How is the test of life fair?

@Nájlá

I understand what you are talking about and please don't take what I say as me being disrespectful, as I certainly don't mean it to be viewed as such. In regards to your points I have few remarks to make:

Firstly, Just because some 12 year old can accept and convert to Islam doesn't mean everyone can do the same. e.g. as I have said many of my colleagues were ignorant of Islam at a young age and accepted at late age. I am merely stating that God is fair in most context, but in some context such as the test of life God is obviously unfair (or so I am led to believe based on everything I have read about and talked about). I am specifically showing in once such example using the 18 year old as an demonstration as to how God has created a system that is unfair as it favors some individuals over others. If you read in my previous posts I explain the scenario clearly. I would like some one to explain how this is fair?

Secondly, Yes God works in a way Humans can't understand and maybe God is fair, but based on everything we are revealed and shown; we are correct to assume God is unfair. If God didn't want that than I believe God should have created a fair test or revealed the answer to my question in the Quran.

Thirdly, Maybe God is guiding me; hence I am here seeking answers. I truly believe that their is an answer but I can't accept to just say "God is correct and will prove it to me in the hereafter", this is because if I apply the same principle to say Christianity one could argue "Trinity will make sense to you once Jesus meets you in the afterlife". Islam is a religion of logic and we can apply logic to make sense of everything God has revealed.

Finally in regards to dying as a child, the Issues isn't whether what you or I want; but rather God should make it fair so that everyone should feel as though they have equal chance succeeding in this test. Likewise, we should consider the perspective of the child; as they like us asked God to send us to this world to be tested. If they die as soon as they are born or young; they didn't get the same opportunity as say some one that lived to 80 for example. Just like the 80 year old for example the baby also asked to take this test; but was not allowed to. Please explain how that is fair?

I would appreciate it if someone takes the time to address each point without taking my examples too literally.

format_quote Originally Posted by john.bob

. I feel that had they died younger they would be destined for hellfire. Now, if im correct the younger men I mentioned could now argue why did he get to live till he accepted islam and I died before i was even able prove what I would've done had i lived that long.

You talk a little bit weird. Allah determines the day of death in advance. When it's written, that Patrick will die in the age of 75 and accept Islam with 40, that Patrick will not die with 25. So it is nonsense to argue like that: but if he would have died earlier, he would have gone to hell. That argument is not logic, because his death was fixed to 75, so Allah will not allow, that this man will die earlier. No one is destined for hell. We have a free will. That would be nonsense to have a free will, when it would be programmed to go to hell. That wouldn't be fair. That's not just.
Allah wrote down the future of all humans in advance, before creation. He wrote, what they will do, because he knows the future. He wrote, because they will do. Not he wrote something and it will happen like that. That would be preprogramming like a robot.

You have to realize, that getting old is a gift. To get old is not your right. You cannot rely on that. You have no claim for that.

A long life is not a guarantee for accepting Islam. Accepting Islam is not connected to any age. Even someone, who will die with 21 can accept Islam before that time.
But if that person did really never hear of Islam, he is not to blame. He will get a second test in the hereafter. Allah said clearly in the Quran, that he never punished before he did send a warner.

A person dies young, that can have two main reasons: he collected already enough good deeds at that age and nothing could make him better. Or Allah, as he knows the future, knew, that this person will never accept Islam, even if he lived for 200 years. Allah knows the unseen, the future. He knows, if someone would accept Islam, if he let him get 90 years old. If Allah saw this, he won't let him die with 15. Do you understand that. A person cannot argue like that: why did not you let me live longer to find out about Islam.... Allah knew in advance, that that person would not have accepted Islam, when he would have let him live longer. We don't know, what we would have done in future, but Allah knows. The test is for us, not for God.

@SidratulMuntah thank you again for another detailed answer, however I have some issues with your answer.

Firstly, you claim that if someone died early in life e.g. 19 And if they claimed to God "why didn't you let me live long as this man x who converted to Islam at y age". God could reply "I knew you would have died a sinner so it doesn't matter how long you live". This then means why bother letting him live to 19 if your just gonna send him to hell any way. God couldv'e just said to him before sending him to this test that he would fail and send him to hellfire. In which case making that Individual was pointless.

