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  1. #1
    ameerkam's Avatar
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    Studying other religions/philosophy.

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    Salaam.

    Is it permissible to study other religions or philosophy. Some scholars/speakers cite the bible or books like that to further explain the Quran. However, I’ve come across a Hadith where the Prophet became angry at a man because he was reading the Torah.
    Was this because of the time this happened? Like Islam was in its early foundations and no one should have been corrupted then? Would anyone say that this Hadith was specific to the time?
    Also, would it be impermissible for a Muslim who doesn’t have extensive knowledge in the Quran, sunnah, fiqh etc. be able to look at other religions, or philosophy?

    Jazzakallahu Khair.

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    umie's Avatar
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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    the thorah and the bible are both replaced by the Quran...they both are not valid anymore...besides, both books are corrupted and cannot be trusted anymore. it is not safe to accept nor to reject anything from these books....because you might accept something which is not right....or you might reject something which was correct....both dangerous situations. of course they might contain some historical stuff which might explain certain verses of the quraan better....but still...you have to have knowledge for being able to filter between what it right and what is wrong in those books.

    But even if those books were pure, totally not corrupted...even then, they might state something which is not valid anymore, because the Quraan has been altering some of the rules.

    in the same hadeeth you mentioned, it was Umar by the way who read the thorad, Muhammed sas said "even if Moses were to appear before you and you were to follow him, leaving me aside, you would certainly stray into error; for if (Moses) were alive (now), and he found my prophetical ministry, he would have definitely followed me".

    we all know, Moses as was a true follower of Allah...so what is a more trustworthy Thorah than Moses as in person who personally recited it to his people? But even if you followed him, instead of Muhammed sas...you would stray into error...because the thorah is not valid anymore.

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    fschmidt's Avatar
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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Here is my argument for studying the Old Testament:

    http://www.mikraite.org/The-Old-Test...ms-tp1844.html

    Mikraite - The Old Testament for Muslims
    The Old Testament for Muslims. Here I will argue why the Old Testament has value for Muslims. First I will consider what the Quran has to say. Many Muslims claim that because the Old Testament has......

  5. #4
    umie's Avatar
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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    What you are saying is not true dear fschmidt.
    here is your post on that site and my reactions on it:

    Here I will argue why the Old Testament has value for Muslims.

    First I will consider what the Quran has to say. Many Muslims claim that because the Old Testament has been corrupted, it has no value. The Quran clearly contradicts this idea. In Quran 5:43 God says "they have the Torah in which is the decision of Allah". This makes clear that God considers the Torah (Old Testament) to be valid at the time of the Quran, containing God's decisions. Quran 5:48 says:

    "To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allâh had willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so compete in good deeds."

    You have to understand the background of these verses:

    What happened is that one time there was an adulterer from amongst the Jews whom the Jews had to punish. They went to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) seeking advice as to what they should do with the man. The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied back that they should judge this man according to their own Law and that was stoning the adulterer. They tried to hide the verse from the Prophet (peace be upon him) but the Prophet's companion Abdullah ibn Salam who was familiar with the scriptures pointed out the verse and exposed the Jews deception. Then the Prophet (peace be upon him) had that man stoned in accordance with the law found in the Torah. Allah then revealed Surah 5:43 in order to criticize the Jews who did this.

    For this competition (in good deeds) to make sense, both the Torah and the Quran must be valid at the same time, each representing a slightly different law and way.

    And finally Quran 28:49 says "Then bring a Book from Allâh, which is a better guide than these two (Torah and Quran), that I may follow it, if you are truthful." This also seems to clearly say that both are good guides.

    There is nothing in the Quran saying that the Old Testament is invalid.

    There are many verses in the Quraan stating that it is for all mankind...without exclusion.
    for example: 2:185...5:68...18:54...30:58...39:27...
    Surah 5:68 is especially interesting since it is commanding the Christians and Jews to not only follow the Torah and Gospel, but the Qur'an as well.

    What is the benefit of studying the Old Testament? The benefit is that it suggests a means of interpretation of the Quran.

    Let's consider how Muslims currently interpret the Quran. At one extreme are sunnis who only use hadith. They generally reject reason and tend to be too willing to accept many questionable hadiths as authentic in order to have sufficient material. They also fail to recognize that Muhammad did what was optimal in his time and circumstance, and that this may not be optimal today. At the other extreme are the quranists who claim to only use the Quran. But in fact this is not possible because the Quran is a book of principles, not of details, so the details must come from somewhere. And so the details tend to come from modern culture. This is significantly worse than the sunni approach because modern culture is pure evil, a degenerate cesspool headed toward collapse. So the end result is that Muslims basically vary along one dimension, with inflexible traditional sunnis at one end, and liberal degenerates at the other end.
    Sunnis only use hadeeth? where did you get that one from? No Muslim uses only hadeeth...if you reject the Quraan than you are not a Muslim anymore...literally. so, your argument does not hold water. Sunnis use both, hadeeth plus Quraan. both are essential reject either one of them, and you are on the edge of faith. Besides, Sunnis do not reject reason at all. on the contrary, Islaam is a logical religion...everything, every rule and every hadeeth is logical. it may appear otherwise, but if you dive in it deep in it you will find the logic and reason behind it. I am a sunni myself and I totally do not recognise your statement in my religion. So is the majority of all muslims. I do not know what you exactly mean with quranists, but it seems to me very unlikely that there are muslims who only use the Quraan and reject the hadeeth....again, rejecting either one of them makes you a disbeliever.
    The details do not come from modern culture as you state in your post...it comes from hadeeth...it comes from narrations of people who have lived with our Prophet sas, who have seen him, talked with him, walked with him and felt with him.
    Muhammed sas showed and teached us these details...what to do, how to act, what to say, how to pray, etc. and you can find those in the hadeeth.
    so, the distinction between inflexible traditional sunnis and liberal quranis does not exist.

