If I was walking, I'd keep walking. If he stopped me, I'd acknowledge his comment, then ask him why he was looking at me in the first place. It isn't a non-mahram's place to make such corrections. Also, from what I can see here, the correction won't even be from a place of caring and compassion, but a self righteous women-are-the-source-of-all-evil-because-I-misunderstand-my-religion-and-the-piece-of-skin-showing-is-damnation-for-all-men, place. Thanks, but no thanks.
Perhaps it's your perception/assumption that those advising you are of the mindset of 'holy then thou' when someone may actually be genuine about it. I rather a woman tell me my fly is open then walk around all day ignorantly.
format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*
The reason I'm asking all these questions is because I see two HUGE issues here. I wonder if anyone can identify them
The manner of the men approaching and the receptiveness of the women to take advice ?
Perhaps it's your perception/assumption that those advising you are of the mindset of 'holy then thou' when someone may actually be genuine about it. I rather a woman tell me my fly is open then walk around all day ignorantly.
Why would a woman be looking at your fly though, you see?
It isn't my perception, it seems to be a common theme. I'm not saying I see all males this way, for example, if a sheikh that knew me well corrected me, I'd take it. I just don't find it necessary for a stranger to correct me about my clothing, that's why I have mahram men in my life. My husband does a very good job at making sure ladies in the house leave dressed properly, Alhamdullilah.
Usually, women watch out for each other in the "your fly is open, skirt is in your pants, blouse button is open" department. I would tell a sister if something was off and it was clearly accidental. I would not correct her if she was clearly dressed a certain way out of choice. Tight jeans with a t-shirt and hijab is a purposeful. She should have family members who can talk to her about that, not my place. If she was a young girl I was mentoring, then sure, I'd try and help out.
It will depend on the situation really, it isn't all the same. But no men telling me how to dress, even if my skirt was in my pants! lol
It will depend on the situation really, it isn't all the same. But no men telling me how to dress, even if my skirt was in my pants! lol
but that's the thing though. Going back to the fly being open and skirt in your pants example. yes, your men check you and let you go out, about your business. But they are not tied to the hip and checking everything is in order. Would you rather go the whole day with your skirt in your pants then someone point it out?
I would like to think rather that I would take advice even from the shaytan if it is of benefit to me.
This kind of reminds me of one of the signs of the Hour where "salam" would be given to only those whom you know.
but that's the thing though. Going back to the fly being open and skirt in your pants example. yes, your men check you and let you go out, about your business. But they are not tied to the hip and checking everything is in order. Would you rather go the whole day with your skirt in your pants then someone point it out?
I would like to think rather that I would take advice even from the shaytan if it is of benefit to me.
This kind of reminds me of one of the signs of the Hour where "salam" would be given to only those whom you know.
I see where you are coming from. I guess I can't really relate because I don't go out alone. I either have a kid with me or my husband+kids, or my brothers or my dad so somebody is always there. I'd feel waaaaay too shy to tell a man his fly is open. I'd feel bad for him, but I wouldn't say anything. So, I just don't know lol.
There are two things: listen advices and allow non-mahram men talk to you (and maybe also talk to them).
It´s not good behavior if some man wants only helps her with kindly advice and she immediately hits him with hers handbag. If sister wants to avoid any contacts to non-mahrams to the last point, she has to know where´s the limit if someone comes to give advice or use giving advice as an excuse for taking contact to her. Not all brothers are sincere even their action might look like.
From Occupied Palestine:
We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.
I see where you are coming from. I guess I can't really relate because I don't go out alone. I either have a kid with me or my husband+kids, or my brothers or my dad so somebody is always there. I'd feel waaaaay too shy to tell a man his fly is open. I'd feel bad for him, but I wouldn't say anything. So, I just don't know lol.
