Four madhabs

format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed.

This is a misunderstanding too brother as I'm sure Shaykh AbdurRahman isn't a Mujtahid Scholar; such scholars are incredibly rare these days and hardly anyone could qualify to that extent. This is why we follow the past Mujtahidoun of the first 3 centuries.

And without being a Mujtahid one is not qualified for ijtihad so Mr AbdurRahman is making mistakes in choosing from all four madhabs as a guy who doesn't have the 'full picture' (The complete prerequisite knowledge to make accurate judgements) is bound to do

See link in my first post on this thread to see the prerequisites of mujtahid

Do you really think Allah will select Islam as Religion for entire humanity and make it so difficult that no one can understand it except by the people with in first three centuries of Islam?

format_quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi

In hanafi fiqh if you touch a woman your wuddoo doesn't break in shafi fiqh it does

Rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam is narrated to have kissed his wives before prayer so in this issue the hanafi position is stronger if I am a shafi and it becomes clear to me that this the stronger position but I say well the scholars of my madhab say otherwise so I am going to ignore the ahadith

This is what I mean by blind following sorry if I wasn't clear

İ do not have much knowledge about shafi...but you need to ask yourself...
why would imam shafi reject such an important hadeeth if it really was saheeh?
i can think of 2 reasons:
1 either that hadeeth is not as saheeh as you think it is...or
2 there is another saheeh hadeeth which describes the opposite...so he had to make a choice.

or do you think that your judgement is better than imam shafi's?

sorry if İ sound a little bit rude...not my intention to insult anyone.

format_quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi

Do you believe you are astray if you dont follow a madhab?
Do you believe the 4 madhabs are 100% correct

Yes I do and I'll tell you exactly why.

It makes sense to me that one has to be a Mujtahid scholar to perform ijtihad or even judge one opinion over another. A contemporary scholar can say that a madhabi opinion is based on weak hadith and he's seen a sahih hadith that changes that opinion but since that contemporary scholar himself is not a hadith scholar, he is just doing taqlid of someone else regarding the weakness and strength of hadiths so it's better to follow a real Mujtahid than one who tries to refute a real Mujtahid while he does taqlid of someone else.

Ijma (consensus) is a major proof in Islam and Quran and hadith says consensus can never be wrong. Also no less then 3 points in imam tahawi's aqeeda mention to adhere to consensus, and the consensus of the scholars is for non-mujtahids to follow one of the four madhabs; they say it is wajib to follow one of the 4.

Quran and hadith doesn't say to follow a madhab but it does say to obey scholarly authority and consensus.

Sahaba (ra) never followed madhabs as there was no need then. Sahaba's mother tongue was Quranic Arabic and most of them? were Mujtahids themselves. But from 3rd century there is need for madhab and there is need to adhere to only 1 from the 4 and not pick and choose from all 4 and the consensus has agreed on this

In Quran it says Allah will protect the Quran.... this promise extends to the Quranic interpretation too and thus Quran and hadith (hadith about 73 groups) indicates there will always be a group of Muslims with this correct Islam. Also they both indicate/say that it will be the majority group. The 4 madhabs and ashari/maruridi group consists of the majority and they've been there for last 1000 years, so it cannot be that all Muslims went astray and the correct Islam has just been revived by the la-madhabi salafi group

Have you read this link:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mhfatwa.htm

If not I'll reccomrnd you do as it makes very clear and good points of how following a madhab has to be the right way.

The 4 madhabs have been rectified and verified by the consensus for centuries too and they've declared them to be all correct so the argument that an individual Imam can make mistakes doesn't apply here as madhabs are the collective checked and approved works of many Imams and not just one.

PS: Regarding the 100% accuracy of the 4 madhabs; it is the foremost opinions of the madhabs (The one's that have been put out for followers to follow) that are correct. They are all correct for laymen but yet laymen just adheres to his own madhab to avoid cherry picking, but they are not all correct for Mujtahid scholars as mujtahids have to follow their own ijtihad.

format_quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi

So if not following a madhab makes one astray how do you explain the sahabah radiallaho anhum not following a madhab

You seem to have the opinion ijtihad is closed but even scholars of your own madhabs make ijtihad

Anyway I'm not trying to argue, me personally I don't follow a madhab I was taught by hanafis when I first converted but I didn't like neglecting sunnahs because my madhab said differently. I embraced Islam to follow rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam not Abu hanifa

Also the line the madhabs are 100% right is mistaken often they are contradicting each other sometimes seriously
In some madhabs if you neglect to read fatiha your Salah is invalid but in the hanbali madhab your prayer is valid