    The way out of this is suggested in the Old Testament. It is the study of history. In effect, the study of history (and science) can be considered the study of the sunnah of God. By studying history, we can answer the question of which kinds of practices were common in rising cultures and which kinds of practices were common in falling cultures. This tells us which kinds of practices are good and bad. The Old Testament starts by explaining God's will in the Torah, in the first five chapters. This is similar to the Quran itself. But then the rest of the Old Testament is supplementary material which shows these how principles are applied in history and are understood by various prophets. It is this whole package which provides a mental framework for understanding the world, and this can then be extended to a general study of history and science.
    Sunnah and hadeeth refer to our Prophet sas...as said, they are narrations of people who have known our Prophet sas. No one ever has seen, heard or met God, so there is no "sunna of God".
    but you are right in some way...the Bible is in fact narrations of people who have known Jesus as. So it can be seen as sunna of Jesus as...and since Jesus as is God to you...you see it as "sunna of God". the Old Testament part contains parts of the Thorah and Gospels for what I know...it contains some truth, but it is altered by the Quraan. Of course it can be studied as a historical subject...it is not totally out of value of course...but it does not have the jurisprudence anymore like it used to have before the Quraan....and of course we are talking about the original Thorah here, in original language...which does not exist anymore...not the modern one you can buy in every book store.

    As a Muslim, you can take the Quran as the core message and then use history and science to better understand this message. This approach leads neither to inflexible thinking nor to liberal degeneracy. It simply leads to truth.

    We read the Old Testament online every Saturday. Please feel free to join us.
    This is already being done. we use history and science to better understand the Quraan. Again, the Thorah and the Old Testament are not totally out of value...they contain historical information how rules have been evolved etc. of course this will contribute for better understanding the Quraan. So this last part of your post, I totally agree with you.
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  7. #5
    fschmidt's Avatar
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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    You have to understand the background of these verses:

    What happened is that one time there was an adulterer from amongst the Jews whom the Jews had to punish. They went to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) seeking advice as to what they should do with the man. The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied back that they should judge this man according to their own Law and that was stoning the adulterer. They tried to hide the verse from the Prophet (peace be upon him) but the Prophet's companion Abdullah ibn Salam who was familiar with the scriptures pointed out the verse and exposed the Jews deception. Then the Prophet (peace be upon him) had that man stoned in accordance with the law found in the Torah. Allah then revealed Surah 5:43 in order to criticize the Jews who did this.
    I don't see how this conflicts with my point. Note that "their own Law" is "the decision of Allah" according to Quran 5:43.

    There are many verses in the Quraan stating that it is for all mankind...without exclusion.
    for example: 2:185...5:68...18:54...30:58...39:27...
    Surah 5:68 is especially interesting since it is commanding the Christians and Jews to not only follow the Torah and Gospel, but the Qur'an as well.
    Yes Surah 5:68 supports my view that all have value. But is it saying that all people of scripture must keep the sabbath and keep ramadan? I don't think so. The principles of the 3 scriptures are the same, but details vary. So Surah 5:68 means to keep the principles of all 3 while 5:48 suggests a competition based on which scripture one chooses for the details.

    Sunnis only use hadeeth?
    You took this out of context. I meant only use hadith to interpret the Quran.

    Besides, Sunnis do not reject reason at all. on the contrary, Islaam is a logical religion...everything, every rule and every hadeeth is logical. it may appear otherwise, but if you dive in it deep in it you will find the logic and reason behind it.
    There are plenty of silly rules based on hadiths. For example, the idea that there is something wrong with dog saliva is just silly with no logic or reason behind it. Please note that this isn't a criticism of Islam, but only a criticism of the sunni interpretation of Islam. I have a lot of confidence in the judgement of Muhammad and I am sure he had a good reason to be concerned about dogs at some time, like maybe there was a rabies epidemic. The problem isn't with Muhammad's actions, but rather with the lack of critical thinking that sunnis apply to Muhammad's actions.

    I do not know what you exactly mean with quranists, but it seems to me very unlikely that there are muslims who only use the Quraan and reject the hadeeth....again, rejecting either one of them makes you a disbeliever.
    By saying this, you are violating the Quran's request not to divide Islam into sects. Rejecting hadith may be wrong, but it doesn't make a person a disbeliever because a quranist still believes in the core beliefs of Islam. When Muslims start calling each other disbelievers for reasons not supported in the Quran or hadith, then they are creating sects in violation of the Quran.