Secondly, please don't take my examples literally. I'm not arguing that at a young age such as 18,19,20, etc. it is impossible to become a dedicated Muslim. I am merely saying in general the western society has youngsters that are too distracted or uninterested in religion. Which has led to many converting late in life.

Thirdly, I understand we have free will and that God simply wrote down what choices make etc. They are not Gods control over us. Does this imply that if I were to commit suicide I controlled when I died and not God. I understand this is slightly off topic from my main question but I would appreciate an answer.

Also if you don't mind I would also like an answer to my question regarding deaths of young sinless children/babies. I have asked it in detail in previous posts.

@john.bob
You think that the person who converted to İslaam is a good thing? That he deserves a medal? NO. What he did was wrong. He should have believed in Allah right away when he first heart about it. İf he goes to heaven than only because Allahs mercy.

Besides no one gets a heavier burden than they can carry. İf person x was destined to die at age 20....then it was expected that he could have believed if he wanted...he just did not want that.

The game rules are the same for everyone...no one knows when he dies...no one has the guarantee to die at old age....you should believe before your death....and living you entire life as a sinner and converting at the last second is NOT a good thing.

format_quote Originally Posted by john.bob

This then means why bother letting him live to 19 if your just gonna send him to hell any way. God couldv'e just said to him before sending him to this test that he would fail and send him to hellfire. In which case making that Individual was pointless.

Look, I told you already, that it is a test for us. We undergo the exam. God does not undergo the test. Yes, God can tell that in advance to a person, let´s call him Tom, that he will go to hell, and he could put him instantly to hell, but that moment Allah is not just. Tom could say: Why do you put me into hell? No, I wont be a sinner, I wont be bad. I have no evidence for that. But Allah is just. He lets us live the life, our life is our evidence. When we lived it, we will know, what we did. We will see, how many times we did sin. We will know, when we go to hell, why we go to hell. Allah said that already, that none will complain against his justice, because the inhabitants of hell will know, that they deserved it. Allah sends no one to hell, who did not deserve it. Are you more just, more gracious and more smart than Allah? Too, I told you already, that every soul agreed after it was created, that it want to be born on earth as a human and to be tested with the chance of paradise. Out of you, Satan is speaking. You turn around like a snake. If someone explaines to you things, you again start debating the same things from the beginning again. The problem is, you dont want to believe and you will find excuses again and again. You will say: yes, you are right, BUT... or yes, I understand, BUT...
Look, when the soul of Tom agreed to be born as a human on earth and to be tested, God, who is absolute just, will not suddenly say: You go to hell instantly now, I see, that you will be so and so. No, he will let him live. They did not made a contract about, how long will that life be. And when the test is about living just 15 years and die, so it is like that. The person, who died early without doing any sin, he/ she will be rewarded for that in the hereafter. This behaviour of always saying: but if this had happened, but if that had happend, it is from Satan. It will lead you astray.
Allah revealed to us, what he wanted us to know. We dont know every single wisdom behind the things he does. I can just guess or suspect. But suspicions bring nothing. If we knew all wisdom behind his steps, we would be God.

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format_quote Originally Posted by john.bob

Thirdly, I understand we have free will and that God simply wrote down what choices make etc. They are not Gods control over us. Does this imply that if I were to commit suicide I controlled when I died and not God. I understand this is slightly off topic from my main question but I would appreciate an answer.

No, you did not control your suicide. Nothing happens without God´s permission. Every single step of our free will would not happen without his permission. But for the sake of the free will, God allowed evil.
If you really would have planned suicide on 1st december 2021, for example, so when Allah saw your future in advance, he knew you will commit suicide on that 01-12-2021. So to not intervene into your free will, what would be unjust, because he guaranteed it to us without any condition, he fixed your day of death in your destiny to that particular day.

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format_quote Originally Posted by john.bob

Also if you don't mind I would also like an answer to my question regarding deaths of young sinless children/babies. I have asked it in detail in previous posts.