I do understand about the shy part, it would be embarrassing for both. I would say it depends on how strong is your urge/intention to tell the other. Reminds me of one time i told this older sister about eating at mcDonalds. I was a young teen in college, first year, and she was in my class. I saw her eating McDonald in class and it was on more than one occasion. After a few days I finally built up the courage to talk to her after class. My assumption was that perhaps she doesn't know it's not halal meat. So i approached her outside of class after class and told her about it not being halal. She said thanks and left. Little did I know at that time that the arabs believe you can eat meat of the people of the book and so they say 'bismillah' and eat it all that stuff. Her son and i became really good friends at the masjid later on and she even started talking to me in arabic one time, thinking i'm also an arab. lol
Another story about being shy. I was watching this other teacher's class of HS students taking a test while she had to step out to another class. As I paced around the class, I noticed one girl sitting in the front had very low pants and thus was exposing her bottom, especially the boys sitting behind her. I wrote a quick note on a piece of paper telling her to pull her pants up as she her bottom is being exposed to others. Towards the end of the test i slowly passed it to her as i walked by. She quickly pulled her pants up.
So out of genuine concern for others, you could inform them in more than one way. Two things are important in this though, the intention and how you deliver your message and how receptive is the person towards it.
Similarly - if sisters see other sisters dressed inappropriately - should they speak out?
How can we enjoin the good and forbid the evil, unless we advise others?
You start in your own home. It is not unnatural to feel apprehensive and even unwelcoming towards strangers, so don't expect a stranger to listen to you.
When people want dawa and are ready for a change they will seek it. This includes a change of dress.
I have found that people busy addressing the masses, including imams, have alot of work to do at home. You'll see their family doing some questionable things, like the wife posting all family details on facebook for example, eating out at non halal places, daughters wearing fitted clothing, sons having girlfriends....
I'd prefer t o make sure my daughters understand the meaning of hijab and why we wear it, and place my energy in my household, than to go around correcting others. That's the best way to prevent evil, imo.
I do understand about the shy part, it would be embarrassing for both. I would say it depends on how strong is your urge/intention to tell the other. Reminds me of one time i told this older sister about eating at mcDonalds. I was a young teen in college, first year, and she was in my class. I saw her eating McDonald in class and it was on more than one occasion. After a few days I finally built up the courage to talk to her after class. My assumption was that perhaps she doesn't know it's not halal meat. So i approached her outside of class after class and told her about it not being halal. She said thanks and left. Little did I know at that time that the arabs believe you can eat meat of the people of the book and so they say 'bismillah' and eat it all that stuff. Her son and i became really good friends at the masjid later on and she even started talking to me in arabic one time, thinking i'm also an arab. lol
Another story about being shy. I was watching this other teacher's class of HS students taking a test while she had to step out to another class. As I paced around the class, I noticed one girl sitting in the front had very low pants and thus was exposing her bottom, especially the boys sitting behind her. I wrote a quick note on a piece of paper telling her to pull her pants up as she her bottom is being exposed to others. Towards the end of the test i slowly passed it to her as i walked by. She quickly pulled her pants up.
So out of genuine concern for others, you could inform them in more than one way. Two things are important in this though, the intention and how you deliver your message and how receptive is the person towards it.
The note thing is a clever idea bro, good one! I would accept something like that.
LOL @ the McDonald's thing. I've been there, done that. It blows my mind how they don't actually check to see how the animals are slaughtered. Real people of the book actually slaughter their animals in a smilar way that Muslims do. Companies like keystone (One of the McDonald's suppliers) most definitely does not slaughter like people of the book do. *sigh*
The note thing is a clever idea bro, good one! I would accept something like that.
So you are receptive to advice, just depends on the delivery
LOL @ the McDonald's thing. I've been there, done that. It blows my mind how they don't actually check to see how the animals are slaughtered. Real people of the book actually slaughter their animals in a smilar way that Muslims do. Companies like keystone (One of the McDonald's suppliers) most definitely does not slaughter like people of the book do. *sigh*
Not just that, you don't even know if an agnostic/atheist/satanist/hindu/etc is working in that slaughter house rather then a christian let alone a practicing Christian who actually says "in the name of the Lord" before slaughtering.
The note thing is a clever idea bro, good one! I would accept something like that.
LOL @ the McDonald's thing. I've been there, done that. It blows my mind how they don't actually check to see how the animals are slaughtered. Real people of the book actually slaughter their animals in a smilar way that Muslims do. Companies like keystone (One of the McDonald's suppliers) most definitely does not slaughter like people of the book do. *sigh*
To be honest about slaughtering, i do believe Jews do it correctly, however Christians not. I had a male house mate from Eritrea and was a practicing Orthodox Christian. He bought meat at the grocery store but did not eat halal meat that i bought at the Islamic slaughtering house. So i asked him a few questions, it turned out that he did not eat halal meat because it was slaughtered in Allah's name, although he did not answer my question about the slaughtering method here in the west..which is not slaughtered in anybody's name. However i also found out that that he said that back home they slaughter animals in the name of Jesus(as). That was a very big surprise to me. i was careful before with meat slaughtered by Christians i am now even in red-alert phase. So better not eat meat from them to be on the safe side.