    Of course it [Old Testament] can be studied as a historical subject...it is not totally out of value of course...but it does not have the jurisprudence anymore like it used to have before the Quraan....and of course we are talking about the original Thorah here, in original language...which does not exist anymore...not the modern one you can buy in every book store.
    Most of this is fine (for Muslims). But of course the original language of the Torah is Hebrew and we do have the Torah in Hebrew, probably with some minor changes made over time.

  8. #6
    Abz2000's Avatar
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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    God know why some people are attempting to equate: other religions - the previously revealed divine scriptures - the Ahadith attributed to Muhammad - and the Quran - into one triple-A or junk stock bundle without attempting to understand them - a little like the six blind men who went to the zoo and then disputed over the form of an elephant.

    The Bible does contain the words of Allah and parts have also been edited and corrupted by some people. The Ahadith do contain the words of Allah's messenger and seal of the Prophets and some have been fabricated amd others misreported by people - The Quran is indeed the most stable and solid book of guidance from Allah and has less fingerprints of men than any other survinving scripture available to the people - regarding "other religions" - verily the only way acceptable to God is submission to His will and sincere obedience to Him according to the best and most truthful precepts whilst establishing true justice in Allah's sight to the best of our ability.


    Let us be careful of being dragged into arguments designed to push us into accepting all the fabrications added to the previously revealed scriptures as truth, and let us also beware of rejecting the obvious word of Allah in the previously revealed scriptures as being nothing but the word of man - or magic derived from of old - but rather let us accept truth as truth, and falshood as falsehood, and attempt to obey Allah to the best possible extent whilst repenting to Him.


    Surah 74. The Cloaked One, The Man Wearing A Cloak
    1. O thou wrapped up (in the mantle)!
    2. Arise and deliver thy warning!
    3. And thy Lord do thou magnify!
    4. And thy garments keep free from stain!
    5. And all abomination shun!
    6. Nor expect, in giving, any increase (for thyself)!
    7. But, for thy Lord's (Cause), be patient and constant!
    8. Finally, when the Trumpet is sounded,
    9. That will be- that Day - a Day of Distress,-
    10. Far from easy for those without Faith.
    11. Leave Me alone, (to deal) with the (creature) whom I created (bare and) alone!-
    12. To whom I granted resources in abundance,
    13. And sons to be by his side!-
    14. To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable!
    15. Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);-
    16. By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!
    17. Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities!
    18. For he thought and he plotted;-
    19. And woe to him! How he plotted!-
    20. Yea, Woe to him; How he plotted!-
    21. Then he looked round;
    22. Then he frowned and he scowled;
    23. Then he turned back and was haughty;
    24. Then said he: "This is nothing but magic, derived from of old;
    25. "This is nothing but the word of a mortal!"
    26. Soon will I cast him into Hell-Fire!
    27. And what will explain to thee what Hell-Fire is?
    28. Naught doth it permit to endure, and naught doth it leave alone!-
    29. Darkening and changing the colour of man!
    30. Over it are Nineteen.
    31. And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this ?" Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind.

    32. Nay, verily: By the Moon,
    33. And by the Night as it retreateth,
    34. And by the Dawn as it shineth forth,-
    35. This is but one of the mighty (portents),
    36. A warning to mankind,-
    37. To any of you that chooses to press forward, or to follow behind;-
    38. Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds.
    39. Except the Companions of the Right Hand.
    40. (They will be) in Gardens (of Delight): they will question each other,
    41. And (ask) of the Sinners:
    42. "What led you into Hell Fire?"
    43. They will say: "We were not of those who prayed;
    44. "Nor were we of those who fed the indigent;
    45. "But we used to talk vanities with vain talkers;
    46. "And we used to deny the Day of Judgment,
    47. "Until there came to us (the Hour) that is certain."
    48. Then will no intercession of (any) intercessors profit them.
    49. Then what is the matter with them that they turn away from admonition?-
    50. As if they were affrighted asses,
    51. Fleeing from a lion!
    52. Forsooth, each one of them wants to be given scrolls (of revelation) spread out!
    53. By no means! But they fear not the Hereafter,
    54. Nay, this surely is an admonition:
    55. Let any who will, keep it in remembrance!
    56. But none will keep it in remembrance except as Allah wills: He is the Lord of Righteousness, and the Lord of Forgiveness.




    I've found and added some newly discovered information here:

    Wahed Invesy UK
    Last edited by Abz2000; 2 Weeks Ago at 04:35 PM.
    Studying other religions/philosophy.













  9. #7
    Nuri's Avatar
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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ameerkam View Post
    Salaam.

    Is it permissible to study other religions or philosophy. Some scholars/speakers cite the bible or books like that to further explain the Quran. However, I’ve come across a Hadith where the Prophet became angry at a man because he was reading the Torah.
    Was this because of the time this happened? Like Islam was in its early foundations and no one should have been corrupted then? Would anyone say that this Hadith was specific to the time?
    Also, would it be impermissible for a Muslim who doesn’t have extensive knowledge in the Quran, sunnah, fiqh etc. be able to look at other religions, or philosophy?

