Hadeeth about dua that can change Qadr

WaAlaikum Assalam WaRahmatullhi WaBarakatuhu Akhi,

Hope you are doing well. Please see video below and I hope this would help you understand the Hadith in question:

Jazakallah khair for asking this question.
Ma’aSalaam

To put it in simple words, the decreed result is preordained along with its proper means, which lead to its occurrence. One of these means is the supplication.

It is not preordained just like that, without any means (leading to its occurrence), rather it is preordained along with its proper means (which will ensure its occurrence).

So when a person comes across the means, the decreed matter will come to pass. And if he does not come across those means, the decreed matter is denied.

For example, satisfying one’s appetite and quenching one’s thirst are preordained with (the means of) eating and drinking. Children are preordained with (the means of) sexual intercourse. Harvesting crops is preordained with (the means of) planting and, the withdrawal of the soul from an animal is decreed with slaughter. Likewise, entrance into Paradise is preordained with (good) deeds, while entrance into the Hellfire is preordained with (bad) deeds. These are similar examples you used few days ago in another thread. I hope this helps to understand that dua is sometime also a means for the occurrence of something.

And Allah knows the best!
Ma'aSalaam

format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah

WaAlaikum Assalam WaRahmatullhi WaBarakatuhu Akhi,

Hope you are doing well. Please see video below and I hope this would help you understand the Hadith in question:

Jazakallah khair for asking this question.
Ma’aSalaam

thank you very much for your post brother but unfortunately it didn't really answer my question and this is why:

so there are 2 types of qadr:
1...this type is written 50.000 years before all creation and cannot be changed.
2...this type is a yearly qadr that can be altered depending on how you live.

lets take the example he mwntioned in the video of the person who supposed to live 60 years but got his lifespan extended with 5 more years.

in type 1 qadr it is written that he will live for 60 years but because he is a good servant he get to live 5 more years.

in type 2 qadr it is written that he will die this year at age 60...but this year the person was a really good servant...he did a lot of dua so he hets to live for 5 more years.

so...if you look at this...did his qadr really change?
qadr type 1 proofs it didn't...Allah allready knew that this person would make lots of dua in 2020 and that his lifespan would be extended with 5 more years...so actually nothing changed.

I hope you understand what I mean.

or...

I think the actual message here is that you can steer your qadr partially with your actions...decisions and duas...but Allah is all knowing so He already knows in detail in which direction you will steer your qadr to.
so you can change your qadr but at the same time you cant.
it is something like in quantum mechanics
the particle is there but at the same time not there...both are true untill you look at it exactly at time X.
that would make sense...

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

thank you very much for your post brother but unfortunately it didn't really answer my question and this is why:

so there are 2 types of qadr:
1...this type is written 50.000 years before all creation and cannot be changed.
2...this type is a yearly qadr that can be altered depending on how you live.

lets take the example he mwntioned in the video of the person who supposed to live 60 years but got his lifespan extended with 5 more years.

in type 1 qadr it is written that he will live for 60 years but because he is a good servant he get to live 5 more years.

in type 2 qadr it is written that he will die this year at age 60...but this year the person was a really good servant...he did a lot of dua so he hets to live for 5 more years.

so...if you look at this...did his qadr really change?
qadr type 1 proofs it didn't...Allah allready knew that this person would make lots of dua in 2020 and that his lifespan would be extended with 5 more years...so actually nothing changed.

I hope you understand what I mean.

or...

I think the actual message here is that you can steer your qadr partially with your actions...decisions and duas...but Allah is all knowing so He already knows in detail in which direction you will steer your qadr to.
so you can change your qadr but at the same time you cant.
it is something like in quantum mechanics
the particle is there but at the same time not there...both are true untill you look at it exactly at time X.
that would make sense...

Listen to him again especially from 2:00 till 2:30, where he says ( paraphrasing) that this was already written in preserved tablet that so and so was supposed to live 60 years but because he will treat his relatives well, his life span will be increased for 5 more years.

I think you have a valid point. This is what bothers me as well. Like how Abdullah has given examples of children etc. Wouldn't it be pre-written that the person will have sexual intercourse or not? It is really mind boggling. And there are certain things that are beyond the human mind. The thing is we need to make dua constantly. I read a story about Moosa, where a woman came to him and requested him to ask Allah to grant her a child. Moosa went to Allah and requested on the woman's behalf. But Allah told Moosa that it has been decreed that she won't have a child. Few weeks later the woman again came to Moosa and asked him to request Allah to grant her a child, which moosa did, and Allah responded in the same way. A few weeks later the same thing happened. This time Allah told Moosa that it has been decreed that she is barren and would never have a child.

