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    God and evolution (OP)


    This thread is for people who believe in evolution. If you don't believe in evolution, please ignore this thread. This isn't a debate thread.

    http://www.mikraite.org/Human-Evolution-tp17.html

    This is an old post of mine explaining the relationship between God and evolution. I wrote it before I learned about Islam, so it was written based on the Old Testament. But I believe that it will make sense to Muslims who believe in evolution. I would like to know what you think.

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    Re: God and evolution

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    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
    Evolution is falsifiable. Just google "evolution falsifiable" and find numerous examples of how evolution could be falsified. The only reason that evolution doesn't qualified as hard science is because it is not EXPERIMENTALLY falsifiable. But evolution is science because it is falsifiable by discovered evidence.
    The scientific evolution:

    'change over time', 'descent with modification', or 'the change of allele frequencies of a population over time'.

    This is well established, testable, falsifiable and provable.


    "Evolution" according to neo-darwinian scenario:

    'the idea that all life has descended from a single common ancestor over millions of years via a net gain in new genetic information'.

    This is a speculation; not testable, not falsifiable and not provable.

    Fallacy of equivocation:

    Atheists & Darwinists use undeniable examples of 'change over time' (variation) to prove 'the idea that all life has descended from a single common ancestor over millions of years via a net gain in new genetic information' (microbe-like-to-man evolution).

    This inexcusable logic is called equivocation or the bait-and-switch fallacy, and occurs when someone changes the definition of a word halfway through an argument.
    The supposed Evidence for Evolution is full of examples of 'change over time' as evidence for microbes-to-man evolution.

    http://quranscientificerror.blogspot.com/2013/08/re-quran-scientific-errors-on-evolution.html


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    Re: God and evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Good brother View Post
    The scientific evolution:

    'change over time', 'descent with modification', or 'the change of allele frequencies of a population over time'.

    This is well established, testable, falsifiable and provable.


    "Evolution" according to neo-darwinian scenario:

    'the idea that all life has descended from a single common ancestor over millions of years via a net gain in new genetic information'.

    This is a speculation; not testable, not falsifiable and not provable.

    Fallacy of equivocation:


    Atheists & Darwinists use undeniable examples of 'change over time' (variation) to prove 'the idea that all life has descended from a single common ancestor over millions of years via a net gain in new genetic information' (microbe-like-to-man evolution).

    This inexcusable logic is called equivocation or the bait-and-switch fallacy, and occurs when someone changes the definition of a word halfway through an argument.
    The supposed Evidence for Evolution is full of examples of 'change over time' as evidence for microbes-to-man evolution.

    http://quranscientificerror.blogspot.com/2013/08/re-quran-scientific-errors-on-evolution.html

    No. If you falsify the first (The scientific evolution) then you have falsified the second ("Evolution" according to neo-darwinian scenario). Therefore the second is falsifiable.

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    Re: God and evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
    No. If you falsify the first (The scientific evolution) then you have falsified the second ("Evolution" according to neo-darwinian scenario). Therefore the second is falsifiable.
    No scientist ever claimed what you say: "'the change of allele frequencies of a population over time'" is a fact while the claim of evolution of a microbe(starting point A)-to man (End point B) has never been -and will never be-falsifiable.


    Attachment 6435


    No human can bring the first microbe on earth and test its progeny by follow-up and observation.
    Last edited by Good brother; 06-13-2018 at 10:45 PM.
    God and evolution


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    Re: God and evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Good brother View Post
    the idea that all life has descended from a single common ancestor over millions of years via a net gain in new genetic information.
    Atheists & Darwinists use undeniable examples of 'change over time' (variation) to prove 'the idea that all life has descended from a single common ancestor over millions of years via a net gain in new genetic information' (microbe-like-to-man evolution).
    Isn't this also observable in the fact that the diverse human race is descended from Adam ?

    Seest thou not that Allah sends down rain from the sky? With it We then bring out produce of various colours. And in the mountains are tracts white and red, of various shades of colour, and black intense in hue. (Surah Fatir, 27)

    And so amongst people and crawling creatures and cattle, are they of various colours. Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants, who have knowledge: for Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving. (Surah Fatir, 28)

    And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours: verily in that are Signs for those who know. (Surah Ar-Rum, 22)

    And the things on this earth which He has multiplied in varying colours (and qualities): verily in this is a sign for people who celebrate the praises of Allah (in gratitude). (Surah An-Nahl, 13)

    And how do we falsify a plain and undeniable fact once it has been accepted by those concerned? - such as the liger and tigon and the liliger etc?