I am new to that board. I don´t know all your previous posts.

Babies and children under the puberty their sins will not be written. And sure, a newborn can´t have any sin.

If these babies and children die/die young, they will be rewarded for that in the hereafter. You are rigth, they did not commit any sin.
They still did not undergo the test. But they are a test for others, how others deal with that loss: the parents, the family, the society.

These babies, children will go to paradise. They are together with Abraham in one of the seven heavens and play with him. They wait there to be
later re-united with their parents in paradise.

Allah said that in the Quran:

"And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient..." (Quran 2:155)

@Umit Firstly people that convert didn't get the choice to be Muslim when they were born and will naturally be hesitant to accept something that challenges their beliefs they have practiced since childhood.

Also, we know that Humans have free will and therefore are in control of their lives. Many people commit suicide due to pressure in their life exceeding that which they can withstand. This proves that they have been burdened far beyond their capabilities.

If we do not know when we will die, it is impossible to convert in the last minute; since we do not know when our last minute will be. Also Many converts are very dedicated and will go to extreme lengths to fulfill the five pillars and regret their childhood as a disbeliever.
@SidratulMuntah I never claimed that God is undergoing the test, I know humans are the ones being tested. I agree with your example of Tom but lets now say that Bob who is very similar to Tom and is a disbeliever but he accepts Islam at the age of 38. Now this is an issue because Tom didn't get to live to the same age to potentially accept Islam, though probably wouldn't have converted. But Didn't God make this test so that their can be evidence that this disbeliever would have stayed a disbeliever no matter how long he lives. I feel God simply end his test abruptly, whilst other disbelievers die at 80, 90, etc. How is that fair? If we are given the same exam we should be given the same time to complete it, so that nobody has complaints at the end or feel cheated.

You also claim that we have free will, but we do not control if we commit suicide; this contradicts because for example some one was to hang themselves, is it the action God that hanged him or was it the control of the individual being hanged. If it is under Gods control then the individual does not have free will, but if the individual did commit suicide under hos own control; then he has clearly been give burden beyond his capability and therefore took his own life to relieve himself without Gods influence. i.e. if he had lived any longer he would be under increasing burden.

Also your answer to the points about babies dying, clearly states that babies are more favored to enter paradise without hardship; whilst us adults will have to suffer to potentially even miss paradise. How is that fair. Likewise, didn't the baby ask to be tested like us; how comes his request was ignored and instead taken early. How is that fair?

Please don't say that Satan is speaking out of me, just because I am seeking to accept islam. Clearly, Satan wouldn't want that. I am merely applying logic to prove your and everyone else's answers wrong; as they fail to satisfy what I am looking for. They seem to always leave me with more questions than answers.

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format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*

We have answered your question regarding this. Their judgement is with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and no one knows of anyone's fate except for Him.

You have not answered my question, you are simply saying that you do not know and that we should just believe in Allah. This is not a logical answer as belief could imply any religion is correct, we should apply logic so that it makes sense to anyone. Based on what is revealed and what we know, we are free to make assumptions; which we can't be held accountable for as God did not reveal the answer to us.

format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*

Everyone was created solely to worship Allah. That is why you are created. You are not created to be placed in paradise or hell, rather that is what you are given based on your deeds/the result of your worship (or lack thereof). So your question on why bother creating someone if he is going to go to hell anyway, it is because he was created to worship Allah, and SINCE HE FAILED TO DO SO, he goes to hell. Your soul chose to take this test, you were given the chance to prove that you will worship Allah, so if you CHOSE this, then it is YOUR fault that you did not put in the effort to seek guidance and failed to worship Allah. I think that's pretty fair. You also shouldn't compare anyone's life to someone else's. Some people live until they are only 12 and they have went through more than what some 50 year olds have been through, so age is really JUST a number relative to the events that happen in one's life. And I'm sorry but I don't believe anyone who is 18 doesn't think about religion or their life. Sure they are distracted, but they think about it, they just don't care and are lazy and want to run after their desires. Allah sends us signs all the time and death happens all around us. There really is no excuse for anyone not to learn if they are sound of mind unless they themselves refuse to do it.

