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  1. #1
    H.M's Avatar
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    Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

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    I live in Norway and see how people are treated. No one ever starvs here. Everyone has rights. Children, old people etc. Transparent government where corruption on large scale becomes extremely difficult. Politicians, no matter what rank is prosecuted if there is a reason to do so. People are in general kind to eachother.

    In Muslim countries its the opposite. Maybe Im wrong....

    I hope you get my point. What are your thoughts on this?

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    Ahmed.'s Avatar
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    Re: Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    But Norway allows blasphemy against Islam and Prophet Muhammad (saw) and a few? cartoonists and film makers have done that I believe, so this evil overshadows any good it has by far

    Muslims aren't perfect but at least they stay away from the greatest of all evils
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    H.M's Avatar
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    Re: Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed. View Post
    But Norway allows blasphemy against Islam and Prophet Muhammad (saw) and a few? cartoonists and film makers have done that I believe, so this evil overshadows any good it has by far

    Muslims aren't perfect but at least they stay away from the greatest of all evils
    I agree with you on that of course. Norway did allow this. But in regards of taking care of their people and in regards to corruption compared to Muslim countrys....Norway is not a land of Muslims. But Muslim countries are a land of Muslims and should take care of eachother just like the kafirins does for eachother.... Am I making any sense?

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    Ahmed.'s Avatar
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    Re: Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by H.M View Post
    I agree with you on that of course. Norway did allow this. But in regards of taking care of their people and in regards to corruption compared to Muslim countrys....Norway is not a land of Muslims. But Muslim countries are a land of Muslims and should take care of eachother just like the kafirins does for eachother.... Am I making any sense?

    Almost all the western countries are like Norway and that's because the West has in a very evil and oppressive way taken control of money making... they make and give themselves however much they want (they make money out of nothing, many YouTube videos about this have a look) so with an unlimited amount of money they can go about creating a utopia for themselves...

    Some Arab countries ofcourse have lots of money but it is based on oil and not unlimited hence the greedy ruling elite are busy filling their own pockets

    UAE that has reached a secure financial future for itself is in the process of creating a very just and prosperous society.

    Yes Muslims should take care of each other the same, however take away the money from the West and you'll see how oppressive towards it's own people it becomes

    We can't really judge both groups on the same level when the 'playing fields' are not equal
    Last edited by Ahmed.; 4 Days Ago at 02:01 PM.

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    M.I.A.'s Avatar
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    Re: Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed. View Post
    But Norway allows blasphemy against Islam and Prophet Muhammad (saw) and a few? cartoonists and film makers have done that I believe, so this evil overshadows any good it has by far

    Muslims aren't perfect but at least they stay away from the greatest of all evils

    That's a horrible understanding of it. No offence but you keep yourself in ignorance and it is either by deception or genuine ignorance.

    Basically as a muslim you would... probably be allowed to live in Norway, or would have been allowed at some point in the past..

    So they dont hate you or actively conspire to be your enemies.. and blashpemers.

    And your freedom of speech would have the same protection as biased cartoonists..

    And you would have fairly been able to put forward into norway and the world.. your creative influences..

    With whatever intent and thought you had given them.
    ..
    ..
    ..
    ...And then the people of Norway would have come and blown you up.

    No, that last part would probably not have happened.


    And is that because non muslims are cleverer than muslims?

    Is it.. and really think about this.. that muslims are persecuted in western countries, with regards to personal rights?

    Not really, I mean anti islamic cartoons are an open invitation.. for rebuttal, discourse, affecting change, pushing public boundaries, reinforcing character..

    Changing the narrative.. by simply responding.

    Unfortunately, muslims are a bit naff at understanding what bait is.


    Dont blame the west, dont bother to point a finger at someone else as an argument for why things are not any better in muslim countries.

    The west by definition and by thread context, is non Muslim..

    But they have been around just as long as anyone else.


    By all accounts "muslims" should be kicking ass in times of such low morality and aversion to god..

