Freedom of Speech

I wish Atheists knew what Freedom of Speech really is
but I know there's no hope.

format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

I wish I could answer to that but my Freedom of Speech is a bit limited right now.



I guess "tired misconceptions" are not included into the concept of Freedom of Speech"

I'm doing some reading at the moment to figure it out.

http://www.islamicity.org/8653/freed...c-perspective/

I closed your thread as it was rubbish nuff said. People have tried to explain to you the Islamic stance on things but you only seem to respond when it's something you can use to further your bias

This is an Islamic forum and you are expected to respect Islam and Muslims while you are here. Don't like that leave, I'm sure you can find a subforum on reddit to moan about that mozlem eesa the kiwi violating your freedom of speech

Threads are closed very easily in this forum. An non muslim must have right to criticise Islam without insult if this is a discussion forum. No one can reach the truth without questioning.

I will try to add substance to this thread. I believe that all groups in the world today hate free speech (unfortunately) but that there is hope for Islam but not for the secular West.

First I should define free speech. Free speech means being free to express ideas. Baseless insults are not ideas and are not protected, but are called defamation when used against a person or blasphemy when used against a religion. America had very strong free speech protection but it also had laws again defamation and blasphemy for most of its history.

Islam is at least honest about rejecting free speech. Unlike the West, Islam is usually honest. The reason that I believe that there is hope is that today's Islam is rejecting free speech in clear violation of the Quran and the Sunnah, so if Islam ever fixes itself and returns to the Quran and the Sunnah, then it will end censorship and support free speech. To explain what I mean, I challenge any Muslim here to find anything in the Quran supporting censorship or any example of Muhammad practicing censorship in a hadith. I don't think you will find anything. And if this is true, then today's Islamic position against free speech is based on human desire, specifically natural human intolerance, and not on true Islam.

The secular West is intolerant and completely dishonest about this, pretending to be tolerant. On the social level, one can easily see this in forums. I used to be atheist myself and I was banned from all atheist forums even before the Old Testament changed my mind. I was banned simply for saying that I found some good ideas in the Old Testament. Atheists are incredibly intolerant. At the legal level, America still has free speech thanks to the Christian founders putting free speech protection in the constitution. But no other Western country has free speech and all punish "hate" speech. In particular, holocaust denial is illegal in all these countries, and this is a clear violation of free speech. The West was tolerant and had free speech when it was Christian. As it lost its religion, it lost its respect for human rights. There is no hope for the West because it has become secular, so it has no foundation to support human rights.

format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

No, I don't think so. Any quotes ?



I have no bias, clear head, no false beliefs, just the truth and respect for all religions and cultures.
Any quotes ? I don't think so.

Rape culture

So your behaviour in this thread was unbiased when Muslims tried to explain to you that Islam doesn't tolerate a rape culture

Rape culture Brief introduction, purpose for signing on this forum and question. Introduction: I'm a westerner living in New York City who considers himself a mix o...

format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

Secular = gobernment separated from religion.

No. Secular X = X separated from religion. Secular government is fine. Secular culture is not.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/secular

There is only one religion in the world that has a system of laws embeded into the religion part (Islam)
Christianity and Judaism are strictly religions with no political nor judicial systems attached to them.

No. Judaism has a clear legal system that is implemented internally. Modern Islam is making a mistake in focusing on politics instead of focusing on internal rules as Judaism does. But this has nothing to do with the true religion. At the core, Judaism and Islam are the same. Judaism has the Torah which has ethical principles that were implemented as law by Moses, and Islam has the Quran which has ethical principles that were implemented as law by Muhammad.

See, I know what the West understands for freedom of speech and I'm very confused about what the Islamic culture take is.
If I say, Communism and Islamic political systems have failed over and over thru history.
Ts that insulting towards Islam ?
Can Islam (as a political system) be criticized based purely on historical facts ?

Today's Islamic culture is a mess, but true Islam (Quran and Sunnah) is sound. You should be able criticize anything.

I can prove you in two seconds that you're wrong [about atheists being intolerant].
I'm here trying to understand the Islamic way of thinking and not to impose my own.
Is that intolerant according to you ?

That is only because you don't have the power to impose your thinking here. It seems that all modern atheists would impose their views on the world if they had the power to do so.

format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

There is only one religion in the world that has a system of laws embeded into the religion part (Islam)

This not true at all nearly every Religion has political commitments embedded within it, thats not going to change unless the population becomes less religious.

format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

Christianity and Judaism are strictly religions with no political nor judicial systems attached to them.