A few years later Moosa met the woman in the market place, with a child. He inquired and the woman told her that Allah granted her with a son. Astounded, Moosa went to Allah and asked about the matter. So Allah responded, "she made so much dua, that it exceeded my will, so I changed what i had decreed.''
So we really don't know what will happen and what God has decreed us.
This is where free-will comes into play. Allah knows that this person would either choose path A, or B. But we don't. Because we have satan with us as well, who might lure us to do wrong. AT this point Allah does not interfere and let the man make his decision. And Allah knows that what lies ahead path A and path B

You can understand it with a simple analogy. When you go to a store, the parents are aware that e.g certain toy is your favorite, but still they don't purchase it for you. If you have been an obedient child, and at your best behavior, and then ask your parents for the toy, perhaps then they might purchase it for you, even though they knew beforehand that you like the toy. Parents are still waiting for you to ask them. I guess to a certain extent Allah also does the same with us. He knows we want something, but is waiting for us to ask Him.



However, i also believe that dua is just Allah's way of keeping us hopeful. If we didn't have dua, we would lose hope in everything. So He might have us believe that dua might change qadr, but in reality, everything has already been written.

But it is really depressing when we try to understand such things. We have examples of prophets who made dua, and against all odds Allah granted it to them. But then wasn't it already decreed that those prophets would make dua :/
then we have the concept of evil-eye. Wouldn't it already be written that evil eye would affect a person's health etc. These things don't add up. and We cant question them either.

format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah

Listen to him again especially from 2:00 till 2:30, where he says ( paraphrasing) that this was already written in preserved tablet that so and so was supposed to live 60 years but because he will treat his relatives well, his life span will be increased for 5 more years.

I know...that is exactly why I said:

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

so...if you look at this...did his qadr really change?
qadr type 1 proofs it didn't...Allah allready knew that this person would make lots of dua in 2020 and that his lifespan would be extended with 5 more years...so actually nothing changed.

I hope you understand what I mean.

in other words:

So he is basically saying that qadr nr 2 is actually included in qadr nr 1...this means that if qadr nr 1 cannot be changed...then the change in qadr nr 2 is not really a change is it? it is a meant-to-be-change.

It is like Schrödingers cat...the cat in the box is alive or dead...both can be true...depending when you look in the box.

But I think the message in this hadeeth is to make you understand two things:
1. your qadr is litterally dependant on your actions and duas...to get the things written in your qadr, you have to work for it...if you do not work for it, you will not get it.

2. The absolute undeniable fact that Allah already knows beforehand whether you will work for it or not leads to knowing and writing your unchangable qadr 50.000 years before all creation.

So this hadeeth basically teaches people to avoid saying "if it is written in my qadr I will get it anyways, so I do not have to work for it". That is not true.

I think similar questions were asked in another thread. Not sure if you get a chance to look at my replies to that thread today:
link is below with more detailed explanation:
Im confused about a few things

Im confused about a few things Salam alaikum I dont want to spread fitnah or cause doubt with this post,if it is so then please a mod delete it immediately.There are some things i ha...

@wayfarer
Selamun aleykum sister. do you have a source for this story?

format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

I read a story about Moosa, where a woman came to him and requested him to ask Allah to grant her a child. Moosa went to Allah and requested on the woman's behalf. But Allah told Moosa that it has been decreed that she won't have a child. Few weeks later the woman again came to Moosa and asked him to request Allah to grant her a child, which moosa did, and Allah responded in the same way. A few weeks later the same thing happened. This time Allah told Moosa that it has been decreed that she is barren and would never have a child.

A few years later Moosa met the woman in the market place, with a child. He inquired and the woman told her that Allah granted her with a son. Astounded, Moosa went to Allah and asked about the matter. So Allah responded, "she made so much dua, that it exceeded my will, so I changed what i had decreed.''

Because if this story is really true...that would mean that Qadr nr 1 is also changable? Then Allah can make a change against something He has seen beforehand somehow...then this subject would be even more complex.