Yes I understand God created everyone to worship God, but why did an individual get created to take a test that he isn't given the opportunity to complete whilst others are. I fail to see how your point above relates to my question which is that:

So suppose we have two people both born in say a Christian family and let's say one is very devout to his religion and the other is more casual and doesn't care much, he just happened to have Christian parents. Like your typical teen they go through school not to concerned yet about religion and reach say the age of 20. Still very young and focused on their sorting their future lives not too serious about religion; as most people are in the west at this age.Suppose the less religious person suddenly dies due to an accident, very probable and has occurred to many people in the world. The devout religious person continues his life and eventually converts to Islam at say 35, which he practices until death.The question is therefore, is it unfair that the first person who died early when he was still developing and didn't get a chance to reach full maturity or reach a standard livelihood to be able to pursue say religion? Even if would have remained say a disbeliever till death, wasn't letting him live on earth their to prove he would have died a disbeliever and to avoid having to say "I knew you would have lived to die a disbeliever anyway".The first person who died can now argue that if I had lived to the same age as person 2 I might have become a Muslim. If Allah was simply going to say to him " I knew you would have lived to die a disbeliever anyway" than why did Allah give him a life on in the first place.Please come to the Uk and go to any street and find any 18, 19, 20, etc. young person and try to convert them to Islam and see how seriously they take it. Some mayconvert but most will not take you seriously/ ignore you. However, I know Muslim converts who admitted that they were very ignorant at 20 and became devout mulims later on in their lives. They have even admitted that they feel blessed to have lived to accept Islam and that they expressed sadness those younger ones that die before accepting Islam.

format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*

Accepting Allah's decree is one of our tests, and after that baby dies, you don't know their fate so you can't really say what is unfair since our soul doesn't necessarily die, we are just taken from this world.

@SidratulMuntah pointed out that babies/ sinless children do go to paradise automatically; which contradicts with what you say; as we do know what happens to young sinless children after death. This than relates to my question of fairness from the perspective of the child who asked to take the test but was instead used as a tool to be a test for their parents. How is that fair? Likewise, many people would prefer to die young and go to paradise for free, for example the 18/ 20 year old homeless individual living in war torn countries; who may possibly go to hell for not fulfilling their obligations as muslims. e.g. 5 daily salat, ramadan, lack of faith due to struggles, etc.

@azc please understand the whole purpose of my question is too clear my doubts, in hopes of accepting Islam one day. I would much rather prefer you comment here to answer my question than to come here attacking me.
@*charisma* I understand what you are saying, so in theory the 20 year old in my example should go to hell for ignoring the warnings and Islams teachings. Then what if the young men questions to God why didn't you let me live long as the other individual who accepted Islam at a later age, who was exactly like the 20 year old when the convert was younger.

I understand time is not always the indicator for someone to achieve the correct path in life e.g. 12 year old converts., but in this very plausible and real life example it just so happens to be the case that an individual who was astray was guided later in life. This then implicates that younger people can feel cheated out, especially as this was supposed to be their chance to prove themselves (of course god already knows the outcome). God should have let them live to the same age or beyond to make it fairer. Although this may not be a solution, it would certainly eliminate the issue I highlighted.
@Insaanah greetings to you too, I have read alot about Islam and find it fascinating and very logical. I have few tiny issues that I am seeking answers to, hence I am here.

@*charisma* I am not so easily convinced as others are as I wish to follow the correct path, not just a path that seems right. You see God created a system i.e. this life as a test. God claims he is absolute Just. But if we observe this system we can prove that it is infact not Just at all. Therefore God has made an incorrect statement, which than disproves god. please answer what god could say to the individual I spoke of in my last post, then I will reply with an response to counter that. I am not concerned with things such as who knows what if someone dies earlier, I am merely observing the system god created and testing if truly is a fair test for everyone.
@Eric H are you a muslim, eventhough your info under your name says christianity. I agree with what you say but it still does not address my question so please do not reply to my post unless you have an answer, Thank you