These are great religions that have Judicial and Political commitments attached to them.

format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

When you say the "Secular West", that doesn't mean the West is not religious, it only means the government doesn't favor any religion.
What happens when a government favors a particular religion ?

Plenty of western countries favor certain religions UK, Germany, the catholic countries like Portugal, Spain etc - recently Russia has Joined as well.

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format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

See, I know what the West understands for freedom of speech and I'm very confused about what the Islamic culture take is.

No they dont The Uk has different defamation laws then the US - Germany has strict No critic of Holocaust as well as Austria etc. It depends on the country and history.

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format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

Aside from what eesa the kiwi thinks of me, I'm in the middle with no bias towards any particular side, I just judge from what I see and experience and not from what a book tells me to do.

Your a secularist atheist your biased as anyone on this forum.

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format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

If I say, Communism and Islamic political systems have failed over and over thru history.
Ts that insulting towards Islam ?
Can Islam (as a political system) be criticized based purely on historical facts ?

Communism in Russia was secular - what Islamic system, it was preety successful until the colonialist came along. There is no one big Islamic system by the way.

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format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

If you're convinced that your system is the best that can most of the times make you look as intolerant
You can get blinded into your beliefs and not see the surroundings.

You think secularism is the best but you haven't chosen which one - the french, communist, Kamel Ataturk or the US.

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format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

Anjem Choudary,(an extremist Islamist) was condemned to 5 years in prison for it.

We were right to do so.

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format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

Some people that some consider Islamophobes (Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Lauren Southern, etc) were denied entry to the country when they find out they had schedule speeches or interviews to talk about Islam.

Zakir Naik was also barred - UKs laws, you have to abide by UK rules.

format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

Freedom of speech gives you the right to have an opinion and express it without fear of oppression or repression.
There is a limit to Freedom of Speech, hate speech is condemned in many countries where freedom of speech is allowed.
England is notorious for enforcing "hate speech" laws.
Anjem Choudary,(an extremist Islamist) was condemned to 5 years in prison for it.
Some people that some consider Islamophobes (Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Lauren Southern, etc) were denied entry to the country when they find out they had schedule speeches or interviews to talk about Islam.

Free speech clearly means allowing "hate" speech. Anjem Choudary, Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Lauren Southern, etc are all simply expressing their opinions. None of these people are stooping to the low level of Charlie Hebdo in producing pure insults without substance. These people have opinions that they are expressing, and whether you agree with them or not, a society with free speech would allow these people to express their opinions. You have managed to illustrate both the hypocrisy and the intolerance of the secular West.

Hud 11:91

قَالُوا۟ يَٰشُعَيْبُ مَا نَفْقَهُ كَثِيرًا مِّمَّا تَقُولُ وَإِنَّا لَنَرَىٰكَ فِينَا ضَعِيفًاۖ وَلَوْلَا رَهْطُكَ لَرَجَمْنَٰكَۖ وَمَآ أَنتَ عَلَيْنَا بِعَزِيزٍ

They said: "O Shu'aib! much of what thou sayest we do not understand! In fact among us we see that thou hast no strength! Were it not for thy family, we should certainly have stoned thee! for thou hast among us no great position!"


Hud 11:92

قَالَ يَٰقَوْمِ أَرَهْطِىٓ أَعَزُّ عَلَيْكُم مِّنَ ٱللَّهِ وَٱتَّخَذْتُمُوهُ وَرَآءَكُمْ ظِهْرِيًّاۖ إِنَّ رَبِّى بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ مُحِيطٌ

He said: "O my people! is then my family of more consideration with you than Allah? For ye cast Him away behind your backs (with contempt). But verily my Lord encompasseth on all sides all that ye do!




Maryam 19:46

قَالَ أَرَاغِبٌ أَنتَ عَنْ ءَالِهَتِى يَٰٓإِبْرَٰهِيمُۖ لَئِن لَّمْ تَنتَهِ لَأَرْجُمَنَّكَۖ وَٱهْجُرْنِى مَلِيًّا

(The father) replied: "Dost thou hate my gods, O Abraham? If thou forbear not, I will indeed stone thee: Now get away from me for a good long while!"


Ash-Shu'ara' 26:116

قَالُوا۟ لَئِن لَّمْ تَنتَهِ يَٰنُوحُ لَتَكُونَنَّ مِنَ ٱلْمَرْجُومِينَ

They said: "If thou desist not, O Noah! thou shalt be stoned (to death)."