    But for some reason the understanding is not there..

    So hows the day by day ruler treating you?

    Honestly I dont care how you reply, its probably nothing nice anyway.

    Maybe go try telling the people your here with instead.
    Last edited by M.I.A.; 4 Days Ago at 03:57 PM.

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    keiv's Avatar
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    Re: Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    I live in the US and there are people here who are starving, not everybody here has the same rights, government is not transparent, I’d say the majority of them are corrupt, and people’s attitudes towards each other is volatile and unpredictable, at least in my state. So while it may be peachy where you live, Norway should not be representative of how all non Muslim countries are. There are plenty of examples all over the world of bad places to be in.

    Also, when you’re referring to Muslim countries, is there a specific country you’re talking about or are you basically generalizing and stating any Muslim majority country?

    Overall, I think there’s a pretty simple explanation. Compare the deen of the early Muslim rulers to the Muslim rulers of today and the overall state of the ummah as a whole. As an example of the state that we’re in, Saudi wanted to pay Nicki Minaj 7 figures to go perform there and from what I understand, tickets were sold out... Ironically, SHE decided to cancel because of moral issues Quite an embarrassment for us huh? Not only was it wrong on the governments part, but also the fact that the show was sold out which mean Muslims there were willing to pay to see her perform. It’s disturbing to say the least.
    Last edited by keiv; 4 Days Ago at 04:40 PM.
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    Ahmed.'s Avatar
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    Re: Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by M.I.A. View Post
    That's a horrible understanding of it. No offence but you keep yourself in ignorance and it is either by deception or genuine ignorance.

    Basically as a muslim you would... probably be allowed to live in Norway, or would have been allowed at some point in the past..

    So they dont hate you or actively conspire to be your enemies.. and blashpemers.

    And your freedom of speech would have the same protection as biased cartoonists..

    And you would have fairly been able to put forward into norway and the world.. your creative influences..

    With whatever intent and thought you had given them.
    ..
    ..
    ..
    ...And then the people of Norway would have come and blown you up.

    No, that last part would probably not have happened.


    And is that because non muslims are cleverer than muslims?

    Is it.. and really think about this.. that muslims are persecuted in western countries, with regards to personal rights?

    Not really, I mean anti islamic cartoons are an open invitation.. for rebuttal, discourse, affecting change, pushing public boundaries, reinforcing character..

    Changing the narrative.. by simply responding.

    Unfortunately, muslims are a bit naff at understanding what bait is.


    Dont blame the west, dont bother to point a finger at someone else as an argument for why things are not any better in muslim countries.

    The west by definition and by thread context, is non Muslim..

    But they have been around just as long as anyone else.


    By all accounts "muslims" should be kicking ass in times of such low morality and aversion to god..

    But for some reason the understanding is not there..

    So hows the day by day ruler treating you?

    Honestly I dont care how you reply, its probably nothing nice anyway.

    Maybe go try telling the people your here with instead.
    If you compare a country to Islam then that's the understanding Allah gives us in the Quran, I.e. no matter how 'good' you may be, the evil of shirk overshadows it all and you will only be fit for hellfire in afterlife (blasphemy is tantamount to shirk).

    And no matter how bad Muslims may be, avoidance of shirk will one day achieve them salvation

    So those principles are a yardstick to measuring and judging Muslim and kuffar societies bro
    Last edited by Ahmed.; 4 Days Ago at 05:16 PM.

  10. #8
    CuriousonTruth's Avatar
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    Re: Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by H.M View Post
    I live in Norway and see how people are treated. No one ever starvs here. Everyone has rights. Children, old people etc. Transparent government where corruption on large scale becomes extremely difficult. Politicians, no matter what rank is prosecuted if there is a reason to do so. People are in general kind to eachother.

    In Muslim countries its the opposite. Maybe Im wrong....

    I hope you get my point. What are your thoughts on this?
    Complete nonsense. Norway is a wealthy country with a complete welfare system, a massive treasury, an oil rich.