    I know that Allah also uses falsification when instructing us to think in the Quran, but this is for the sake of argument for the benefit those who may still be in doubt, but once an absolute truth is accepted without doubt, He discards falsification:

    Eg:

    لَوْ كَانَ فِيهِمَا آلِهَةٌ إِلَّا اللَّهُ لَفَسَدَتَا فَسُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَرْشِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ


    If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides Allah, there would have been disorder and confusion in both! but glory to Allah, the Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!

    Quran 21:22



    قُل لَّوْ كَانَ مَعَهُ آلِهَةٌ كَمَا يَقُولُونَ إِذًا لَّابْتَغَوْا إِلَىٰ ذِي الْعَرْشِ سَبِيلًا

    Muhammad Asad
    Say: "If there were-as some people assert [other] deities side by side with Him, surely [even] they would have to strive to find a way unto Him who is enthroned on His almightiness?"

    M. M. Pickthall
    Say (O Muhammad, to the disbelievers): If there were other gods along with Him, as they say, then had they sought a way against the Lord of the Throne.

    Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
    Say: If there had been (other) gods with Him, as they say,- behold, they would certainly have sought out a way to the Lord of the Throne!

    Quran 17:42


    مَا اتَّخَذَ اللَّهُ مِن وَلَدٍ وَمَا كَانَ مَعَهُ مِنْ إِلَٰهٍ إِذًا لَّذَهَبَ كُلُّ إِلَٰهٍ بِمَا خَلَقَ وَلَعَلَا بَعْضُهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ


    M. M. Pickthall
    Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any god along with Him; else would each god have assuredly championed that which he created, and some of them would assuredly have overcome others. Glorified be Allah above all that they allege.

    Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
    No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him!

    Quran 23:91




    This sounds like an invitation to consider with falsification, but then when theoretical arguments are put forth after the acceptance of the solid fact, He treats such arguments with simple logical argument - and absolute contempt when frivolous arguments are put forth forth primarily for contention and denial:


    فَذَٰلِكُمُ اللَّهُ رَبُّكُمُ الْحَقُّ فَمَاذَا بَعْدَ الْحَقِّ إِلَّا الضَّلَالُ فَأَنَّىٰ تُصْرَفُونَ

    M. M. Pickthall
    Such then is Allah, your rightful Lord. After the Truth what is there saving error? How then are ye turned away!

    Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
    Such is Allah, your real Cherisher and Sustainer: apart from truth, what (remains) but error? How then are ye turned away?

    Quran 10:32




    وَالَّذِينَ يُحَاجُّونَ فِي اللَّهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا اسْتُجِيبَ لَهُ حُجَّتُهُمْ دَاحِضَةٌ عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ وَعَلَيْهِمْ غَضَبٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ شَدِيدٌ

    Muhammad Asad
    And as for those who would [still] argue about God after He has been acknowledged [by them] all their arguments are null and void in their Sustainer’s sight, and upon them will fall [His] condemnation, and for them is suffering severe in store.

    M. M. Pickthall
    And those who argue concerning Allah after He hath been acknowledged, their argument hath no weight with their Lord, and wrath is upon them and theirs will be an awful doom.

    Quran 42:16



    كَذَّبَتْ قَبْلَهُمْ قَوْمُ نُوحٍ وَالْأَحْزَابُ مِن بَعْدِهِمْ وَهَمَّتْ كُلُّ أُمَّةٍ بِرَسُولِهِمْ لِيَأْخُذُوهُ وَجَادَلُوا بِالْبَاطِلِ لِيُدْحِضُوا بِهِ الْحَقَّ فَأَخَذْتُهُمْ فَكَيْفَ كَانَ عِقَابِ



    Muhammad Asad
    to the truth gave the lie, before their time, the people of Noah and, after them, all those [others] who were leagued together [against God’s message-bearers]; and each of those communities schemed against the apostle sent unto them, aiming to lay hands on him; and they contended [against his message] with fallacious arguments, so as to render void the truth thereby: but then I took them to task - and how awesome was My retribution!