وَٱضْرِبْ لَهُم مَّثَلًا أَصْحَٰبَ ٱلْقَرْيَةِ إِذْ جَآءَهَا ٱلْمُرْسَلُونَ

Set forth to them, by way of a parable, the (story of) the Companions of the City. Behold!, there came messengers to it.

إِذْ أَرْسَلْنَآ إِلَيْهِمُ ٱثْنَيْنِ فَكَذَّبُوهُمَا فَعَزَّزْنَا بِثَالِثٍ فَقَالُوٓا۟ إِنَّآ إِلَيْكُم مُّرْسَلُونَ

When We (first) sent to them two messengers, they rejected them: But We strengthened them with a third: they said, "Truly, we have been sent on a mission to you."

قَالُوا۟ مَآ أَنتُمْ إِلَّا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُنَا وَمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱلرَّحْمَٰنُ مِن شَىْءٍ إِنْ أَنتُمْ إِلَّا تَكْذِبُونَ

The (people) said: "Ye are only men like ourselves; and (Allah) Most Gracious sends no sort of revelation: ye do nothing but lie."

قَالُوا۟ رَبُّنَا يَعْلَمُ إِنَّآ إِلَيْكُمْ لَمُرْسَلُونَ

They said: "Our Lord doth know that we have been sent on a mission to you:

وَمَا عَلَيْنَآ إِلَّا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

"And our duty is only to proclaim the clear Message."

قَالُوٓا۟ إِنَّا تَطَيَّرْنَا بِكُمْۖ لَئِن لَّمْ تَنتَهُوا۟ لَنَرْجُمَنَّكُمْ وَلَيَمَسَّنَّكُم مِّنَّا عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ

The (people) said: "for us, we augur an evil omen from you: if ye desist not, we will certainly stone you. And a grievous punishment indeed will be inflicted on you by us."

قَالُوا۟ طَٰٓئِرُكُم مَّعَكُمْۚ أَئِن ذُكِّرْتُمۚ بَلْ أَنتُمْ قَوْمٌ مُّسْرِفُونَ

They said: "Your evil omens are with yourselves:
is it because you are admonished?
Rather you are a people transgressing all bounds!"

وَجَآءَ مِنْ أَقْصَا ٱلْمَدِينَةِ رَجُلٌ يَسْعَىٰ قَالَ يَٰقَوْمِ ٱتَّبِعُوا۟ ٱلْمُرْسَلِينَ

Then there came running, from the farthest part of the City, a man, saying, "O my people! Obey the messengers:

ٱتَّبِعُوا۟ مَن لَّا يَسْـَٔلُكُمْ أَجْرًا وَهُم مُّهْتَدُونَ

"Obey those who ask no reward of you (for themselves), and who have themselves received Guidance.

وَمَا لِىَ لَآ أَعْبُدُ ٱلَّذِى فَطَرَنِى وَإِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ

"It would not be reasonable in me if I did not serve Him Who created me, and to Whom ye shall (all) be brought back.

ءَأَتَّخِذُ مِن دُونِهِۦٓ ءَالِهَةً إِن يُرِدْنِ ٱلرَّحْمَٰنُ بِضُرٍّ لَّا تُغْنِ عَنِّى شَفَٰعَتُهُمْ شَيْـًٔا وَلَا يُنقِذُونِ

"Shall I take (other) gods besides Him? If (Allah) Most Gracious should intend some adversity for me, of no use whatever will be their intercession for me, nor can they deliver me.

إِنِّىٓ إِذًا لَّفِى ضَلَٰلٍ مُّبِينٍ

"I would indeed, if I were to do so, be in manifest Error.

إِنِّىٓ ءَامَنتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ فَٱسْمَعُونِ

"For me, I have faith in the Lord of you (all): listen, then, to me!"

قِيلَ ٱدْخُلِ ٱلْجَنَّةَۖ قَالَ يَٰلَيْتَ قَوْمِى يَعْلَمُونَ

It was said: "Enter thou the Garden." He said: "Ah me! Would that my People knew (what I know)!-

بِمَا غَفَرَ لِى رَبِّى وَجَعَلَنِى مِنَ ٱلْمُكْرَمِينَ

"For that my Lord has granted me Forgiveness and has enrolled me among those held in honour!"

وَمَآ أَنزَلْنَا عَلَىٰ قَوْمِهِۦ مِنۢ بَعْدِهِۦ مِن جُندٍ مِّنَ ٱلسَّمَآءِ وَمَا كُنَّا مُنزِلِينَ

And We sent not down against his People, after him, any hosts from heaven, nor was it needful for Us so to do.