    Most muslim countries are in transition phase, doing everything we can to survive the Western attacks on our religion. Nearly every nationalist religious leaders in muslim countries have been deposed except for Erdogan and Mahathir Mohammed.

    And the West installs rulers like Al-Sisi who will do their biddings.

    As for corruption, in USA all the politicians are funded by rich companies to safekeep their interest, anywhere else that is corruption but they call it donor money.

    - - - Updated - - -

    MIA Norway is a NATO country with active personnel in Afghanistan. Thats quite enough of you defending them. And if you can't understand basic geopolitics and that the WESTERN WORLD IS AT WAR AGAINST ISLAM, then you should frankly do some research, instead of talking nonsense.
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  11. #9
    M.I.A.'s Avatar
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    Re: Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed. View Post
    If you compare a country to Islam then that's the understanding Allah gives us in the Quran, I.e. no matter how 'good' you may be, the evil of shirk overshadows it all and you will only be fit for hellfire in afterlife (blasphemy is tantamount to shirk).

    And no matter how bad Muslims may be, avoidance of shirk will one day achieve them salvation

    So those principles are a yardstick to measuring and judging Muslim and kuffar societies bro
    By the standards of the prophet pbuh.

    His lands were pagan lands.

    Although granted, none changes the hearts of the people except Allah swt.

    You see, just because I called you thick doesn't mean you have to act smart.

    But yes, I know exactly how you feel..

    Shirk.

    O_O if I had to hear you talk for me I would utterly despise it.

    ...probably.

    Quran 49:

    The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

    ..he really liked em apparently, great people.. super people.

    Again, I just have to say it's great that your answer just kicks ass in all truthfulness.. you probably cut a huge path in the day to day for people to follow.. too big for the room even.

    Shirk.

    It's not even as clear cut as an oscar on a mantelpiece..

    Coin for them a similitude: Two men, unto one of whom We had assigned two gardens of grapes, and We had surrounded both with date-palms and had put between them tillage.

    Each of the gardens gave its fruit and withheld naught thereof. And We caused a river to gush forth therein.

    (Abundant) was the produce this man had: he said to his companion, in the course of a mutual argument: "more wealth have I than you, and more honour and power in (my following of) men."




    And he entered his garden while he was unjust to himself. He said, "I do not think that this will perish - ever.




    I think not that the Hour will ever come, and if indeed I am brought back unto my Lord I surely shall find better than this as a resort.

    His comrade, when he (thus) spake with him, exclaimed: Disbelievest thou in Him Who created thee of dust, then of a drop (of seed), and then fashioned thee a man?

    But He is Allah, my Lord, and I ascribe unto my Lord no partner.





    And why did you, when you entered your garden, not say, 'What Allah willed [has occurred]; there is no power except in Allah '? Although you see me less than you in wealth and children,




    Yet it may be that my Lord will give me better than thy garden, and will send on it a bolt from heaven, and some morning it will be a smooth hillside,

    Or some morning the water thereof will be lost in the earth so that thou canst not make search for it.

    So his fruits (and enjoyment) were encompassed (with ruin), and he remained twisting and turning his hands over what he had spent on his property, which had (now) tumbled to pieces to its very foundations, and he could only say, "Woe is me! Would I had never ascribed partners to my Lord and Cherisher!"

    And there was for him no company to aid him other than Allah, nor could he defend himself.


    ...now, it's just a tale of two simple farmers.

    But this is how I see you people, for all the integrity and sincerity you speak with..

    So I have to try extra hard not to let your tongue slip.

    And the west are well accustomed too.
    Last edited by M.I.A.; 4 Days Ago at 05:47 PM.

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    anatolian's Avatar
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    Re: Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    Scandinavian countries and Canada are quite Islamic within their borders in terms of socio-economic life. They behave towards their citizents how an ideal Islamic state should behave. Ofcourse they dont apply Sharia consciously.
    Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    “Either seem as you are or be as you seem” Rumi

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    Re: Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by H.M View Post
    In Muslim countries its the opposite. Maybe Im wrong....