    Jazzakallahu Khair.


    Provided you are not seeking divine guidance in those books, better to study Islam and it's various sciences firstly. Using the Quran as the guide and basis for further enlightenment. Only after reaching a scholarly level or deeply grounded level is it acceptable to study these books to now guide others. And it is from those learnt individuals who have written comparatively on these books, that's what you should probably get a hold of firstly.

    https://www.islamicity.org/8265/jama...eaching-serie/
    http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/

    It was narrated from Jaabir ibn ‘Abdullah (may Allah be pleased with him) that ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allah be pleased with him) came to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with some written material he had got from one of the people of the Book. He read it to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), and he got angry and said: “Are you confused (about your religion), O son of al-Khattaab? By the One in Whose hand is my soul, I have brought it (the message of Islam) to you clear and pure. Do not ask them about anything, lest they tell you something true and you disbelieve it, or they tell you something false and you believe it. By the One in Whose hand is my soul, if Moosa were alive, he would have no option but to follow me.”

    Narrated by Ahmad (14736); classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel, 6/34
    Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar (may Allah have mercy on him) said, after mentioning the isnaads of this hadith:
    These are all the isnads of this hadith; even though it does not reach such a standard that it may be relied upon as evidence, when they are all taken into consideration, this implies that there is a basis for this report.
    End quote from Fath al-Baari (13/525)
    Moreover, the truth that we have in the Holy Qur’an means that there is no need for whatever truth may be in the Torah and Gospel.
    Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):
    “Is it not sufficient for them that We have sent down to you the Book (the Quran) which is recited to them? Verily, herein is mercy and a reminder (or an admonition) for a people who believe”
    [al-‘Ankaboot 29:51].

    Based on the above, the scholars (may Allah have mercy on them) are of the view that those who study these books – the books of the Jews and Christians – may be divided into two groups:
    -1-
    The first group is ordinary people, those who have no knowledge and those who are weak in faith. They are not allowed to study these books so that they will not be confused by that which has been introduced into them of falsehood, and so that they will not be distracted by something that is of no benefit.
    Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
    With regard to this matter, it is important to note that in the case of those who are not well-versed in knowledge and are lacking in faith, it is not permissible for them to read any of those books.
    End quote from Fath al-Baari (13/525)
    With regard to this group – ordinary people and those who come under the same heading, or those who seek to benefit in spiritual terms from those books – these are the ones who the scholars stated should not be allowed to read the Torah and Gospel.
    It says in Mataalib Ooli an-Nuha (1/607):
    It is not permissible to study the books of the people of the Book, based on textual evidence, because the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) got angry when he saw ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) carrying a page of the Torah. … And they should not read books that contain both truth and falsehood, or narrate what they learn from them, because that may be detrimental to belief. End quote.


    https://islamqa.info/en/209007

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    umie's Avatar
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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
    I don't see how this conflicts with my point. Note that "their own Law" is "the decision of Allah" according to Quran 5:43.
    The point is, this verse does not say that the Thorah has its jurisprudence as it used to have in the past. this verse refers to an event where jews had to punish a fellow jew and they did not want to do that. according to their own law the penalty was stoning him to death...they wanted to avoid their own law because they did not like that...Islamic law was less worse, so they asked our prophet sas cunningly what his punishment would be in Islaam....and our Prophet replied that they should use their own law to judge this person.

    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post

    Yes Surah 5:68 supports my view that all have value. But is it saying that all people of scripture must keep the sabbath and keep ramadan? I don't think so. The principles of the 3 scriptures are the same, but details vary. So Surah 5:68 means to keep the principles of all 3 while 5:48 suggests a competition based on which scripture one chooses for the details.
    The Scriptures which comprise the Bible consist of two kinds of writings. One was composed by the Jewish and Christian authors themselves. The second consists of those portions which have been recorded as either the injunctions of God or as the utterances of Moses, Jesus and other Prophets. Such portions are those in which it has been categorically stated that God said so and so, or that a particular Prophet said so and so. If we were to exclude the portions belonging to the first category and carefully study those belonging to the second we would notice that their teachings are not perceptibly different from those of the Qur'an. It is true that the second category has not altogether escaped the tamperings of translators, scribes and exegetes, and the errors of oral transmitters. Nevertheless, one cannot help feeling that the teachings embodied in the second category call man to the same pure monotheism as the Qur'an, that they propound those very beliefs propounded by the Qur'an and that they direct man to the same way of life as that to which the Qur'an seeks to direct him. Hence, had the Jews and the Christians adhered to the teaching attributed in their Scriptures to God and the Prophets they would certainly have become a truth-loving and truth-oriented group of people and would have been able to see in the Qur'an that very light which illuminates the earlier divine Scriptures. There would then have been no question of their abandoning their religion in order to follow the Prophet (peace be on him). To follow him would have caused neither break nor discontinuity; they would simply have gone one stage further along the same road. So 5:68 says not to distuinguish between the prophets and books, but to believe in all of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post

    You took this out of context. I meant only use hadith to interpret the Quran.
    It is not my habit to take things out of context dear fscmidt. Apparently, I DID read your post wrong, and I am sorry for that. But now that I understand you correctly, I do not know whether I agree with you or not. I as a sunni, if I want to understand a verse, I always start looking it up in tafsirs. so do most of the sunnis. a broadly accepted among the Muslims tafsir Ibn Kathir. now, the correct question is...what source(s) did Ibn Kathir use for his research and his Tafsir? I highly doubt that it was only hadeeth...but this is a good question.