How can your prayer be valid and not valid at the same time
And let's say (I'm not commenting on the fiqh here just an example)if I'm a hanbali and it becomes clear to me the position of reading surah fatiha is correct wouldn't I be in error to miss out reciting potentially invalidating my Salah because I want to stick to one madhab

The deen isnt rocket science I'm not saying laymen should attempt to derive rulings themselves but you can benefit from scholars of other madhabs and if you believe the daleel is there you cant reject what rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam said for the teachings of fulaan

I dont buy this cherry picking argument either. I dont seek rulings based on trying to make halal haram or find some random scholar who says riba is halal because it appeals to my nafs I try follow what has the strongest evidence. Yes I may get it wrong in some fiqh issues but if you follow only 1 madhab 100 % there will be areas of fiqh your madhab got it wrong
. Have a little faith in the integrity of the muslims we aren't all seeking to follow our nafs

The sahaba (ra) didn't need to follow madhabs as they understood Islam properly as they were living amongst the natural Quranic Arabic as well as most of them being mujtahids themselves

Its sort of like, there weren't alarm clocks in the 7th century but if a person needs it now then it becomes necessary for him to use it and it's not bidah. Similarly if there is a need for madhabs then it becomes necessary.

Following a madhab 100% doesn't increase chance of error as as I said, the 4 madhabs have been verified for centuries by consensus and they've declared them all to be correct.
.
Hadith says differences of opinions for the ummah is a mercy, this is how different and contradicting opinions can be all correct.

So for the laymen all these opinions are correct as a laymen accepts a genuine mujtahids ijtihad as sincere and valid and there is no way a laymen can know whether there is a mistake in it so all opinions of trustworthy mujtahids are as good as the others for the laymen. For the Mujtahid themselves one opinion is right and the contradicting one's are wrong as Allah has given them responsibility to follow their own understanding as they are qualified to judge and perform independent reasoning

Now regarding not reciting faatihsh behind imam, how will you as a laymen know that that is wrong? You do not have the full picture. To be able to judge yourself you need all the prerequisite knowledge of a Mujtahid scholar and you do not have that

Even if you assess all evidences that not reciting and reciting is based on, yet still this is not enough as you still do not have the insight into hadith authenticity or the sciences of the Arabic language etc etc thus in your judgement you would have left out other essential considerations.

All you would do is see what seems most acceptable or right to you based on some taqlid you will do of other scholars therefore you do not have the insight needed to really see for yourself which one is right or wrong. So the possibility of error in your judgement is great

There is ample evidence in Quran and hadith that taqlid (following of a mujtahid) is what non mujtahids should do, so therefore even if a Mujtahid did get it wrong, yet the follower gets no blame for that and his following of that opinion is right as he is only doing what Allah has commanded of him.

And from the hadith we know that even if a Mujtahid gets it wrong he is still rewarded with one qiraat.

So do you get this brother?, for imam Abu Hanifa (ra) to recite opinion would be wrong and his one is right and visa versa for other Imams, while all these opinions are all correct for the laymen as he has no way of knowing which is really wrong so he accepts them all. But he just adheres to one schools teachings as Quran says 'do not follow your desires' and cherry picking leads to following of desires.

Madhabis are the overwhelming majority of Muslims brother so this is why you too should have some faith in the majority of people in this religion you have converted to and at least read up properly on why they believe and follow what they do.

The Imams are just people who have codified the teachings of Rasulullah (,saw) into schools for us so following them Is following our Messenger Muhammad (saw)

format_quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi

In hanafi fiqh if you touch a woman your wuddoo doesn't break in shafi fiqh it does

Rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam is narrated to have kissed his wives before prayer so in this issue the hanafi position is stronger if I am a shafi and it becomes clear to me that this the stronger position but I say well the scholars of my madhab say otherwise so I am going to ignore the ahadith

I looked into this a bit deeper and I don't know whether the hanafi position is stronger. The shafi positition has two Quraan verses as daleel that it does.
The key word is "touching" in Arabic and what is meant by it.

The explanation went way beyond my ability to understand...but I do realize that Shafi's do have a certain position in this which should not be underestimated.

But again...I do not have the knowledge to decide on my own which is right and which is wrong...and because I follow the Hanafi madhab, I will stick to their rulings.

format_quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi

Anyway I can see this turning into an argument so I think I'll just stop replying

May Allah grant you all khair. Please remember me in your duas and forgive me for the sake of Allah if I offended any of you
Barak Allah fikkum

Yes, this is getting way too complicated for me anyways...so maybe we should just leave it here.
Thanks for your contribution and hopefully you will also forgive me if I somehow have offended you.