I did, but i read it so long ago that i can't even remember the name of the book i read it in.
and does it not relate to story of Zacharaya.? His wife was barren. When he made dua to Allah he sd that my bones are weak, my wife barren but i ask You to grant me a child. In a way, was Zacharaya also not asking allah to change His decree?

format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

I did, but i read it so long ago that i can't even remember the name of the book i read it in.
and does it not relate to story of Zacharaya.? His wife was barren. When he made dua to Allah he sd that my bones are weak, my wife barren but i ask You to grant me a child. In a way, was Zacharaya also not asking allah to change His decree?

In a way yes...but still the first story you had appearantly Allah answers litterally that his decree is changing because he made su much dua. about Zacharaya, Zacharaya doesn't know his decree...so he doesn't know whether his decree is changed or not...that is why story nr 1 is much more powerfull...if you could find any source.

format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

I think qadr one relates to number of male/female children.
It's like this
you will die: Qada (the first type of destiny)
You will die as a muslim (2nd type of destiny)

That is not how it is explained in the video shared by brother Abdullah.
According to that video (also how I believe) is that Qadr nr 2 somehow is included in Qadr nr 1.

format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

No one can evade death. it will hunt u down no matter where u are. but there are people who are born as muslims, die as atheists etc. Similarly, we need to ask Allah in way He should be asked. Mufti Menk shared a story, where a neurosurgeon's plane crashed in Pakistan in a highly rural area, and as it turned out there was a woman praying to Allah for a doc as her son/grandson had neurological problem, She couldn't afford to take him to a doc, so Allah dragged the top neurosurgeon to her door, and he offered to treat the sick child.

yes I understand but, the difficult part here is that we still do not know the boy or the neurosurgeons decree...so we do not know whether it is changed or not.

format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

A part of our faith requires us to believe in the Ghaib. If we keep digging about Qadr then we might stray away. like evil eye and its relation with Qadr.

I DO believe in the Ghaib...I just want to understand it...about that straying away, I think if you keep realizing that you are digging for answers to understand your religion better...and not because you are questioning your religion...you will turn out closer to your religion...but if you are questioning your religion in the first place...and you find answers that lead to bigger questioning of your religion...then you are absolutely right and it will lead you to stray away.

format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

___________


Satan also tries his level best to lead us astray. I think that's the colliding power with our qadr, Allah did give him enough power and authority.


______

I read somewhere that Allah does not give us a wish,without the power of making it come true. The power is effort and dua. I have seen people recover from such ailments when even the docs said there is nothing they could do, except for ask Allah. And considering example of Pakistan with their corona-virus fiasco, the people relied mostly on dua and it got resolved. Lol,




____________


Then there is this concept of nature of a person. We say nature cannot be changed. I have an abusive father, and it is his nature. We have tried our level best, even made dua to change him, to have Allah knock some sense into him, but nope. At 83 he is more abusive than ever. It was my mother's decree to have an abusive husband, and mine to have a terrible, lazy father. So i think in the unchangebale tablet Allah had written about a person's nature, personality as well. and according to tht tablet Allah made the 2nd type of decree

My mother cuold have left my father, knowing his nature cannot be changed, but she never made any effort. Social pressure, and her inability to act properly ruined our lives as well. It was already decreed that my father is abusive. It wasn't decreed how my mother would deal with him.


-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Remember me in your duas.

But we have enough cases where the personality of a person through the years...when something dramatically changes...or some person was nearly killed...or some pyschical change in the brains...those people can change their personality...enough cases about that...or when people realize that they are getting old...also quite often leads to change of personality.

My grandpa had a total different personality when he was fit...one summer he was in vacation in Turkey...it was hotter than he could handle...and he got sick...and right after that he started to have problems with his knees etc...you could exactly pipoint the moment that he felt himself old and this changed his whole personality. actually nothing dramatic...but still from one day into the other...this guy felt himself suddenly old.

Yeah, I will search for that book or story reference because it has been bothering me as well.

-------
Also, I think it is understood that if a woman is barren, in her 80s, and the guy is in his 80s, they won't have a child. It is decreed by Allah that after 40-50 years, a woman would not birth a child. So if Zacharaya prayed for a child, despite having the understanding that it is impossible, it means he was asking Allah to change His decree. Get it?

And Zacharaya made dua, after he saw that Mariyam was surrounded with unseasonal and seasonal fruit. He asked her where she got it from, and she responded that I ask Allah and He provides it to me. At that point it occured to Zacharaya that I should make dua, perhaps Allah will grant it as well. So it was decreed that if he made dua, Allah will grant him a child.