    M. M. Pickthall
    The folk of Noah and the factions after them denied (their messengers) before these, and every nation purposed to seize their messenger and argued falsely, (thinking) thereby to refute the Truth. Then I seized them, and how (awful) was My punishment.

    Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
    But (there were people) before them, who denied (the Signs),- the People of Noah, and the Confederates (of Evil) after them; and every People plotted against their prophet, to seize him, and disputed by means of vanities, therewith to condemn the Truth; but it was I that seized them! and how (terrible) was My Requital!

    Quran 40:5




    --------------



    For example, He has Moses invite Pharaoh, and Pharaoh requests an opportunity to compete at an equally agreeable venue:


    فَلَنَأْتِيَنَّكَ بِسِحْرٍ مِّثْلِهِ فَاجْعَلْ بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكَ مَوْعِدًا لَّا نُخْلِفُهُ نَحْنُ وَلَا أَنتَ مَكَانًا سُوًى



    But we surely can bring you magic like it; so appoint a agreement between us and you, which shall not be broken, neither by us, nor by you, at a place/position equal (convenient).

    Quran 20:58



    Moses accepts by Allah's leave:



    قَالَ مَوْعِدُكُمْ يَوْمُ الزِّينَةِ وَأَن يُحْشَرَ النَّاسُ ضُحًى


    (Moses) said: "Your agreement is the Day of the celebration, and let the people be assembled when the sun is well up."

    Quran 20:59



    They are however warned to refrain from inventing unjust falsehood:


    قَالَ لَهُم مُّوسَىٰ وَيْلَكُمْ لَا تَفْتَرُوا عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِبًا فَيُسْحِتَكُم بِعَذَابٍ وَقَدْ خَابَ مَنِ افْتَرَىٰ

    Muhammad Asad
    Said Moses to them: "Woe unto you! Do not invent lies against God, lest He afflict you with most grievous suffering: for He who contrives [such] a lie is already undone!"

    M. M. Pickthall
    Moses said unto them: Woe unto you! Invent not a lie against Allah, lest He extirpate you by some punishment. He who lieth faileth miserably.

    Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
    Moses said to him: Woe to you! Forge not ye a lie against Allah, lest He destroy you (at once) utterly by chastisement: the forger must suffer frustration!"

    Quran 20:61


    Then the unjust Pharaoh inevitably loses, his scientists accept the truth, blind rage, false accusations, and injustice ensue with a well displayed power struggle before the masses, then comes a totally cheeky and illogical challenge where he has a tower built to overshadow the God of Moses - despite his denial of the existence of such God.


    وَقَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ يَا أَيُّهَا الْمَلَأُ مَا عَلِمْتُ لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَٰهٍ غَيْرِي فَأَوْقِدْ لِي يَا هَامَانُ عَلَى الطِّينِ فَاجْعَل لِّي صَرْحًا لَّعَلِّي أَطَّلِعُ إِلَىٰ إِلَٰهِ مُوسَىٰ وَإِنِّي لَأَظُنُّهُ مِنَ الْكَاذِبِينَ



    And Pharaoh said: "O you Chiefs! no god do I know for you other than myself: therefore, kindle for me O haman (to bake bricks) on clay, and make for me a SARH (castle, palace, imposing structure) that I may mount up to the god of Moses: and as far as I am concerned, I think he's (Moses) a liar!"



    Then Pharaoh gets intoxicated with his riches and power, and becomes Lucifer:


    فَقَالَ أَنَا رَبُّكُمُ الْأَعْلَىٰ

    Then said: "I AM your Lord, Most High

    Quran 79:24




    Then once Pharaoh's illogical falsehood, injustice, and arrogance have peaked, he gets discarded with contempt:


    فَأَخَذَهُ اللَّهُ نَكَالَ الْآخِرَةِ وَالْأُولَىٰ

    Muhammad Asad
    And thereupon God took him to task, [and made him] a warning example in the life to come as well as in this world.

    M. M. Pickthall
    So Allah seized him (and made him) an example for the after (life) and for the former.



    So Allah siezed him/took him to task an exemplary corrective punishment for the last and the first.

