Freedom of Speech

Greetings and peace be with you brother Raymann, and yes, we are all brothers and sisters together; we are all created by 'One God'.

Brother Eric H, please move on, the war is over, the weapons were found in 2014, so it's all good.

No it is not all good, we destroyed a country because they had WMDs that they did not use. It would be like destroying America because they have WMDs, and we know they have been used.

The Iraqis seemed very happy right after the invasion.

I try and wonder what an ordinary bloke like me would have gone through living in Iraq, just someone who goes to work, brings up children and grandchildren and with all the other stuff families do. I can't imagine what it must be like to live in a town where missiles are hammering down, where soldiers and tanks are causing mayhem to everyday life; year after year.

When you say the ordinary Iraqi seemed happy, I just cannot see that, the only time I would start to feel happy again is when all the foreign troops have gone and life was at least as good as it was before. But we know that has not happened, the American allies have been responsible for making it worse. If Bush and Blair truthfully followed Christian teaching, the greatest thing they could do was to love all their neighbours as they love themselves, they should also love and pray for their enemies. Once you ignore the greatest commandments, then you cannot call it a religious war.

The brave americans and the allies helped the Iraqis rebuild the country while risking their lives to keep the country safe.

This kind of thinking terrifies me, because it seems a common thought amongst Americans. Do you truthfully believe America was helping Iraq, all I can see is carnage, and we have to take responsibility for that. Had we not invaded, then things would be different.

It also happened in Egypt, Libya, Lebanon, Iran, Syria, Sudan, Yemen, Somalia, Nigeria, Chad, Ethiopia and of course Afghanistan.
Should I feel guilty? not for a second.

Look at the mess America has left Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq and others. America and Britain do not have the given right to invade other countries in the name of justice, they get it wrong. We have destroyed the lives of millions of ordinary people in this world. Only God can bring about true justice, our attempts only fail.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt

I gave my impression. You also called the book "brilliant book" without a shred of evidence. How is that any different?

Here are the reviews on Amazon for this book:

Dale Gribble (rated this book 5 stars)

The book covers the affirmative evidence in the Shari'ah and demonstrates that indeed Islam does allow freedom of speech. While reading, I found western legal theory borrowing a lot from Islamic Law and the Islamic legal system in may ways. This book will expand your understanding of what Shari'ah is and isn't, even though its not written for that. Mohammad Hashim Kamali, being a legal scholar, explores Islamic rights such as Freedom to Express Opinion, Freedom of Association (political parties, etc) Freedom of personal reason, freedom of scientific inquiry, Freedom to Criticise (people or government for the purpose of the betterment of society at large), freedom of consulation and more. It is a great book that lays waste to the myth of Shari'ah. It gives it its respect that it deserves from an academic and legal perspective, rather than a cartoon version of Shariah in which we imagine angry bearded men and oppressed shrowded, beaten and battered women.

The book later goes into the limits of freedom of speech. I have not gotten this far yet, but I am roughly halfway through and I am honestly loving this book.

Buy this book and read it.

DocTX (rated this books 5 stars)

Wonderful insight on an important subject

Armando Malwani (rated this book 5 stars)

Excellent treatment of the concept of freedom of expression in Islam. Those who question islams commitment to this most important aspect of the human condition should definitely read this.

All three reviews are from verified purchases on Amazon.

I support these statements. I've yet to find a verified purchase customer on Amazon (or anywhere else) with a negative review for this book. Your blanket statement doesn't hold.

Link to sourced reviews: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Freedom-Expression-Fundamental-Rights-Liberties/dp/0946621608

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

So the same with free speech...you can advocate to steal...but if someone actually steals because of your words, then this will also have consequences for you...in this world or in the next.

It is that simple. really not that complicated.

Edit: what you want is to say or do something bad freely...but you do not want to face the consequences...does not work like that.

You completely miss the point.

I would really like to know, is there one other person here besides me who understands the concept of free speech?

- - - Updated - - -

format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk

I've yet to find a verified purchase customer on Amazon (or anywhere else) with a negative review for this book.

You convinced me. I will write a negative review on Amazon as a verified purchase customer.

format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

You're getting deeper in the hole.

No, you're just further proving how stupid you are and how little you know about Islam.

We do what he does because God literally tells us to, that's it. It's not subjective at all, the highest authority that exists has literally ordained us to do so because Rasulullah (Peace Be Upon Him) is the epitome of Islamic morals, which (spoiler alert) come from God.

format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt

You convinced me. This shabbat I will write a negative review on Amazon as a verified purchase customer.