I think none of us meant to offend the other in this thread and it was all on behalf of having a good healthy discussion...but still just in case, I'm sorry.

format_quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi

You seem to be regurgitating propaganda about the madhabs from the ijtihad of contemporary madhab scholars which kind of makes your argument laughable because you are complaining about contemporary ijtihad when you are following what speakers of today have been saying when the earlier followers of the madhab did otherwise. Abu hanifa said if the hadith is authentic then that is my madhab. Why aren't you following his madhab in this

Let's address a few of your points

The madhabs are all correct. Uh no, you can't be simultaneously be in wuddoo and not in wuddoo at the same time. You cant be praying a Salah that's valid and not valid at the same time

There is consensus they are all correct. Again uh no. The bickering between the madhabs has been going on for centuries to the point some scholars fromthe hanafi and shafi madhabs applied the rulings of ahlul kitab to each other

Abu hanifa issued the ruling that small amounts of certain types of alcohol were permitted in small amounts as long as you didnt get drunk. His students changed this ruling after him. If he was infallible why did he get it wrong and why did his students change his ruling

Let me ask you a question am I sinful for not following a madhab? If so where is your daleel

I have no problem with people following a madhab but dont make it seem like its obligatory.

You follow Abu hanifa I will follow rasulullah sallaho alayhi wa sallam

Brother I can find you the evidences that these views are not just contemporary but also the earliest salaf held them too; some of the views such as only following the 4 madhabs is allowed, had to come later when the necessity arose, however since Islamic sources establishes that consensus is a decisive proof, then even later consensus' become part of Islam. Finding all these evidences is time consuming brother but they are all available in that link of online book I posted earlier.

About Abu Hanifa saying sahih hadith is my madhab and other statements indicating one should disregard what he says and go along with sahih hadith that contradicts his view, there is overwhelming proof that he said that to those competent for ijtihad and not to laymen. There are many other statements of his where laymen are urged to follow his and other mujtahids teachings. Again these evidences is in that link and I'll post it again at bottom of this post.

I've already explained how all madhabs are valid and it seems you couldn't grasp the understanding. There's nothing else I can say about it other than repeat myself so I'll request you read that again ... however there is 1 hadith I'd like to mention

Do you know about the hadith where 2 groups of sahaba (ra) differed over when to pray asr on their way to banu qurayzah?, later Prophet (saw) informed them that both groups were right. One group had infact prayed it after asr time had passed... so here we have an example where highly contradictory differences were approved

The madhabs were in conflict in the early days but the hadiths about consensus validated them all as eventually the consensus of Scholars as well as laymen accepted them

As mentioned earlier differences of opinions are allowed in Islam so it's only natural for Mujtahid scholars to sometimes disagree, and that's the beauty of Islam that Abu Hanifas students could disagree with him and assist in codifying a school of thought and it is still called following Abu Hanifa as the latter disagreers were HIS STUDENTS, so even their disagreement is attributed to the teacher.

There's no problem with his students disagreeing as I've been saying all along a madhab is the COLLECTIVE work of the original teacher AND his students

Well since you have put the question to me again br. I'll say yes I do think you are astray as that's what the consensus of the traditional ulema say and I've given you other reasons earlier too. I say this for your own good as this is a very serious matter. Infact the majority of the ulema hold the salafi's as a bidah group; one of the 72 groups outside ahlus sunnah, becsuse going against consensus violates aqeedah.

And regarding the obligation for non Mujtahid to follow one of the four madhabs, the following is from the majority of scholsrs' perspective too:

[Sidi Abdullah Ould Hajj Ibrahim] has said in his Maraqi as-Sa’ud:
“[taqlid] is necessary for other than the one who has achieved the rank of absolute ijtihad. Even if he is a limited [mujtahid] who is unable [to perform absolute ijtihad].”

Commenting on this line, [Sidi Abdullah] said in Nashru al-bunud,

“It means that taqlid is an obligation on anyone who is not an absolute mujtahid, even if he has achieved the limited rank of ijtihad muqayyad . . . [until he says], ‘And ask the people of the reminder, if you yourselves do not know.’”

He also said,

“[Regarding] the necessity of binding to a specific madhhab, the [scholars] have mentioned its obligation upon anyone falling short [of the conditions of ijtihad].”

He says in Nashru al-bunud,

“It means that it is incumbent for whoever falls short of achieving the rank of absolute ijtihad to follow a particular madhhab.”

Again, in Maraqi as-Sa’ud, Sidi Abdullah says,

“The consensus today is on the four, and all have prohibited following [any] others.”