To be honest about slaughtering, i do believe Jews do it correctly, however Christians not. I had a male house mate from Eritrea and was a practicing Orthodox Christian. He bought meat at the grocery store but did not eat halal meat that i bought at the Islamic slaughtering house. So i asked him a few questions, it turned out that he did not eat halal meat because it was slaughtered in Allah's name, although he did not answer my question about the slaughtering method here in the west..which is not slaughtered in anybody's name. However i also found out that that he said that back home they slaughter animals in the name of Jesus(as). That was a very big surprise to me. i was careful before with meat slaughtered by Christians i am now even in red-alert phase. So better not eat meat from them to be on the safe side.
Not necessarily true. We get our chickens from a Christian (Mennonite) slaughter house and we are very strict on proper slaughter method and humane raising of animals. You have to get to know your slaughter house and your farmers. Even at halal meat shops, they sell questionable things like machine slaughtered meats and such. I used to make the butcher show me the boxes and tags or all the meats I would buy and go home and phone them myself to ask questions(before I moved to the middle of nowhere). You should be on alert no matter where you buy your meat. Some Christians don't care about their food source, some do. Some Muslims don't care about their food source, some do. Same for Jews.
I've seen a lot of young sisters dress inappropriately, however, when one tries to give them naseeha it is rejected with venom.
YES!
format_quote Originally Posted by aaj
The manner of the men approaching and the receptiveness of the women to take advice ?
Ding! ding! ding!
It is perplexing to me that sisters have such a problem with brothers advising them or pointing something out to them, subhanallah.
I also find it so disheartening that brothers react to that and do not say anything at all, and in retaliation, see sisters in a very negative way as if the way they dress is purposely done to seduce men. There is a terrible assumption from both sides.
The most hated speech to Allaah is when a man says to another man, ‘Fear Allaah!’ and he replies, ‘Worry about your own self!’ “
It was reported by Al-Asbahaanee in At-Targheeb (739), and Al-Albaanee authenticated it in Silsilatul-Ahaadeethis-Saheehah (2598).
I feel that unfortunately this is the attitude adopted by muslims when it comes to advising one another.
Some sisters need to stop acting like brothers are supposed to walk around without eyes. If your hijaab slips, if your arms are showing, if you're wearing tight clothing, etc. even I as a woman who is not even looking at other women will easily notice the way other women are dressed. So not every man is out there to seek lustful stares at you or is probably even staring.
And bros, while I understand sisters can be venemous as described , you can be creative with letting them know something has gone awry with their attire. One ways is note passing as described above. What are some other ways that sisters won't find threatening or odd? Can we brainstorm about this for a bit. Mashallah I am in awe at the brothers who actually do say something though, jazakum allahu khair. I'll share some experiences later inshallah.
Some sisters need to stop acting like brothers are supposed to walk around without eyes. If your hijaab slips, if your arms are showing, if you're wearing tight clothing, etc. even I as a woman who is not even looking at other women will easily notice the way other women are dressed. So not every man is out there to seek lustful stares at you or is probably even staring.
It doesn't matter if the stare is lustful or not. I don't personally appreciate a strange man approaching me for anything really, my clothing is no exception. If I get stopped for directions or something by a man (muslim or not!) I get very uncomfortable and do my best to end the conversation asap. I know for sure I'm not alone on this. It isn't appropriate. Even when I wasn't Muslim, in my culture, men stick with men and women stick with women, generally.
Maybe perspectives are different as we are all raised differently, but I don't see why it is perplexing that women are not welcoming men's advice. More often than not, men have female relatives around who can convey the message. That's more acceptable and I'm sure better welcomed. As I stated before, those who are interested in dawa generally look for it. I've sat in plenty of male led dawa and lectures who address women's issues, I'm perfectly okay with that.
