My Conversation with a Muslim and a White Nationalist

format_quote Originally Posted by Physicist

And what is this Plato's influence in essense? Excuse my ignorance, I know only "Platonic love", which seems as a pure worship of a human and therefore anti-islamic.

"White nationalist" - kind of a person who worships the race and the state, similar to football funclubs - worshipping some "We". Pure racist (or ethnicist?) at least has some solid ground, considering ethnicity as an extended family.
But nationalists and football funs are simply infantiles who need to grow up.

Plato introduced the idea of absolute truth. Before Plato belief simply meant to trust something which is a relative concept (you can trust it). Without Plato, all these stupid arguments about what is true disappear and instead one only asks what can be trusted. A bad belief is just untrustworthy and not worth arguing against unless it harms others. With this view, you don't waste your time arguing against "infantile" beliefs, you just ignore them.

Based on the idea of trustworthiness, today's Islam is a complete failure. Nothing that modern Islam produces is trustworthy - not government, not communities, and not most people. In effect, this is God's judgement against modern Islam. Sunni Islam refuses to innovate because it has absorbed Plato and only accepts revelation as truth. This is the cause of its failure. If one focuses on trustworthiness, then one naturally uses inductive reasoning to form new beliefs. This makes innovation sound and based on God's judgements on Earth. And this allows progress in religion, in particular the ability to respond to new threats like the evils of modern culture.

format_quote Originally Posted by Physicist

Such absolutism much older than Plato. He didn't invent it, rather formalized. Let's call this worshipping for a convenience. If one worshipping something he doesn't question it, assuming absolute and perfect be it in love or in fear (like animal toward fire).
Humans used to worship many things, Sun, Weather, etc much before Islam.

The very first concept in Islam:
La ilaha illAllah : no one and nothing to be worshipped but God.
In effect it cancels worshipping from anything in the Universe: you feel temptation to worship something, nope you can't, this is just a creation of God, to him all worship belongs.

None of this requires absolutism. One can have perfect faith in something without it being absolute. In fact everyone must have faith in whatever their primary assumptions (axioms) of reasoning are. For me, this is inductive reasoning. But I don't consider this absolute and I see no problem with other people who may not share this belief.

format_quote Originally Posted by Physicist

May be those are just different absolutes.
Animalistic ones - feeling based, like absolute fear of fire. Absolute truth is logic based.
I don't see problem of Allah posessing Absolute Truth.
But perhaps you mean about Al-Quran being considered as an Absolute Truth.

Absolute truth is a concept, not a feeling. I have read the Quran and I find it to be an excellent book even though I am not Muslim. This leaves me with the question, what is wrong with Islam today? And I feel that I can trace all errors in modern Islam back to Plato. Muhammad himself seemed like an excellent person, so I can't hold him at fault either. I think it was the contamination by Greek thought that ruined Islam.

This thread is a practical example of what I mean. How many people listened to the video? It seems like none just because they disagree with racism. I don't believe in racism either but I have no problem talking to a racist because I have nothing against beliefs that differ from my own. The closed-mindedness of Muslims is a product of Plato, not of the Quran or of Muhammad. Plato advocated intolerance and the censorship of ideas he thought were false. Neither the Quran nor Muhammad ever took this position.

format_quote Originally Posted by Physicist

Alhamdulillah brother fwchmidt, I didn't learn as much as you before embracing Islam.
For me it was more the question "Is Islam is the way?", "Will Ummah evolve to adequately respond to the volatile reality?"

Intelligent and honest people embracing Islam will turn like chain reaction. Come on, join the party.

I follow the Old Testament which is very similar to the Quran but fits me better. "Is Islam is the way?" Islam is a trustworthy way, as is the Old Testament. "Will Ummah evolve to adequately respond to the volatile reality?" Not in the near future. But Muslims should work on forming small communities of people who can respond adequately.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed.

White nationalist attacks jews!

While I don't support violence, at least this time they attacked the right target. Talmudic Judaism is a plague on humanity.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed.

Lol am I hearing right???

You supporting terrorism? Because that's what it amounts to!

look at the reason why he targeted jews? It's the same immigration and 'white genocide' greviances of theirs you are apparently supporting

The jews (your people?) Are their number 1 enemy. That's why they target synagogues and government buildings like in Oklahoma bombing and Norway attacks, because they believe the western governments are the ZOG (zionist occupational government)

I said that I don't support violence, so obviously I don't support terrorism.

I don't support the white nationalist position, but I don't oppose it either. I think people should be free to do what they want as long as they don't harm others. Listen to my video to understand.