He says in Nashru al-bunud,

“This means that the consensus of the scholars today is on the four schools of thought, and I mean by the schools of Malik, Abu Hanifa, Shafi’i and Ahmad. Indeed, all of the scholars have prohibited following any other school of an independent and absolute mujtahid since the eighth century when the school of Dawud adh-Dhahiri died out and until the 12th Century and all subsequent ones.”

In the chapter concerning inferential reasoning, from Maraqi as-sa’ud, [Sidi Abdullah] says,

“As for the one who is not a mujtahid, then basing his actions on primary textual evidence [Qur’an and hadith] is not permissible.”

He says in Nashru al-bunud,

“It means that it is prohibited for other than a mujtahid to base his actions upon a direct text from either the Book or the Sunna even if its transmission was sound because of the sheer likelihood of there being other considerations such as abrogation, limitations, specificity to certain situations, and other such matters that none but the mujtahid fully comprehends with precision. Thus, nothing can save him from Allah the Exalted excepted following a mujtahid

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mhfatwa.htm

Regarding who follows Rasulullsh (saw); do you just apply your own undetstandings to sahih hadiths as to how they change or fit into rulings or do you take guidance from the contemporary salafi scholars? I think it will be more of the latter than the former right?; in this case you are following bin baz and salih al Munajid and co, and in the case of the former, you are following your own laymen mind.

I suppose you can say I follow Abu Hanifa, and here's an explanation:

“Surely the following of our [rightly guided] Imams is not abandoning the Qur’anic verses or the sound hadiths; it is the very essence of adhering to them and taking our judgements from them. This is because the Qur’an has not come down to us except by means of these very Imams [who are more worthy of following] by virtue of being more knowledgeable than us in [the sciences of] the abrogating and abrogated, the absolute and the conditional, the equivocal and the clarifying, the probabilistic and the plain, the circumstances surrounding revelation and their various meanings, as well as their possible interpretations and various linguistic and philological considerations, [not to mention] the various other ancillary sciences [involved in understanding the Qur’an] needed.

“Also, they took all of that from the students of the companions (tabi’in) who received their instruction from the companions themselves, who received their instructions from the Lawgiver himself, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, divinely protected from every mistake, who bore witness that the first three generations of Muslims would be ones of virtue and righteousness. Furthermore, the prophetic traditions have also reached us through their means given that they were also more knowledgeable than us through their means given that they were also more knowledgeable than those who came after them concerning the rigorously authenticated (sahih), the well authenticated (hasan), and the weak (da’if) channels of transmission, as well as the marfu’u4, mursal5, mutawatir6, ahad7, mu’dal8 and gharib9 transmissions.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mhfatwa.htm

Anyway this topic is far too contentious br. So it's only left for me to 'bow out' gracefully with my parting words, Assalamualikum wr wb and may Allah (swt) guide us all

https://central-mosque.com/index.php...-a-madhab.html

Bump

Can a Hanafi marry a Shafi?

format_quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman

Can a Hanafi marry a Shafi?

Yes ofcourse no problem as they're aqeedah is the same, they just need to be tolerant of each others' differences which will be easy for them to do as they believe both madhabs are valid and part of ahlus sunnah

But if one spouse believes the other is commiting bidah and headed for jahannum then that's when an union will be incompatible, such as between a Salafi and a madhbi.

But even in the case of a marraige between Salafi and madhabi. Prudence and tolerance is required:

https://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/103052

PS: If a couple from these 2 madhabs (Hanafi and Shafi) find it difficult due to their differences then one or the other can change to their spouses madhab as such a change in that circumstance will be allowed...

What’s hanafi’s view on divorce by force? Let’s say I marry a Shafi girl and someone liked my wife and forced me on gun point to divorce her so that he can marry my wife. Will the divorce occur?
what is shafi’s view on divorce by force?

Please keep your answer simple and short.

@ eesa the kiwi
There are scholars who have issued fatwas on this ( hanafi can’t marry Shafi and vice versa) and we will soon see why.

Peace! Dear brothers!

I'd rather not carry on this discussion for it leads to arguments. I only bumped it as its related to the history of madhabs thread by Caplets

Chow

So far what I have seen is that brother Ahmed picks and chooses what fits his narrative. For example on the topic of celebrating Mawlid, I gave him opinion of Hanafi scholars who he often quote such as Mufti Taqi Usmani and they prohibit the celebration of Mawlid but because their fatwas did not go with his narrative, he rejected opinion of scholars of his own madhab. I only wish if he can have such an open mind in general, taking Quran and Sunnah as the only source of authentic knowledge and compare opinion of scholars against Quran and Sunnah.
Anyways hopefully this time around we will come to a reasonable conclusion on this debate.