    This is a great exa,ple of why I like these kind of discussions with non-Muslims...they have a different point of view and make me to think about questions that never crossed my mind before. So my next mission is to find an answer on the question "what source did Ibn Kathir use for his Tafsir?"

    Thank you very much and I will get back on this...hopefully...

    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post

    There are plenty of silly rules based on hadiths. For example, the idea that there is something wrong with dog saliva is just silly with no logic or reason behind it. Please note that this isn't a criticism of Islam, but only a criticism of the sunni interpretation of Islam. I have a lot of confidence in the judgement of Muhammad and I am sure he had a good reason to be concerned about dogs at some time, like maybe there was a rabies epidemic. The problem isn't with Muhammad's actions, but rather with the lack of critical thinking that sunnis apply to Muhammad's actions.
    I do not know what is exactly wrong with dog saliva...never investigated it...but I am sure that if you look for this, you will find a logical reason behind it. If you like, we could look into this subject a little deeper too. I am confident we can find something.

    The thing is, Islaam does not have silly or unlogical rules...behind every rule, there is reason and logic. Hadeeth may contradict each other sometimes, because in the end, that is human work...and human narrations, testimony's etc....but usually at least the saheeh hadeeth also contain logic and reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post

    By saying this, you are violating the Quran's request not to divide Islam into sects. Rejecting hadith may be wrong, but it doesn't make a person a disbeliever because a quranist still believes in the core beliefs of Islam. When Muslims start calling each other disbelievers for reasons not supported in the Quran or hadith, then they are creating sects in violation of the Quran.
    the core believes of faith (Imaan) exist of these 6 points
    1. believing in the existence and oneness of Allah
    2. believing in His Angels
    3. believing in all His Prophets
    4. believing in all His Books
    5. Believing in His predestination
    6. Believing in Akhira...the afterlife

    These are also called the 6 articles of faith (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_(concept))

    Reject one of them and you will have a lack of faith. rejecting hadeeth is article nr 3.
    Only Allah knows of course who is truly a disbeliever and who is not, but with rejecting the hadeeth you sure are in the danger region.

    I agree with you that we are not in the position to call people disbelievers just like that
    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post

    Most of this is fine (for Muslims). But of course the original language of the Torah is Hebrew and we do have the Torah in Hebrew, probably with some minor changes made over time.
    no we do not...the original one was totally destroyed once and is restored back from the memory of one human being...no one knows how accurate this operation was or whether he missed or antered anything. so it has lost its trust.
    You can absolutely trust on the Quraan as the absolute and litteral word of God...The Thorah has lost this trust.

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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    The point is, this verse does not say that the Thorah has its jurisprudence as it used to have in the past.
    I never argued that the Torah has current jurisprudence. I only argued that it has value for study because it still contains valuable material like God's past judgements. And you seem to be agreeing with me here.

    The Scriptures which comprise the Bible consist of two kinds of writings. One was composed by the Jewish and Christian authors themselves. The second consists of those portions which have been recorded as either the injunctions of God or as the utterances of Moses, Jesus and other Prophets. Such portions are those in which it has been categorically stated that God said so and so, or that a particular Prophet said so and so. If we were to exclude the portions belonging to the first category and carefully study those belonging to the second we would notice that their teachings are not perceptibly different from those of the Qur'an. It is true that the second category has not altogether escaped the tamperings of translators, scribes and exegetes, and the errors of oral transmitters. Nevertheless, one cannot help feeling that the teachings embodied in the second category call man to the same pure monotheism as the Qur'an, that they propound those very beliefs propounded by the Qur'an and that they direct man to the same way of life as that to which the Qur'an seeks to direct him. Hence, had the Jews and the Christians adhered to the teaching attributed in their Scriptures to God and the Prophets they would certainly have become a truth-loving and truth-oriented group of people and would have been able to see in the Qur'an that very light which illuminates the earlier divine Scriptures. There would then have been no question of their abandoning their religion in order to follow the Prophet (peace be on him). To follow him would have caused neither break nor discontinuity; they would simply have gone one stage further along the same road. So 5:68 says not to distuinguish between the prophets and books, but to believe in all of them.
    I agree with most of this but you didn't really answer my question. Anyway, I cannot switch from the Old Testament to the Quran because I cannot accept Quran 2:2. I am a skeptic by nature, so I doubt everything. This doesn't conflict with the Old Testament but does conflict with the Quran.

    the core believes of faith (Imaan) exist of these 6 points
    1. believing in the existence and oneness of Allah
    2. believing in His Angels
    3. believing in all His Prophets
    4. believing in all His Books
    5. Believing in His predestination
    6. Believing in Akhira...the afterlife

    These are also called the 6 articles of faith (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_(concept))

    Reject one of them and you will have a lack of faith.
    Based on reading the Quran, I agree with this list except #5. Predestination is not explicitly discussed in the Quran and is only an interpretation based on reason. I assume that various Islamic groups must have rejected this idea in Islamic history. I certainly do. This is a good example of what not to make a requirement of Islam in order to avoid division into sects.

    no we do not...the original one [Torah] was totally destroyed once and is restored back from the memory of one human being...
    Where does this idea come from? I haven't heard it before.