... too late, it's already after the fact!

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Khorasani

We do what he does because God literally tells us to, that's it. It's not subjective at all, the highest authority that exists has literally ordained us to do so because Rasulullah (Peace Be Upon Him) is the epitome of Islamic morals, which (spoiler alert) come from God.

We are only to do what is just in Allah 's sight,.
When Allah's messenger took off his sandals during the prayer and the companions later followed suit, he completed the prayer and asked them their intention for removing theirs and then explained to them that he had removed his due to the impurity under his sandals - thereby indicating that they were not to just copy him blindly but with proper intention to obey Allah who is their ultimate judge.

We do not angrily turn away from blind men simply because he did it -since we know it was a fault in Allah's sight.

The messenger's duty is to convey the message and he is responsible for his actions just as every other individual is responsible for their own.

If any refuse to follow the messenger out of rebellion to Allah The Most Truthful, Wise, and Just, the rebel will have commited a fault for which he/she is liable.

If any copies the messenger in a fault in Allah's sight - the person is again liable.




(240)Chapter: Praying In Sandals(91) باب الصَّلاَةِ فِي النَّعْلِ

Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri:
While the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was leading his Companions in prayer, he took off his sandals and laid them on his left side; so when the people saw this, they removed their sandals. When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) finished his prayer, he asked: What made you remove your sandals? The replied: We saw you remove your sandals, so we removed our sandals.
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) then said: Gabriel came to me and informed me that there was filth in them. When any of you comes to the mosque, he should see; if he finds filth on his sandals, he should wipe it off and pray in them.

حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ، عَنْ أَبِي نَعَامَةَ السَّعْدِيِّ، عَنْ أَبِي نَضْرَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ، قَالَ بَيْنَمَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يُصَلِّي بِأَصْحَابِهِ إِذْ خَلَعَ نَعْلَيْهِ فَوَضَعَهُمَا عَنْ يَسَارِهِ فَلَمَّا رَأَى ذَلِكَ الْقَوْمُ أَلْقَوْا نِعَالَهُمْ فَلَمَّا قَضَى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم صَلاَتَهُ قَالَ ‏"‏ مَا حَمَلَكُمْ عَلَى إِلْقَائِكُمْ نِعَالَكُمْ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالُوا رَأَيْنَاكَ أَلْقَيْتَ نَعْلَيْكَ فَأَلْقَيْنَا نِعَالَنَا ‏.‏ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ إِنَّ جِبْرِيلَ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَتَانِي فَأَخْبَرَنِي أَنَّ فِيهِمَا قَذَرًا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَقَالَ ‏"‏ إِذَا جَاءَ أَحَدُكُمْ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ فَلْيَنْظُرْ فَإِنْ رَأَى فِي نَعْلَيْهِ قَذَرًا أَوْ أَذًى فَلْيَمْسَحْهُ وَلْيُصَلِّ فِيهِمَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏

Grade : Sahih (Al-Albani) صحيح (الألباني) حكم :
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 650
In-book reference : Book 2, Hadith 260
English translation : Book 2, Hadith 650
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عَبَسَ وَتَوَلَّىٰٓ

He frowned and turned away,


أَن جَآءَهُ ٱلْأَعْمَىٰ

Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).


وَمَا يُدْرِيكَ لَعَلَّهُۥ يَزَّكَّىٰٓ

But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in purity)?-


أَوْ يَذَّكَّرُ فَتَنفَعَهُ ٱلذِّكْرَىٰٓ

Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?


أَمَّا مَنِ ٱسْتَغْنَىٰ

As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,


فَأَنتَ لَهُۥ تَصَدَّىٰ

To him dost thou attend;


وَمَا عَلَيْكَ أَلَّا يَزَّكَّىٰ

Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in purity).


وَأَمَّا مَن جَآءَكَ يَسْعَىٰ

But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,


وَهُوَ يَخْشَىٰ

And with fear (in his heart),


فَأَنتَ عَنْهُ تَلَهَّىٰ

Of him wast thou unmindful.


كَلَّآ إِنَّهَا تَذْكِرَةٌ

By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a Message of instruction:


فَمَن شَآءَ ذَكَرَهُۥ

Therefore let whoso will, keep it in remembrance.