But that's where our confusion arises. Did God not know that Zacharaya will make dua? This is the bone of contention i guess.


______
There is a difference in personality, and nature. People can have multiple personalities. You are different with your friends, with your parents, with your siblings. But your nature remains the same. They would know you are a calm person, regardless of the situation. MY father is respectful with his family, with the neighbors etc, but everyone knows he is short tempered and can snap at any instant. He is rude to the helpers, who also know that he is short tempered. My father is kind to his grand children, but they also stay away fearing his nature: anger!

______________--
But my confusion about evil eye and decree is also getting to me :/

format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

Yeah, I will search for that book or story reference because it has been bothering me as well.

Thank you very much. I will be interested

format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

-------
Also, I think it is understood that if a woman is barren, in her 80s, and the guy is in his 80s, they won't have a child. It is decreed by Allah that after 40-50 years, a woman would not birth a child. So if Zacharaya prayed for a child, despite having the understanding that it is impossible, it means he was asking Allah to change His decree. Get it?

Yes now I understand what you mean, but still I do not think it is just as strong as the first story because:
1 you do not know what was written in the original decree and whether it is changed or not.
2 Allah can perform miracles...and maybe this miracle was already written in the original decree.

The story of Isa as for instance...being born from a virgin mother is impossible...but it was Isa as's decree to have no biological father...did he make dua for that? no...it was just his decree, even though it was impossible.

format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

And Zacharaya made dua, after he saw that Mariyam was surrounded with unseasonal and seasonal fruit. He asked her where she got it from, and she responded that I ask Allah and He provides it to me. At that point it occured to Zacharaya that I should make dua, perhaps Allah will grant it as well. So it was decreed that if he made dua, Allah will grant him a child.

But that's where our confusion arises. Did God not know that Zacharaya will make dua? This is the bone of contention i guess.


______
There is a difference in personality, and nature. People can have multiple personalities. You are different with your friends, with your parents, with your siblings. But your nature remains the same. They would know you are a calm person, regardless of the situation. MY father is respectful with his family, with the neighbors etc, but everyone knows he is short tempered and can snap at any instant. He is rude to the helpers, who also know that he is short tempered. My father is kind to his grand children, but they also stay away fearing his nature: anger!

yes you are right...Here I got a little confused. thanks for correcting me.

format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

______________--
But my confusion about evil eye and decree is also getting to me :/

format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

True, but Mariyam asking for such fruit that is not seasonal is also the outcome of dua. Also, mariyam didn't know it was decreed for her to have a child despite being a virgin, until Jibraeel told her so.
Also with the case of Zacharya, again my point that a normal person would believe that making such a dua is useless because it is a fact of science that after a certain age, women cannot give birth. Mostly, people stop having intercourse after their 60s even.


But the truth is, we cannot understand Allah's authority and power over us. We think with human minds. The other day i was watching a video, where the scholar was addressing the question about tahjud . A person had asked that it is always night time somewhere in the world, then how does Allah come down considering He might be in the lowest sky some where else in the world at any time.
So the scholar responded that we can't comprehend Allah. His capacity is beyond our understanding, and human mind cannot figure it out. We think of Allah according to humanistic abilities. We try to analogize His love for us. e.g the common saying of God loving us 70 times more than a mother. , or my earlier example about the toy.

Of course I am aeare of this...and I never attempt to try to understand such things because I know I cant.
like the example that everything even rocks trees and mountains prostate in front of Allah. we cannot observe that...we have to believe.

format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

We need to know Allah gave us certain characteristics. He knows what we will do. He also knows wht shatan will do. We just need to have Hope in Allah.

_____

I know a woman with very beautiful voice, and she always wanted to be a singer. But when she was young, just for fun she got her hand read by those palmist, who told her she would never be a successful singer. After that, she never made any effort to sing, or make a career in singing, and usually remained poverty stricken. This is where our faith in Allah plays. Had she relied on Allah, made dua, and put in effort, Allah might have given her a successful career in singing >.

that is her own fault...she should have knows better than believing in such garbage.

format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

Questions about qadr, dua, hope only instill repercussions about religion. make dua with the conviction that Allah will grant you the thing. And I think it is the conviction that is decreed by allah and tht is the real test