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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    I would say it is permissible. Because it is encouraged to learn about other religions so you understand where your relgion stands and where other stands. By studying others and yours, you come to realize how some of them have been corrupted and have errors and you are able to point this out to others and perhaps be able to bring more people to islam. I would say it is a good idea. But do not only study others. Study yours also. It is encourage to look and be sure you want to follow islam. THis is encouraged so you can realize islam is the true relgion and the others has strayed.

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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
    I never argued that the Torah has current jurisprudence. I only argued that it has value for study because it still contains valuable material like God's past judgements. And you seem to be agreeing with me here.
    Yes I totally agree with you that the Thorah still contains valuable material...like you said, it may be helpful to see the history of Gods laws and principals. It can provide us an insight in some subjects from a different angle.
    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
    I agree with most of this but you didn't really answer my question. Anyway, I cannot switch from the Old Testament to the Quran because I cannot accept Quran 2:2. I am a skeptic by nature, so I doubt everything. This doesn't conflict with the Old Testament but does conflict with the Quran.
    Quraan 2:2 is: "This is the Book of Allah, there is no doubt in it, it is a guidance for the pious"
    So you are saying that you cannot accept that the Quraan is a guidance for people who are consious of Allah.
    You are consious of God...you know that God exist...so...somewhere you doubt that the Quraan is divine...is that what you are saying? and what exactly does not conflict with the OT but does conflict with the Quraan? I did not understand that part...please elaborate.
    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post

    Based on reading the Quran, I agree with this list except #5. Predestination is not explicitly discussed in the Quran and is only an interpretation based on reason. I assume that various Islamic groups must have rejected this idea in Islamic history. I certainly do. This is a good example of what not to make a requirement of Islam in order to avoid division into sects.
    Rejecting this conflicts with believing that Allah is almighty and allknowing. If we truely believe that Allah has knowledge of everything in the past, present and the future...then we cannot avoid to say that Allah knows which decisions and actions we are going to make, and therefore, He knows our final destination already...
    Everyone who denies predestination does not believe that God is allmighty, and therefore his God is not worth worshipping.

    Besides, Quraan 85:22 speaks about "al-Lauh al-Mahfuz" which is the book of decrees written prior to creation. it includes the destiny of all creatures...nothing can be added to it or removed from it.
    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post

    Where does this idea come from? I haven't heard it before.
    never mind, I looked this up. and this person turns out to be Ezra (Uzair)....but the story is full with doubts and cannot be trusted...so I want to withdraw this claim...sorry for that.
    1 | Likes Zafran liked this post

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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    Quraan 2:2 is: "This is the Book of Allah, there is no doubt in it, it is a guidance for the pious"
    So you are saying that you cannot accept that the Quraan is a guidance for people who are consious of Allah.
    You are consious of God...you know that God exist...so...somewhere you doubt that the Quraan is divine...is that what you are saying? and what exactly does not conflict with the OT but does conflict with the Quraan? I did not understand that part...please elaborate.
    Yes I doubt almost everything. That just means that I am not 100% sure. For me religion is like science. I believe in scientific theories but I am open to the possibility that a scientific may be wrong based on new evidence. I treat religion exactly the same way. I believe in God because I find this belief to be the most probable explanation of what I know, but I am always open to changing my mind based on new evidence. This way of thinking is compatible with the Old Testament but not with the Quran.

    Rejecting this conflicts with believing that Allah is almighty and allknowing. If we truely believe that Allah has knowledge of everything in the past, present and the future...then we cannot avoid to say that Allah knows which decisions and actions we are going to make, and therefore, He knows our final destination already...
    Everyone who denies predestination does not believe that God is allmighty, and therefore his God is not worth worshipping.
    This is an example of why applying philosophical reasoning to God is dangerous. The Muʿtazila got into trouble for this reason. Your reasoning assumes that God's relationship with time is the same as ours, that God exists within the time dimension. But there is no reason to assume this. Things that change must exist within the time dimension, but since God doesn't change, God does not need to be restricted in the time dimension. Predestination means that the future is already determined in the present. But if God is independent of time, then predestination does not need to be true. And logically predestination conflicts with free will. So I reject predestination.

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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
    This is an example of why applying philosophical reasoning to God is dangerous. The Muʿtazila got into trouble for this reason. Your reasoning assumes that God's relationship with time is the same as ours, that God exists within the time dimension. But there is no reason to assume this. Things that change must exist within the time dimension, but since God doesn't change, God does not need to be restricted in the time dimension. Predestination means that the future is already determined in the present. But if God is independent of time, then predestination does not need to be true. And logically predestination conflicts with free will. So I reject predestination.
    God is outside time so For God Time is just another creation - it is only humans that are in time - that is way we have a concept of past present and Future as we are going through time. There are many answers to free will one of them is by the Asharis which is based on Kasb or acquisition but IMO the maturidi (Not Mutazalite) explanation is better.

