identity and independence as a human, but also to keep lineage clear. I would never be able to part with my father's name. I tried that in my first marriage and there wasn't a day I didn't think about it.

So now you know why him and his wife do not share a name. You do have to question why he hasn't married her legally, it is quite suspicious imo. She deserves to have her rights as a legal wife in that land.

format_quote Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth

The taking on of a husbands surname is a misogynistic practice. Women were once treated as property by colonizers. They are still objectified to this day...

In Islam, women keep their surnames, not only to keep their identity and independence as a human, but also to keep lineage clear. I would never be able to part with my father's name. I tried that in my first marriage and there wasn't a day I didn't think about it.

So now you know why him and his wife do not share a name. You do have to question why he hasn't married her legally, it is quite suspicious imo. She deserves to have her rights as a legal wife in that land.

It is so funny that the MOST HARDCORE feminists are waging war against Islam because Islam "is" treating women as "trash", while this hardcore equality that they are fighting for CAN ONLY be found in Islam . Like somebody saying here you have keys for your shackles to get out and be free and you saying to that person "these shackles around my arms, legs and neck are signs of freedom" ...o_O!!???

format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person

I remember about a hadith i believe that Rasullah(saws) has said(I assume you guys also are aware of that one), i judge based on what i know or what you present to me. In this case this, sister tells us 50% and based on this 50% makes it for us 100% and judgement is based on that. The other half now suddenly comes above water and i think also many other sisters here who were advising her, now also have changed their advice somehow. We all agree about the whole secrecy as a no-go and also touching her before marriage is a no-go. The rest is clear.

Yes, and that refers to facts. Based on the information given, a person will make a judgement decision. He will not assume things or insinuate or accuse the person, thereby, reading too much into it without any information or basis. The decision should be made based on the information on the table.

format_quote Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth

The taking on of a husbands surname is a misogynistic practice.

You do have to question why he hasn't married her legally, it is quite suspicious imo. She deserves to have her rights as a legal wife in that land.

No, you do not. That is something he and his first wife needs to discuss or may have discussed. Seems like she is getting more of her rights then the civil law of the land would give her. Why have you been accusatory on this brother from the get go? Is it the misandry of feminism or grudges of personal experience?

format_quote Originally Posted by Finding MEMO

السلام عليكم

Brother Aaj

I think both the men & women on this forum have done a fantastic job of trying to clarify my point.

If you still don't understand my logic regarding loopholes & abusing the Islamic law. Then please do let me know if you need me to elaborate further?

I"m sure they have done a fantastic job, on some other thread. This is the first time I've come across such a statement. Thus the inquiry to elaboration of your statement.

format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb

I am still wondering this thing: as it is allowed via Islamic law to marry more than one wife but at the same time, as it is said that Muslim is obligated to follow the law of the land as long as it does not conflict with Islamic law. Now, Islamic law doesn´t say that a man have to marry more than one wife but it is his right if he wants to. As polygamy isn´t obligatory way to practice Islam, what is the common interpretation in this kind of case? Should Muslim man follow the law of the land or broke it with cases where it is not obligatory to do so. If law forbids Muslim to pray he has to broke the law and follow Islam as praying is obligatory act but what about cases where doing something is not obligatory in Islam?

With regard to the Muslim man who has a second wife, I believe—and Almighty Allah knows best—that he has to follow the channels of law in order to legalize his second marriage in the country he lives in. There are some Muslim brothers who did so through the legitimate channels. They submitted documents to the European countries they reside in to the effect that they have second wives according to the Islamic Law and that the first wives agree to that; they also asserted that they would not give a privilege to one of the wives at the expense of the other. I know a Jordanian Muslim who managed to get residence for his two wives in a European country.

If the attempts to legalize the second marriage fail, the person could document his (second) marriage in one of the Islamic centers, yet, his marriage then would not be regarded legitimate under the law of the country concerned. The problem he might face in the future is regarding getting birth certificates for the children from his second wife. But I think there are some flexible European laws concerning registering names of the children born even from illegitimate relationships.

I advise the Muslims who live in the Western countries to demand their rights in that regard. Foreign non-Muslim minorities who live in the West managed to get approval to exercise their rights pursuant to their religious rituals, such as rights concerning slaughtering animals and burying their dead. Muslims can follow in the same footsteps to get legitimate approvals from the Western countries to exercise the rituals of their religion freely.

- Sheikh Ahmad Hulail, imam of Tariq ibn Ziad Mosque in Frankfort, Germany
http://www.islamawareness.net/Polygamy/fatwa001.html


Muslims living in non-Muslim countries have to comply with laws and regulations of the country they have been entrusted though valid visas to enter. At the same time, they have to avoid whatever contradicts Islamic teachings. In case they are obliged by law to uphold something contrary to Islamic teachings, they have to adhere to the minimum that the law requires of them.
https://en.islamtoday.net/node/604

According to the above text, the minimum requirement of the law is that a man can register only one woman as his wife in the civil law. He can Islamically register his other wives in the Islamic center. If the kuffars want to make it hard and say it's illegal to have polygamy then he can say by their laws he is legally married to one person, so what's the problem?

There are also places that allow polygamy in the west, there are several states in the US that allow polygamy. Also, Jews are allowed to practice their religious laws in civil matters in these western lands and indicated above, Muslims should also demand for these same rights. It seems hypocritical taht the westerners can do whatever they want in Muslim lands, yet they have a problem with Muslims not "integrating" in their haram lifestyle.

format_quote Originally Posted by Finding MEMO

Multiple marriages are not allowed in most parts of the world.

Alcohol is allowed in most parts of the world, should we go drinking then?

Majority does not decide what is acceptable for Muslims or not.

Please don't think this man is doing his wife any favours by staying with her & concealing his intentions.

This is what I will call manipulating Islam to fit your own needs.

He is not doing her any favor, rather he is practicing is Allah given right to polygamy. He is misguided in thinking he can conceal his marriage as a secrete and that can be rectified through the imam giving him dawaah and naseeha on the matter. But I would hardly label his intentions and actions as "manipulating Islam" to "fit his needs".

format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person

It is funny how hypocrisy works in secular law. I can have multiple girlfriends and they can all know of one another and find it perfectly fine me using them only for my desires, but when it comes to multiple wives and responsibility for those wives and given them their rights, that suddenly is not permitted.

I agree.


Actually there are three kinds of polygamy practiced in Western societies:

Serial polygamy, that is, marriage, divorce, marriage, divorce and so on any number of times.
A man married to one woman but having and supporting one or more mistresses.
An unmarried man having a number of mistresses.


In her book The Life and Teachings of Muhammed, Dr. Annie Besant says:

“There is pretended monogamy in the West, but in reality, there is polygamy without responsibility; the mistress is cast off when the man is weary of her ... the first lover has no responsibility for her future, and she is a hundred times worst off then the sheltered wife in a polygamous home.”

“When we see thousands of miserable women who crowd the streets of Western towns during the night, we must surely feel that it does not lie in the Western mouth to reproach Islam for polygamy. It is better for woman, happier for woman, more respectable for woman to live in polygamy, united to one man, only with a legitimate child in her arms and surrounded with respect, than to be seduced and then cast out into the streets, perhaps with illegitimate child outside the rule of law, uncared, unsheltered, to become victim of any passer-by, night after night, rendered incapable of motherhood, despised by all.”