So, what I can see from this discussion is that nothing should be blanketed. Men are not all out to lust over women, and women who don't want advice from men are not venomous and out to seduce men. lol. There's common courtesy and there's methods of delivering information if it is warranted. The note thing that brother Aaj mentioned is a good way, imo.
Also, it needs to be considered that when women purposely wear tight fitting clothes, they are AWARE of what they are doing. They have either convinced themselves it is permissible, or they don't care. Does this warrant a stranger's advice?. Is it the clothing that needs to be addressed or their relationship with Allah? I think the latter, as the dress is always affected by the person's imaan.
Meaning of Shirk according to The Qur'an
" Worshipping anyone or anything besides Allah " or " distributing anything exclusive to Allah, to anyone or anything else "
Meaning of Tawheed according to The Qur'an Worshipping none but Allah. Affirming whatever is exclusive to Him, Him alone.
I am curious about how many of brothers whose has took part to this discussion (or read this only) have adviced unknown sisters about their dressing? If yes, how you have done it or if not, what has been the reasons?
it's not worth telling them directly like that as they'd probably just get annoyed and be even more rebellious if we 'critisize them' like that so next time we might see them dressing even worse!
It doesn't matter if the stare is lustful or not. I don't personally appreciate a strange man approaching me for anything really, my clothing is no exception. If I get stopped for directions or something by a man (muslim or not!) I get very uncomfortable and do my best to end the conversation asap. I know for sure I'm not alone on this. It isn't appropriate. Even when I wasn't Muslim, in my culture, men stick with men and women stick with women, generally.
Maybe perspectives are different as we are all raised differently, but I don't see why it is perplexing that women are not welcoming men's advice. More often than not, men have female relatives around who can convey the message. That's more acceptable and I'm sure better welcomed. As I stated before, those who are interested in dawa generally look for it. I've sat in plenty of male led dawa and lectures who address women's issues, I'm perfectly okay with that.
So, what I can see from this discussion is that nothing should be blanketed. Men are not all out to lust over women, and women who don't want advice from men are not venomous and out to seduce men. lol. There's common courtesy and there's methods of delivering information if it is warranted. The note thing that brother Aaj mentioned is a good way, imo.
Also, it needs to be considered that when women purposely wear tight fitting clothes, they are AWARE of what they are doing. They have either convinced themselves it is permissible, or they don't care. Does this warrant a stranger's advice?. Is it the clothing that needs to be addressed or their relationship with Allah? I think the latter, as the dress is always affected by the person's imaan.
I respectfully disagree. I understand that you have a general discomfort with men, that's ok. That's you. I personally don't have a problem with anyone who seeks pleasing Allah. As someone who wears hijaab properly for the intention of pleasing Allah, if my attire is not proper (eg. my hair is sticking out in the back, or my chest is bare) and a brother spots it, I would much rather prefer that he lets me know in that instant than for me to walk around and have a hundred people see me this way. I might be embarrassed for a bit that it was a brother who told me, but why should that feeling overpower what is fardh?
As you can see from the replies, most brothers don't even approach sisters. They're saying "it's not my place to do so" or "I don't want to cause her discomfort" so I'm guessing the small percentage of brothers that do have the courage to say something do NOT do it out of ill intentions, nor can I see how it would be that way.
Now when it comes to advising a sister to wear hijaab properly, and I'm speaking about someone who is wearing tight clothing or her arms are barren, we also should not always assume these girls know what they are doing. I've come across girls who think adorning the eyes with eyeliner is ok because kohl is sunnah. Some think wearing tight clothing is ok as long as the shirt is long enough to cover her front and behind. Some girls think its ok to cover your entire face with make up because "only allah can judge me" or because they are new and all the hijaabis these days on youtube and social media have tutorials on it so it's seen as the "norm." While mashallah we have a lot of information, we have just as much misinformation. You make the assumption that dawah is sought after so no one should put in the effort to help or give advice. That's ill advice. It's not easy to sincerely advise strangers, so kudos to those who have that courage and love for their brethren.
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*charisma* liked this post
, you can be creative with letting them know something has gone awry with their attire. One ways is note passing as described above. What are some other ways that sisters won't find threatening or odd? Can we brainstorm about this for a bit. Mashallah I am in awe at the brothers who actually do say something though, jazakum allahu khair. I'll share some experiences later inshallah.
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