    You have Possibilities and God knows the possibilities that your going to do but your free will is the possibilities that you can choose from inside time. God is all knowing and all powerful (al qadr) so you can never make a decision that is out of his control or Knowledge - so God allows Humans to make choices of different possibilities of doing Good or doing bad but they are always with God's Creative power. Your life and the possibility you choose are going to play a part of the last day and where you end up.

    There is a long discussion in the Kalam literature about this Scholars Like Juywani, Razi, Ghazzali the Mutazalite and the maturidis.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
    Yes I doubt almost everything. That just means that I am not 100% sure. For me religion is like science. I believe in scientific theories but I am open to the possibility that a scientific may be wrong based on new evidence. I treat religion exactly the same way. I believe in God because I find this belief to be the most probable explanation of what I know, but I am always open to changing my mind based on new evidence. This way of thinking is compatible with the Old Testament but not with the Quran.
    Revelation is not like science - science is an Inductive method which is probable - Revelation is about the Necessary, absolute, perfect and Independent Creator that keeps the contingent Universe into existence - the natural world is Just Giant sign for his knowledge, power, wisdom and mercy.
    Last edited by Zafran; 2 Weeks Ago at 12:34 AM.
    Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Greetings and peace be with you fschmidt;

    I believe in God because I find this belief to be the most probable explanation of what I know, but I am always open to changing my mind based on new evidence.
    God the creator of the universe and life either exists fully and totally, or there is no god. There can never be a probable god, it's yes or no. You need faith and trust to accept God, science will never be able to prove God's existence totally.

    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
    but I am always open to changing my mind based on new evidence. This way of thinking is compatible with the Old Testament but not with the Quran.
    When the Israelites ignored God and changed their minds about him, they suffered the consequences.

    In the spirit of trusting in 'One God'

    Eric
    2 | Likes umie, Zafran liked this post
    Studying other religions/philosophy.

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    God the creator of the universe and life either exists fully and totally, or there is no god. There can never be a probable god, it's yes or no. You need faith and trust to accept God, science will never be able to prove God's existence totally
    In this respect Christianity and Islam are the same. Both are faith-based religions. In your quote, you don't present an argument, you just state an assumption of your religion. Because Christianity and Islam share this assumption, it is common for people to change from one of these religions to the other. I was raised atheist and my fundamental assumptions didn't change when I switched to believing in the Old Testament. My fundamental assumption is that inductive reasoning is the primary source of belief and that all beliefs are tentative.

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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
    In this respect Christianity and Islam are the same. Both are faith-based religions. In your quote, you don't present an argument, you just state an assumption of your religion. Because Christianity and Islam share this assumption, it is common for people to change from one of these religions to the other. I was raised atheist and my fundamental assumptions didn't change when I switched to believing in the Old Testament. My fundamental assumption is that inductive reasoning is the primary source of belief and that all beliefs are tentative.
    Islam and Christianity are based on deductive reasoning (Just like math, other minds, causality and any a priori reasoning). For there to be any inductive method there has to be something that allows for induction. Induction is probable - for a probable thing to exist in the first place it needs something that made it possible - a necessary. I'm sure your fundamental assumptions and beliefs did change from atheism to OT - for starters you dont believe that mere chance made us or that there is no meaning and purpose in life Onto-logically.
    1 | Likes Eric H liked this post
    Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
    In this respect Christianity and Islam are the same. Both are faith-based religions. In your quote, you don't present an argument, you just state an assumption of your religion. Because Christianity and Islam share this assumption, it is common for people to change from one of these religions to the other. I was raised atheist and my fundamental assumptions didn't change when I switched to believing in the Old Testament. My fundamental assumption is that inductive reasoning is the primary source of belief and that all beliefs are tentative.
    Aren't all religions faith-based? Because like Eric said, there will never be cold hard proof for the existence of God...because if there was, we did not have to believe anymore and this whole coming to Earth for a test would have no use.
    So, you have to have faith to find God because science won't help you here for sure.

    What science CAN do is investigate and test that what is given to us (in the form of what the prophets has teached us and revelations, such as Holy books) whether it is plausible, feasibility, contradictions, etc.

    Your inductive reasoning should lead you to God long time ago...because how all these creations came into existence and how everything interact with each other perfectly...the complexity but also the harmony are all factors that cannot exist on their own (already discussed in various threads)...So, this discussion shouldn't be about whether God exists or not. It should be about which religion is the correct one...and for this, you can use your science.

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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Greetings and peace be with you fschmidt;


    Originally Posted by Eric H


    God the creator of the universe and life either exists fully and totally, or there is no god.

    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
    In your quote, you don't present an argument, you just state an assumption of your religion.
    I am not presenting an argument, rather, I am searching for truth. The creation of the universe is history, and you cannot change history. Whatever you or I think is kind of irrelevant, we cannot alter the past just because we believe something else to be true.