إِن كَانَتْ إِلَّا صَيْحَةً وَٰحِدَةً فَإِذَا هُمْ خَٰمِدُونَ

It was no more than a single mighty Blast, and behold! they were (like ashes) quenched and silent.

يَٰحَسْرَةً عَلَى ٱلْعِبَادِۚ مَا يَأْتِيهِم مِّن رَّسُولٍ إِلَّا كَانُوا۟ بِهِۦ يَسْتَهْزِءُونَ

Ah! Alas for (My) Servants! There comes not a messenger to them but they mock him!

أَلَمْ يَرَوْا۟ كَمْ أَهْلَكْنَا قَبْلَهُم مِّنَ ٱلْقُرُونِ أَنَّهُمْ إِلَيْهِمْ لَا يَرْجِعُونَ

See they not how many generations before them we destroyed? Not to them will they return:

وَإِن كُلٌّ لَّمَّا جَمِيعٌ لَّدَيْنَا مُحْضَرُونَ

But each one of them all - will be brought before Us (for judgment).


Quran, Chapter 36, 13-32 (Yaa Seen)





It is better to use discretion with what Allah wants in mind than to fall into utter confusion on such issues as we see in the universal declarations that come out every once in a while - only to be amended to obscurity with no light at the end of the tunnel.

The reason for the confusion is that every individual has different ideas of right and wrong and these are often irreconcilable unless the people unite on a basic mindset.
Even when people attempt to unite on what they believe to be right and wrong in a country - they are negatively manipulated by the ruling class if the common will to obey God is absent. Then the issue of what is perceived as good or bad in a different country is raised when there is an inevitable clash of opinions - especially in the internet age - alongside the fact that a person may be born in a country but have opinions more in line with the opinions of what is legislated in a different country of which he/she has no citizenship.

Then when all secularist countries attempt to come upon a common word - they fall into confusion again since there is no common word that is without flaw other than laa ilaaha illa Allah - worse still they end up getting bullied by the most corrupt in society due to their disunity and inability to adhere to a universal plumbline - and the statement of Paul Warburg before the american senate in reference to world government is proof of this.

When one person is a satanist, another blairite, another bushite, another anarchist, another sodomite, another bestial, another usurious, another racist, another nudist, another likes to skydive over cities whilst urinating, another hates any given colour, etc someone or other will take strong exception to the words of another and the confusion will turn into killing somewhere down the line since the terms "good" and "bad" don't mean anything tangible in any common sort of way.



Al-Hashr 59:14

لَا يُقَٰتِلُونَكُمْ جَمِيعًا إِلَّا فِى قُرًى مُّحَصَّنَةٍ أَوْ مِن وَرَآءِ جُدُرٍۭۚ بَأْسُهُم بَيْنَهُمْ شَدِيدٌۚ تَحْسَبُهُمْ جَمِيعًا وَقُلُوبُهُمْ شَتَّىٰۚ ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَوْمٌ لَّا يَعْقِلُونَ

They will not fight you (even) together, except in fortified townships, or from behind walls. Strong is their fighting (spirit) amongst themselves: thou wouldst think they were united, but their hearts are divided: that is because they are a people devoid of wisdom.


Aal-e-Imran 3:105

وَلَا تَكُونُوا۟ كَٱلَّذِينَ تَفَرَّقُوا۟ وَٱخْتَلَفُوا۟ مِنۢ بَعْدِ مَا جَآءَهُمُ ٱلْبَيِّنَٰتُۚ وَأُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ

Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving Clear Signs: For them is a dreadful penalty,-


Ash-Shura 42:14

وَمَا تَفَرَّقُوٓا۟ إِلَّا مِنۢ بَعْدِ مَا جَآءَهُمُ ٱلْعِلْمُ بَغْيًۢا بَيْنَهُمْۚ وَلَوْلَا كَلِمَةٌ سَبَقَتْ مِن رَّبِّكَ إِلَىٰٓ أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى لَّقُضِىَ بَيْنَهُمْۚ وَإِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ أُورِثُوا۟ ٱلْكِتَٰبَ مِنۢ بَعْدِهِمْ لَفِى شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ مُرِيبٍ

And they became divided only after Knowledge reached them,- through selfish envy as between themselves. Had it not been for a Word that went forth before from thy Lord, (tending) to a Term appointed, the matter would have been settled between them: But truly those who have inherited the Book after them are in suspicious (disquieting) doubt concerning it.