    I hope you get my point. What are your thoughts on this?
    It does not matter. The Pre-Islamic Arabia also had good qualities. They were famous for bravery, chivalry, hospitality, vocal, poetic, skilled merchandise and also they had tribal code of honor etc etc but they were non believers and idolaters. Which means that intellectually they were far more behind the realities. Same is the condition of today's Westerns and Scandinavians etc.
    As for the Muslim countries are concerned, their governments are implanted by the West to serve their interests instead of serving and striving for Islam (Egypt's Mursi , Iran and Afghanistan are examples where they created problems because these countries were adopting Islamic systems). Look around the Muslim world, every government is implanted by the West. These so called Muslim rulers never enforce the genuine Islamic system in the country, rather they are trying to promote so called modernization in the name of democracies. secondly, the Scandinavian countries and the West have adopted the "system of justice" and the old age benevolent funds that of Umar bin Khitab ( رضی اللہ عنہ). They have hijacked the social "System" of Islam while preaching us the benefits of capitalism and pseudo democracy. These Westerns are cunning and treacherous, they will never allow Islamic systems to be enforced in any Muslim country. Today, they are surviving and praised because they have adopted the socio- economic systems of Islam, while their hearts and minds are full of bigotry, enmity and dirt. And don't forget the crime rate is also highest in the West, specially in United States. They are just the well dressed devils.
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  15. #12
    H.M's Avatar
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    Re: Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    Scandinavian countries and Canada are quite Islamic within their borders in terms of socio-economic life. They behave towards their citizents how an ideal Islamic state should behave. Ofcourse they dont apply Sharia consciously.
    Thank you @anatolian . You got my point. I must say. Some of these answers I got here on this topic did not suprise me at all. Its all the westes fault right @Ahmed ?... The fingers should be pointed back to us!. Its our own fault our ummah has fallen to the western countries.

    Wallahi the west has made us dependent on them.

    Im talking about majoraty muslim countries like for example UAE. Instead of paying Nicky whatever 7 figures, why not use that 7 figures to help neighbouring muslim countries?

    Wallahi the oil money is the peoples money, not the politicians. Norway is a good example of this where politicians aren't able to put the oil money in their pockets.

    Norway; kafirs or not, Allah s.w.t. sais in the holy Qur'an:

    8:73
    And those who disbelieved are allies of one another. If you do not do so, there will be fitnah on earth and great corruption.

    We don't do so, judging by the way the Muslim ummah has turned out.

    Come on brothers and sisters. Am I that far off???

  16. #13
    Physicist's Avatar
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    Re: Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    There are ups and downs in all civilizations.
    Lastly Europe managed to put forth moral values, but those values not well rooted and able to deteriorate or be manipulated by propaganda. Consider same-sex marriage issues, nationalism and etc.
    Due to the period of well being government have got too much trust, expanded it's influence into nonspecific areas, excessively bureaucratized and developped new forms of corruption. Consider yellow jackets in France, people are really unhappy where it is heading now.

    Neither I'm saying that muslim-majority countries are doing well. But that mostly because they don't really follow Islamic values, there is a lot of hypocrisy among those who struggle for power.

  17. #14
    H.M's Avatar
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    Re: Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Physicist View Post
    There are ups and downs in all civilizations.
    Lastly Europe managed to put forth moral values, but those values not well rooted and able to deteriorate or be manipulated by propaganda. Consider same-sex marriage issues, nationalism and etc.
    Due to the period of well being government have got too much trust, expanded it's influence into nonspecific areas, excessively bureaucratized and developped new forms of corruption. Consider yellow jackets in France, people are really unhappy where it is heading now.