From Quran, Chapter 80, 'Abssa, Verses 1-12





Home » Jami` at-Tirmidhi » Chapters on Tafsir - كتاب تفسير القرآن عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم » Hadith

Narrated 'Aishah:
"When this Ayah was revealed: 'And warn your tribe of near kindred (26:214).' The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: 'O Safiyyah bint 'Abdul-Muttalib! O Fatimah bint Muhammad! O Banu 'Abdul-Muttalib! I have no power to help you at all before Allah! Ask of me whatever you want from my wealth.'"

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الأَشْعَثِ، أَحْمَدُ بْنُ الْمِقْدَامِ الْعِجْلِيُّ حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ الطُّفَاوِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامُ بْنُ عُرْوَةَ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، قَالَتْ لَمَّا نَزَلَتْ هَذِهِ الآيَةُ ‏:‏ ‏(‏وأَنْذِرْ عَشِيرَتَكَ الأَقْرَبِينَ ‏)‏ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ يَا صَفِيَّةُ بِنْتَ عَبْدِ الْمُطَّلِبِ يَا فَاطِمَةُ بِنْتَ مُحَمَّدٍ يَا بَنِي عَبْدِ الْمُطَّلِبِ إِنِّي لاَ أَمْلِكُ لَكُمْ مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئًا سَلُونِي مِنْ مَالِي مَا شِئْتُمْ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ وَهَكَذَا رَوَى وَكِيعٌ وَغَيْرُ وَاحِدٍ هَذَا الْحَدِيثَ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ عُرْوَةَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ عَائِشَةَ نَحْوَ حَدِيثِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ الطُّفَاوِيِّ ‏.‏ رَوَى بَعْضُهُمْ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ عُرْوَةَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم مُرْسَلاً وَلَمْ يَذْكُرْ فِيهِ عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ‏.‏ وَفِي الْبَابِ عَنْ عَلِيٍّ وَابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ‏.‏

Grade : Sahih (Darussalam)
English reference : Vol. 5, Book 44, Hadith 3184
Arabic reference : Book 47, Hadith 3486





مَا كَانَ لِبَشَرٍ أَن يُؤْتِيَهُ ٱللَّهُ ٱلْكِتَٰبَ وَٱلْحُكْمَ وَٱلنُّبُوَّةَ ثُمَّ يَقُولَ لِلنَّاسِ كُونُوا۟ عِبَادًا لِّى مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ وَلَٰكِن كُونُوا۟ رَبَّٰنِيِّۦنَ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تُعَلِّمُونَ ٱلْكِتَٰبَ وَبِمَا كُنتُمْ تَدْرُسُونَ

It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic office, should say to people: "Be ye my worshippers rather than Allah's": on the contrary (He would say) "Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all: For ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly."


From Quran, Chapter 3, Aal-e-Imran, Verse 79




مَنْ عَمِلَ صَٰلِحًا فَلِنَفْسِهِۦۖ وَمَنْ أَسَآءَ فَعَلَيْهَاۖ ثُمَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكُمْ تُرْجَعُونَ

If any one does a righteous deed, it ensures to the benefit of his own soul; if he does evil, it works against (his own soul). In the end will ye (all) be brought back to your Lord.


From Quran, Chapter 45 , Al-Jasiyah, Verse 15

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

Wait...this is off topic but now I'm confused...does this hadeeth mean that we can pray with our shoes on if they are clean?

Yup, but again, take into account the mosque policy - since some are carpeted or masonry finished and cleaned to the extent that shoes would cause a problem.

Maybe as far as raymann is concerned, his mom and dad got together and had a lawless big bang and he was born, nothing existed before that -and that's because he'd have to think about the long chain of events before that which are unprovable according to him since they can't be physically demonstrated - fits well with orwellian doctrine. Big brother invented helicopters.

Maybe he's also a believer in the flat earth because he can't trust anyone else's word and when he looks around he sees mostly flat earth with a few mountains and hills.

Maybe also believes he doesn't have a brain in his head because he can't see it himself.

@Raymann - that was just me practicing your brand of free speech - none of it was really what i believed to be the truth.

I actually believe that we should use intellect and history to evaluate what we hear and see - and i believe that you feel the truth within.
Please think.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Khorasani

Originally Posted by Raymann
The fact that God tells you to follow the SUBJECTIVE MORALS of the prophet (pbuh) doesn't make his MORALS OBJECTIVE.