Al-An'am 6:9

وَلَوْ جَعَلْنَٰهُ مَلَكًا لَّجَعَلْنَٰهُ رَجُلًا وَلَلَبَسْنَا عَلَيْهِم مَّا يَلْبِسُونَ

If We had made it an angel, We should have sent him as a man, and We should certainly have caused them confusion in a matter which they have already covered with confusion.


Al-An'am 6:65

قُلْ هُوَ ٱلْقَادِرُ عَلَىٰٓ أَن يَبْعَثَ عَلَيْكُمْ عَذَابًا مِّن فَوْقِكُمْ أَوْ مِن تَحْتِ أَرْجُلِكُمْ أَوْ يَلْبِسَكُمْ شِيَعًا وَيُذِيقَ بَعْضَكُم بَأْسَ بَعْضٍۗ ٱنظُرْ كَيْفَ نُصَرِّفُ ٱلْءَايَٰتِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَفْقَهُونَ

Say: "He hath power to send calamities on you, from above and below, or to cover you with confusion in party strife, giving you a taste of mutual vengeance - each from the other." See how We explain the signs by various (symbols); that they may understand.



Al-Anbiya 21:22

لَوْ كَانَ فِيهِمَآ ءَالِهَةٌ إِلَّا ٱللَّهُ لَفَسَدَتَاۚ فَسُبْحَٰنَ ٱللَّهِ رَبِّ ٱلْعَرْشِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ

If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides Allah, there would have been confusion in both! but glory to Allah, the Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!


Al-Mu'minun 23:71

وَلَوِ ٱتَّبَعَ ٱلْحَقُّ أَهْوَآءَهُمْ لَفَسَدَتِ ٱلسَّمَٰوَٰتُ وَٱلْأَرْضُ وَمَن فِيهِنَّۚ بَلْ أَتَيْنَٰهُم بِذِكْرِهِمْ فَهُمْ عَن ذِكْرِهِم مُّعْرِضُونَ

If the Truth had been in accord with their desires, truly the heavens and the earth, and all beings therein would have been in confusion and corruption! Nay, We have sent them their admonition, but they turn away from their admonition.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech


https://www.politico.eu/article/inte...ebook-twitter/

https://www.collective-evolution.com...rberg-meeting/


https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.a377c4c5412b




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Molossia





When however people unite upon the truth and submit to God, universal values and opinions on what is good and what is bad prevail, and people are more willing to temper discretion by a basic standard - this is obvious to those who care to think.






Aal-e-Imran 3:103

وَٱعْتَصِمُوا۟ بِحَبْلِ ٱللَّهِ جَمِيعًا وَلَا تَفَرَّقُوا۟ۚ وَٱذْكُرُوا۟ نِعْمَتَ ٱللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ إِذْ كُنتُمْ أَعْدَآءً فَأَلَّفَ بَيْنَ قُلُوبِكُمْ فَأَصْبَحْتُم بِنِعْمَتِهِۦٓ إِخْوَٰنًا وَكُنتُمْ عَلَىٰ شَفَا حُفْرَةٍ مِّنَ ٱلنَّارِ فَأَنقَذَكُم مِّنْهَاۗ كَذَٰلِكَ يُبَيِّنُ ٱللَّهُ لَكُمْ ءَايَٰتِهِۦ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ

And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided.

Greetings and peace be with you Raymann;

I have no bias,

I don't think anyone can claim that, here are some of your quotes from another thread.

I agree that Iraq was not totally justified based on the fact that they never found the WMDs.
Doesn't mean they didn't exist but they never found them.

So you don't seem that bothered by Iraq getting invaded, you just say they might have hidden some weapons, so America had the right to invade. Everyone know that America has probably got the biggest stockpile of hidden WMDs in the world, lets all go and bomb America.

It would be totally wrong to bomb America as it was totally wrong to bomb Iraq.

Most of the casualties came after the invasion, when all different groups were loose to attack each other.

You are still trying to justify that most of the deaths were not America's fault. Clearly this would not have happened if America had not unjustly invaded in the first place.

Still, I agree, that was a mistake after seeing the results.

It wasn't a mistake, it was planned and premeditated. It was WRONG and immoral, lets not mince words. I am horrified at the amount of wars that America and the UK have got themselves involved in. They have no thought for any peace plan and they make the world a more volatile place to live in.

You can see my bias!

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann

Absolutely not, free speech is legal, hate speech is not.

format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt

I wish Atheists knew what Freedom of Speech really is
but I know there's no hope.

I rest my case.