___________

I listened to NAK''s lecture a few days ago where he gives the example of him giving his son a screw driver, and a screw to tighten. So the kid starts asking what kind of screw driver it is, does it have deteriorating value, , when did you buy it, etc. So NAK said that the child was more inclined about asking irrelevant questions.
Similarly, he said that we as humans have neglected the knowledge that has been given to us, and more inclined towards knowing what He hasn't told us. So, if there is the hadith where The Prophet sAWW says dua can change qadr, obviously, Allah gave him the understanding that led him to say this. We need to be focused on the given knowledge. Yes, dua can change qadr.Some call it miracles. some call it qadr.and some His blessings.
NAK's lecture reminded me of the instance of the Yahoodi who were asked to slaughter a cow, and they kept asking what kind of cow, what its color should be, what should be its age etc, making religion difficult for them. Similarly, we see that many questioned the prophet SAAWW about Ishabe Kahf (the people of the cave) and asked about their number. They forgot the essence of the story, the reason why Allah told us about them. Or why Allah asked the people of Thamud to slaughter the cow.

this however I do not agree...the jews slaughtering a cow is a complete different situation. in this case I am not trying to ask irrelevant questions...I just want to learn more about this certain hadeeth that dua can change qadr.
I do not disbelieve in this hadeeth...because I already checked on it and it is hasaan...so it must be true...I just want to understand it.
knowledge has a complete different effect on me. it makes me love my religion even more. that is why I am always seeking for answers for every questionmark in my head.

format_quote Originally Posted by wayfarer91

_____

LEt's keep things simple. The Prophet said Dua can change Qadr, because Allah blessed him with exceptional knowledge. He SAWW went to the miraaj, he has met other prophets, he has seen the hell and the heaven. Personally I belive in the preserved tablet the matters of life/death, children etc are mentined. Everything else, Allah changes through dua.

does that mean that you do not believe the explanation in abdullahs post? because for what I know it was clearly said in the video that everything is already written in qadr type 1.
and somehow "convincing Allah with dua" sounds a bit controversial to me. I mean Allah is all knowing...who are we to convince an all knowing being who already knows all our arguments before we even think about it? we know nothing better than Allah...let alone convincing Him to grant our dua.

So I do not believe that...there must be a better explanation.

again...the best I can think of is to make us realise that a lot of things written in our qadr need effort and dua.
this hadeeth prevents us from laying back and wait for the things written in qadr come and just fall in our laps.
to make us realize that we can partially steer our own qadr...but at the same time it is already fixed because that is the direct result of being an all knowing being. to live outside the grasp of time and therefore knowing the future.

I think it's unfair of Allah to do this to us Muslims. And humans at large. We have to keep our faith intact regardless of the situation
In the quran Allah promises to respond to our duas but then says it is accepted in one out of three ways.. That's not keeping to His words..
We are told to keep faith regardless of the hurdles.. Look at the kashmiris in Indian held kashmir. Generations have died trying for independence. None of their duas were answered.
And then in the end we are not sure we will go to Janah or not

Interesting thread, I have found that doubt and curiosity attacks at time when my faith in the idea of recovering from all these worldly disasters and tribulations is not 100%.

Even when things aren't going my way, its things like hope and prayer that assist me in keeping me sane to an extent.

I don't think anyone can explain why stuff happens. Reasons, logic and full comprehension is beyond any human mind. We just have to stick with it, keep it simple and keep faith.

I too have explored many explanations, frankly I don't think I will ever know why my journey turned out to be like this.

Pray that it does not get any worse and be grateful for everything that has happened thus far. It's hard to take in, be grateful for being subjected to oppression? Doesn't sound right, still have to give thanks to Allah swt, else it potentially can get worse... Right?

In terms of destination, I believe it is down to the strength and courage of a person that drives them towards it... (Free will), those that might lack these attributes may depend on miracles alone. If Allah swt wills, miracles can happen. Can you guarantee they will not?

It would make us feel a lot better if we knew why stuff happens the way they do or even fails to happen. But then everything would be predictable and the need for faith may be low.

My feeble little human mind can't comprehend the mechanisms which control the unexpected outcomes after decisons are made, it has changed me and made me cautious how we conduct ourselves in this world.

Imagine living a life where we can tap into the unseen, unheard and unknown. Wow, wish I had them super powers, could have saved me a lot of grief.

Even then....

"What is meant for you, won't miss you no matter what"
"What is is not meant for you, you'll never get"

Follow the teachings in the quran, hadith and sunnah to the best of your ability.

What else can you do?