    In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

    Eric
    Studying other religions/philosophy.

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    I am posting to this thread for mutual understanding (in the spirit of the subject of this thread), not to debate. I don't expect Muslims to agree with my viewpoint, but it would be useful to understand it, just as it is useful for me to understand the Muslim viewpoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    God is outside time so For God Time is just another creation - it is only humans that are in time - that is way we have a concept of past present and Future as we are going through time. There are many answers to free will one of them is by the Asharis which is based on Kasb or acquisition but IMO the maturidi (Not Mutazalite) explanation is better.

    You have Possibilities and God knows the possibilities that your going to do but your free will is the possibilities that you can choose from inside time. God is all knowing and all powerful (al qadr) so you can never make a decision that is out of his control or Knowledge - so God allows Humans to make choices of different possibilities of doing Good or doing bad but they are always with God's Creative power. Your life and the possibility you choose are going to play a part of the last day and where you end up.
    All of this is fine, and this doesn't require belief in predestination for the reasons I explained.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    Revelation is not like science - science is an Inductive method which is probable - Revelation is about the Necessary, absolute, perfect and Independent Creator that keeps the contingent Universe into existence - the natural world is Just Giant sign for his knowledge, power, wisdom and mercy.
    Revelation is simply text (at this time). How this text is interpreted depends on the reader. The Torah is a (possibly corrupted) revelation that is careful not to define God or list God's attributes, and I am sympathetic to this approach. As I said, the Quran isn't really compatible with using the inductive method for religion, but the Old Testament is compatible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    Islam and Christianity are based on deductive reasoning (Just like math, other minds, causality and any a priori reasoning).
    Not exactly. Islam and Christianity require the acceptance of certain axioms based on faith, but how one reasons from those axioms is left open. One can still use inductive reasoning in these religions as long as this doesn't conflict with scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    For there to be any inductive method there has to be something that allows for induction. Induction is probable - for a probable thing to exist in the first place it needs something that made it possible - a necessary. I'm sure your fundamental assumptions and beliefs did change from atheism to OT
    We share the belief in God as universal cause, but our reasons for holding this belief differ. In your case it is axiomatic based on faith. In my case it is simply the best available way of understanding the world. I believe in evolution for the same reason that I believe in God, because it is the best explanation that I have found for the facts. So accepting beliefs like evolution or God doesn't require me to change assumptions, it is only a change in beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    for starters you dont believe that mere chance made us or that there is no meaning and purpose in life Onto-logically.
    When I was atheist and I studied evolution, I concluded that the meaning and purpose or life was for the phenotype to serve the interest of the genotype, and my change to the Old Testament hasn't changed this view at all. What has changed is that now I understand that God has explained exactly how to best do this in scripture.

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    Re: Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
    All of this is fine, and this doesn't require belief in predestination for the reasons I explained.
    You cant believe in an all knowing God and powerful God without Not believing in predestination or in simpler terms that God is still ultimately in Control even with the possibilities we have.




    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
    Revelation is simply text (at this time). How this text is interpreted depends on the reader. The Torah is a (possibly corrupted) revelation that is careful not to define God or list God's attributes, and I am sympathetic to this approach. As I said, the Quran isn't really compatible with using the inductive method for religion, but the Old Testament is compatible.
    The Quran is compatible with Induction as it has been with reasoning by analogy (Qiyas) - Its also complemented with Hadith which is an inductive and empirical method in its own right. There are other deduction that one takes in interpreting the Quran such as the Grammar of the text and the context. Deduction is a much stronger reasoning then induction simply because induction comes with its own sorts of problems the famous being the problem of Induction and causality (see david Hume on this).




    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
    Not exactly. Islam and Christianity require the acceptance of certain axioms based on faith, but how one reasons from those axioms is left open. One can still use inductive reasoning in these religions as long as this doesn't conflict with scripture.
    All axioms are dogmatic be they mathematics, Other minds, Principle of sufficient reason etc. Any a priori reasoning is dogmatic - the point is if the axiom is reasonable or not. Islam and Christianity especially when it comes to theism definitely sees God as a rational option rather then the others out there. fideism or Kierkegaards leap of faith is not the only way people see religion. There are rational and deductive arguments for theism and Justifying Islam or Christianity.


    Quote Originally Posted by fschmidt View Post
    We share the belief in God as universal cause, but our reasons for holding this belief differ. In your case it is axiomatic based on faith. In my case it is simply the best available way of understanding the world. I believe in evolution for the same reason that I believe in God, because it is the best explanation that I have found for the facts. So accepting beliefs like evolution or God doesn't require me to change assumptions, it is only a change in beliefs.
    Belief in God specifically Islam or prophetic Guidance is rational belief that easily follows from deductive arguments. The Quran Just supports this already rational and Intuitive stance. That tells you to look outside the world for God's signs and reflect - which leads on to Induction and analogy and abductive reasons. They all have there place but deduction is where its starts as its stronger then all other forms of reasoning.
    Last edited by Zafran; 1 Week Ago at 11:53 PM.
    Studying other religions/philosophy.

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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