    Neither I'm saying that muslim-majority countries are doing well. But that mostly because they don't really follow Islamic values, there is a lot of hypocrisy among those who struggle for power.
    Well said brother.
    If only the government of Muslim countries had followed Islamic ethics and values.

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    eesa the kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    Thread locked temporarily
    Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    Imagine sleeping without praying isha and then waking up in your grave- bilal Phillips

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    Re: Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    Thread re opened
    Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    Imagine sleeping without praying isha and then waking up in your grave- bilal Phillips

  21. #17
    Ahmed.'s Avatar
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    Re: Islam but no Muslims - Muslims but no Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by M.I.A. View Post
    By the standards of the prophet pbuh.

    His lands were pagan lands.

    Although granted, none changes the hearts of the people except Allah swt.

    You see, just because I called you thick doesn't mean you have to act smart.

    But yes, I know exactly how you feel..

    Shirk.

    O_O if I had to hear you talk for me I would utterly despise it.

    ...probably.

    Quran 49:

    The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

    ..he really liked em apparently, great people.. super people.

    Again, I just have to say it's great that your answer just kicks ass in all truthfulness.. you probably cut a huge path in the day to day for people to follow.. too big for the room even.

    Shirk.

    It's not even as clear cut as an oscar on a mantelpiece..

    Coin for them a similitude: Two men, unto one of whom We had assigned two gardens of grapes, and We had surrounded both with date-palms and had put between them tillage.

    Each of the gardens gave its fruit and withheld naught thereof. And We caused a river to gush forth therein.

    (Abundant) was the produce this man had: he said to his companion, in the course of a mutual argument: "more wealth have I than you, and more honour and power in (my following of) men."




    And he entered his garden while he was unjust to himself. He said, "I do not think that this will perish - ever.




    I think not that the Hour will ever come, and if indeed I am brought back unto my Lord I surely shall find better than this as a resort.

    His comrade, when he (thus) spake with him, exclaimed: Disbelievest thou in Him Who created thee of dust, then of a drop (of seed), and then fashioned thee a man?

    But He is Allah, my Lord, and I ascribe unto my Lord no partner.





    And why did you, when you entered your garden, not say, 'What Allah willed [has occurred]; there is no power except in Allah '? Although you see me less than you in wealth and children,




    Yet it may be that my Lord will give me better than thy garden, and will send on it a bolt from heaven, and some morning it will be a smooth hillside,

    Or some morning the water thereof will be lost in the earth so that thou canst not make search for it.

    So his fruits (and enjoyment) were encompassed (with ruin), and he remained twisting and turning his hands over what he had spent on his property, which had (now) tumbled to pieces to its very foundations, and he could only say, "Woe is me! Would I had never ascribed partners to my Lord and Cherisher!"

    And there was for him no company to aid him other than Allah, nor could he defend himself.


    ...now, it's just a tale of two simple farmers.

    But this is how I see you people, for all the integrity and sincerity you speak with..

    So I have to try extra hard not to let your tongue slip.

    And the west are well accustomed too.
    There's a very clear cut definition in Islam of shirk so I don't know what Islam you're learning from but it doesn't seem to be the mainstream Sunni Islam. Yeah modernist will tell you the kuffar are believers but not any Muslims

    That's the only bit I've been able to glean from your post that you're saying kufr is not shirk and the rest of your post will take me some mental gymnastics to understand bro but I don't even want to go to your eccentric world so I'd rather not

    Pot calling the kettle black?, I'm thick? while you're well out there bro I suggest you read this definition of shirk from ahlus sunnah Shafiee scholar Shaykh Nuh Keller:

    persist in associating others with Allah, either by actually worshipping another, or by rejecting the laws brought by His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace), which associates their own customs with His prerogative to be worshipped as He directs. Such people have violated God's rights, and have accepted to go to hell, which is precisely what His messengers have warned them of, so they have no excuse:

    "Truly, Allah does not forgive that any be associated with Him; but He forgives what is less than that to whomever He wills" (Qur'an 4:48).

    http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/amat.htm


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