How are the jews my people? Are you talking racially or religiously? If racially, that makes you a racist. If religiously, then you don't understand Talmudic Judaism.

format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt

I said that I don't support violence, so obviously I don't support terrorism.

I don't support the white nationalist position, but I don't oppose it either. I think people should be free to do what they want as long as they don't harm others. Listen to my video to understand.

How are the jews my people? Are you talking racially or religiously? If racially, that makes you a racist. If religiously, then you don't understand Talmudic Judaism.

But that's what ultimately precipitates their attacks; their speech of hate and racist greviances boils over into violent attacks

I said jews are your people because you mentioned once you are a Jew

format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed.

But that's what ultimately precipitates their attacks; their speech of hate and racist greviances boils over into violent attacks

Wrong. It is because of censorship, supported by people like members of this forum, that the only way one can now express oneself is through violence. The cause of violence is censorship. Without censorship, one could reason with these people.

I said jews are your people because you mentioned once you are a Jew

I am also human. Does that make you my people? No.

I am racially Jewish but I don't define my people by race. My people is basically whoever accepts God and rejects Plato. (And there don't seem to be many such people.)

format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt

A version of Islam free of the influence of Plato would be so successful and so wealthy that almost everyone would want to join it. Even white nationalists would convert to such a religion.

Plato doesn't have influence on Islam.

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format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt

Plato introduced the idea of absolute truth. Before Plato belief simply meant to trust something which is a relative concept (you can trust it). Without Plato, all these stupid arguments about what is true disappear and instead one only asks what can be trusted. A bad belief is just untrustworthy and not worth arguing against unless it harms others. With this view, you don't waste your time arguing against "infantile" beliefs, you just ignore them

No - the only absolute in Islam is God - everything else is contingent on God's Power, mercy, will, Knowledge, wisdom etc. before plato there were pre Socratics and they had all sorts of beliefs from many Gods. Muslims developed all sorts of Ideas and Plato had the least influence - Only al farabi comes to mind. Aristotle influenced people like Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushed but the mainstream Islamic thought which Goes through the Atharis, Asharis and Maturidi who developed there own theology based on the Reason, The Quran and sunnah.

Furthermore Muslims didn't Just accept Greek philosophy many criticized it like Ibn Taymiyya and the Hanblites - others like the Asharis (Baqalini, Al Ghazzali, Fakur din Al Razi) and the Maturidi (Imam Nasafi and most of the Hanafis) developed there own theology based on greek logic but rejected and dismantled anything they saw as contradicting revelation and sound Reason.

format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt

If one focuses on trustworthiness, then one naturally uses inductive reasoning to form new beliefs

Inductive reasoning has major flaw that have nothing to do with plato - you need read the problem of induction be David Hume or the "black swan problem - Induction is useful and Humans use it because its practical but it needs a deductive bases or axiom (usually logic based on reason) - In Islam we can trust our senses because we establish a necessary Being, that has the will and power (God) to sustain time and space - without that bases induction is probabilistic at worst or just a habit/custom.

White supremacist are losers - I have listened to some of the conversation and its just him whining. The Muslim also has bad English which doesn't help.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al_Ghazali

How is it racism? It isn't any different than Palestinians not wanting their own country flooded by foreign Jews. It's not that the Arabs hated Jews. No, it was because they didn't want their land and society to be subject to cultural uprooting by a foreign demographic.

It is different because Allah doesn't distinguish based on skin colour, but upon heedfulness to His just guidance, and the qawm a person chooses to live amongst. A Muslim from the tribe of Banee Israeel would be welcomed as a brother - whereas a malicious and Godless invader would be rightly considered an enemy of the people and an enemy of God..


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format_quote Originally Posted by Al_Ghazali

How is it "worshipping ones own tribe?"

There is nothing wrong with a tribe not wanting their cultural and political landscape to be replaced by something completely forign.

Again, the term "foreign" did not apply amongst the Muslims of Al Madeenah, and people who raised narrow minded and baseless slogans of jaahiliyyah were considered as followers of ibless who was arrogant regarding his status amongst creation due to the fact that he considered himself to be superior -not by Allah's measure, but by his own measure of racism - a false assumption of merit which Allah rejected and threw him out of the boardroom due to his arrogant insubordination.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al_Ghazali

Paris looks like Pakistan these days.

Dunno if you mean that in a good way or a bad way, or whether you are attempting to ascribe negative connotations without substance.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al_Ghazali

There is nothing racist in rejecting something like that.

Well, the sky is usually blue during the day above both pieces of mud, dunno why someone would reject it - unless they are simply playing games with people's minds by attempting to conjure illusions within a void.