Yes it does, because an objective authority says that these morals are correct

You mean an objective authority that only exists according to your SUBJECTIVE thinking, interesting.
I admire your blind FAITH, but that's what faith is, the unproven belief of something.
I have no problem and don't intend to question your faith and belief but pretending that now you can somehow use logic and some primitive scientific thinking to make sense of the metaphysical world borders the ridiculous.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Khorasani

Originally Posted by Raymann
you cannot prove OBJECTIVELY that God exists

Yes we can, we've already done this numerous times before on the forum, but people like you stick your heads in the sand and don't listen because you don't want Islam to be true.

Can you please point me to that objective explanation. I'd love to read about it. I reject nonsense but not before I verify is nonsense.

format_quote Originally Posted by keiv

I can't believe you guys fell for this. Based on the lack of context in the OP, it was pretty clear what Raymann's intentions were. 6 pages and counting.

You might have missed it but I CLEARLY said it on my introduction:
I'm a westerner who keeps hearing bad and awful things about Islam.
I'm here to hear an explanation from a Muslim perspective.
I'm not here to impose my belief nor to adopt yours.
I'm an Atheist so you already know I don't believe in God (that includes Allah).
I am not going to lie to you, I don't need your approval.
What you hear from me is probably what you could hear from most westerners.
You've been warn what to expect in my threads so is up to you if you keep nosing in.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

so please tell us the reason why you want that intolerable ideas should be free to be advocated:

I should write a formal article about free speech. But I will give a brief answer here.

Who enforces censorship? Obviously those in power. And what kind of people tend to be in power? Not very nice people. In fact corrupt people who will use censorship to hide their corrupt actions. This is simply the practical reality. The solution is to make free speech a clear right in the constitution as America did. This requires that all opinions can be expressed. Anything less is open to abuse by those in power.

But let's engage in the fantasy of good government. Should an imaginary good government practice censorship? Again my answer is no. The reasoning given for censorship is to stop the spread of bad ideas. But history shows that this doesn't work and in fact has the opposite effect. When stupid ideas are freely expressed in a morally sound culture, these ideas are just considered stupid. But when these ideas are suppressed, conspiracy theories develop and people take these stupid ideas more seriously. For me the obvious example is Holocaust denial. Holocaust denial is stupid but was freely allowed in America where it was never taken seriously. In countries where this is outlawed, it is taken more seriously. I remember when America was still a sane country in the 1980s. Nazis were freely allowed to speak publicly and were given protection. And they just made fools of themselves and no one took them seriously. Free speech allows bad ideas to be exposed and countered. When Hitler was rising to power in Germany, the German government actively attacked him which just gave him more sympathy among the people. So in the end, censorship doesn't work.

And finally I would point to the two people most qualified in history to practice censorship. These are Moses and Muhammad, both in positions of power and both with a good ability to distinguish right and wrong. Yet neither one ever practiced censorship. This should be a clear indication that censorship is not a good idea. I don't understand how Muslims who claim to follow the Sunnah of Muhammad can support censorship when Muhammad never practiced it.

@fschmidt @Raymann
You jewish atheists need to do a bit of research before making statements about the Prophet , or maybe you already know and are simply seeking to lead Muslims into going into it at length.The Prophet did sometimes have speech checked properly in Allah 's sight to ensure that true justice was upheld. Ka'b ibn Ashraf and Abu Rafi' ibn Abi Al-Huqaiq were from amongst a few notable examples.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000

You jewish atheists need to do a bit of research before making statements about the Prophet , or maybe you already know and are simply seeking to lead Muslims into going into it at length.The Prophet did sometimes have speech checked properly in Allah 's sight to ensure that true justice was upheld. Ka'b ibn Ashraf and Abu Rafi' ibn Abi Al-Huqaiq were from amongst a few notable examples.

My race is irrelevant and I am not atheist.

I looked up Ka'b ibn Ashraf and he was guilty of slander and treachery. Abu Rafi' ibn Abi Al-Huqaiq was a traitor. So these are very poor examples. I made clear what free speech means here:

Freedom of Speech

Greetings and peace be with you Raymann;

format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

Originally Posted by Raymann
you cannot prove OBJECTIVELY that God exists

format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

Can you please point me to that objective explanation. I'd love to read about it. I reject nonsense but not before I verify is nonsense.

In the same way; I doubt you can prove objectively how the universe and life came into being without a God, if you can, I would love to hear it. I am also fairly confident that any explanation you could give would be lacking in detail and it would not be verifiable.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God the creator',

Eric

Eric