    Quran 79:25



    إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَعِبْرَةً لِّمَن يَخْشَىٰ

    Muhammad Asad
    In this, behold, there is a lesson indeed for all who stand in awe [of God].

    M. M. Pickthall
    Lo! herein is indeed a lesson for him who feareth.

    Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
    Verily in this is an instructive warning for whosoever feareth (Allah).

    Quran 79:26




    See also Quran Chapter 43:46-64 for other invalid falsification methods.




    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Good brother View Post
    No scientist ever claimed what you say: "'the change of allele frequencies of a population over time'" is a fact while the claim of evolution of a microbe(starting point A)-to man (End point B) has never been -and will never be-falsifiable.


    Attachment 6435


    No human can bring the first microbe on earth and test its progeny by follow-up and observation.
    But we can observe the journey of the sperm (which is again a base fluid identical in appearance to that of most developed creatures) from initiation to birth as (khalq an aakhar), then it's journey and trials onward until producing new sperm with code slightly different to itself at every inception - and insemination into a female with slightly different genetic makeup and make conclusions based on that in order to ponder on how such a proposition is possible.



    And we can also prove with logic beyond reasonable doubt that an eternal being whom we call Allah exists.without seeing Him - to the extent of Yaqeen.


    A falsifiable hypothesis:
    There has always been contention over scientific methodology and the way it has sometimes been used by those with a monopoly on public voice to reject truth via a rigid talmudic method in contrast to a more honest and open-minded method - we can observe these limitations for example in the rejection by resourceful Harvard of Carl Sagan and his resulting constrainment to smaller and less resourceful universities.


    --------


    In 1968, Sagan was denied tenure at Harvard. He later indicated the decision was very much unexpected.[25] The tenure denial has been blamed on several factors, including that he focused his interests too broadly across a number of areas (while the norm in academia is to become a renowned expert in a narrow specialty), and perhaps because of his well-publicized scientific advocacy, which some scientists perceived as borrowing the ideas of others for little more than self-promotion.[21] An advisor from his years as an undergraduate student, Harold Urey, wrote a letter to the tenure committee recommending strongly against tenure for Sagan.

    Sagan was among[clarification needed] the first to hypothesize that Saturn's moon Titan might possess oceans of liquid compounds on its surface and that Jupiter's moon Europa might possess subsurface oceans of water. This would make Europa potentially habitable.[31] Europa's subsurface ocean of water was later indirectly confirmed by the spacecraft Galileo. The mystery of Titan's reddish haze was also solved with Sagan's help. The reddish haze was revealed to be due to complex organic molecules constantly raining down onto Titan's surface.

    Sagan is best known, however, for his research on the possibilities of extraterrestrial life, including experimental demonstration of the production of amino acids from basic chemicals by radiation.

    As of 2017, Sagan is the most cited SETI scientist and one of the most cited planetary scientists.

    Former student David Morrison describes Sagan as "an 'idea person' and a master of intuitive physical arguments and 'back of the envelope' calculations,"[21] and Gerard Kuiper said that "Some persons work best in specializing on a major program in the laboratory; others are best in liaison between sciences. Dr. Sagan belongs in the latter group."

    Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time – when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.
    Carl Sagan, from Demon-Haunted World (1995)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan
    Last edited by Abz2000; 06-14-2018 at 08:12 AM.
    God and evolution













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    anatolian's Avatar
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    Re: God and evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Good brother View Post
    The Great Chain of Being has nothing to do with Darwinism. It's a greek philosophical idea of an order to creation.

    Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory
    Salam. Since the subject is heated frequently here and everywhere I thought it is a good idea to discuss its Islamic roots if there is any. I personall...
    And Ibn Khaldun's evolution theory has nothing to do with Darwinism too. Probably Lamarck, who influenced Darwin, was influenced by Ibn Khaldun's opinions. And its quite possible that he was influenced by the greeks however it doesn have to be same. Scientific theories are like human beings. They are born, grow and die but give birth to some other scientific theories. Thats the very nature of science. Darwin's E.T. has already been falsified by the modern biology but it gave birth to a newer version of an E.T. The issue here is the general "theory of evolution". Does the evolution exist or not? For me it does and it does not contradict with Islam.
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