as the title says , I'm having a discussion with an atheist about why Islam forbids homosexuality. Of course, it is enough for me as a Muslim to know that the Qur'an forbids it, because I follow the words of God no matter what. But the atheist doesn't have the concept of following the word of God, so I can't convince him just by saying that.
His main argument is : " people can't control what urges they get ( which is true ) , so why does God punish them for something they can't control , if he's the one who created us ? "
In order to answer that question. I need a more concrete explanation as to why homosexuality is forbidden. Like what the idea or goal of stopping it is. ( of course, the atheist doesn't accept it if I say " it's unnatural " , because some people are born as homosexuals according to him )
I would really appreciate any answers or sources that would help me convince him that the Islamic view is correct. (I might actually manage to convert him to Islam then)
Any arguments against homosexuality would be really helpful.
Re: Convincing an atheist that homosexuality is wrong
Peace be with you Euphorium,
format_quote Originally Posted by Euphorium
His main argument is : " people can't control what urges they get ( which is true )
If someone stood in a court of law and said, I couldn't control my urge to rape and murder. Would the judge let him off? Lack of self control is not an excuse in a court of law.
format_quote Originally Posted by Euphorium
I would really appreciate any answers or sources that would help me convince him that the Islamic view is correct.
Rather than argue about what you are against, find the reasons why there is a greater good path. Not all paths are equal, there is a greater way. Sex is seen as a commodity, an enjoyment, as long as there are consenting adults anything goes; but where does this lead? Sadly, today in the UK, when a child gets to 15, about half of them are not living with both their biological parents; if something goes wrong you move on and find another partner. This can lead to strained relationships with children, parents, grandparents and the wider family. In Islam, the union of a man and women is to create loving and obedient families. Families are the foundation of society, they are the key to bringing up children. Strong family relationships make caring communities, blood ties make stronger connections.
Re: Convincing an atheist that homosexuality is wrong
format_quote Originally Posted by Euphorium
Peace upon you,
as the title says , I'm having a discussion with an atheist about why Islam forbids homosexuality. Of course, it is enough for me as a Muslim to know that the Qur'an forbids it, because I follow the words of God no matter what. But the atheist doesn't have the concept of following the word of God, so I can't convince him just by saying that.
His main argument is : " people can't control what urges they get ( which is true ) , so why does God punish them for something they can't control , if he's the one who created us ? "
In order to answer that question. I need a more concrete explanation as to why homosexuality is forbidden. Like what the idea or goal of stopping it is. ( of course, the atheist doesn't accept it if I say " it's unnatural " , because some people are born as homosexuals according to him )
The reference to "because some people are born as homosexuals according to him", whenever people mention this, the research I have done with a comment like this has made me come to the conclusion they believe that this is the way The Creator created them. Now there are articles that can easily be found with a google search with the Pope even telling a homosexual man "God made you like that and loves you like that'. In my opinion statements like this strengthens the belief of certain individuals that is the way they were born.
I would really appreciate any answers or sources that would help me convince him that the Islamic view is correct. (I might actually manage to convert him to Islam then)
Any arguments against homosexuality would be really helpful.
Thank you very much in advance
Through the research I have done, one of the problems even trying to use religion to make a valid point, problem is you will most likely encounter people who will use religion to justify it.
One problem, is that when people believe that is the way they were created by The Creator, this goes against the design of "man and woman".
Now whether some "external factors" have tampered with the creation process during the time when the child was born, that is another area subject to debate (we don't know if at time when child was inside the mother's womb, if perhaps something was taken that has affected the child?) It is an area that one has to really think on how to present their argument in my opinion.
See I can accept that some external factor that has tampered with the creation process can result in the child being born that way (like taking medication or something during pregnancy), but I cannot accept they were made that way by The Creator as it goes against the design of "man and woman".
Re: Convincing an atheist that homosexuality is wrong
There is too much talking and focusing on homosexuality.
You know that in any major religion homosexuality is prohibited.
Some 20 years ago it was consigered a mental disease in many countries, a psychiatric disorder, it was so written in basic fundamental books of psychiatry.
Also, how it would be to talk about straight relationships so much?
We should engage in more productive and noori talks such as altruism, volounteering, education, work, health, nutrition, nawafil ibadah and leave obscene talks.
We should be kind to homosexuals, represent our religion in best form and word, but do not preocupy with them.
Such great sins similarly to extramartial sex lead not to any good and it is very well known as a risk factor for many diseases.
Last edited by Hamza Asadullah; 07-08-2022 at 03:35 AM.
Reason: Reminder again to focus on the question and topic at hand and not to keep going off on tangents
Re: Convincing an atheist that homosexuality is wrong
Peace be with you Murid;
format_quote Originally Posted by Murid
We should be kind to homosexuals, represent our religion in best form and word,
I agree with your sentiments. If we are not homosexuals ourselves, it would be easy to make judgements on those who are. But that would make us hypocrites, because we have our own faults and sins. We should not separate homosexuality from any other sin; we are better placed to judge ourselves; than to judge others. Only Allah has that right.
Re: Convincing an atheist that homosexuality is wrong
Eric.
The post is for you as I tend sometime to go offtopic.
Thank you for your wise and kind words!
Good perspectives in your posts mashaAllah.
That would be the right attitude. Allah knows best with no relative comparison to us. We are often weak in human knowledge, mercy, judgement and compassion.
Of course we should know people around us and be awere of their faults if they are well open, well known, chose our priorities and company well and not propagate sins (and less productive habits), but we as muslims should always be at the side of mercy, compassion, kindness and without pride. We should be grateful to Allah that he saved us from apparent sins. Only Allah knows our status in full vastness and true reality.
Of course, islamically good belivers are often described in primary and secundary sources (like books of tasawwuf, tazakiya...) and there are effects of good deeds and sins that can be noticed as well as character traits/ahlaq (thought in addition to islamic sources also during our upbringing and learning pedagogy, psychology, sociology or psychiatry etc.) but everything can, change...
Maybe a worst sinner can become better than a best beliver if he changes in his belives and deeds and stays so.
Maybe one sincere repentence/tawba/istigfar is enough so that the sins will be erased and even changed to good deeds.
It is possible, and we have the primary sources as most important guidelines and mercy and if we want to be good and put efforts it will be good inshaAllah.
Consistency is the key.
Often it is noticed that more kindness, mercy, compassion etc. is needed in nowdays world, often with muslims too. Talk is often needed and learning/studying of cultures, upbringing, roles and habits of others, to have insight and empathy.
We should focus in trying our best to improve our and other people lives and deeds counts.
We do not of course seek to get them into worse situation in both of the worlds as satan wishes-with our improper and unkind behaviour we could be adversaries of good in them.
With right insights and right knowledge/wisdom and right manners in our altruistic "dawah"-calling others to improveent a lot can be done inshaAllah.
A lot of these paradigms are thought from good sufi teachers and some can be found in tasawwuf, tazakiya books. It would be even better after tasawwuf/tazakiya training to deepen our knowledge with pedagogy, psychology, sociology etc.
For example, Fodayl ibn Iyad was a highwayman.
Often only one situation/word/deed changed villains lives and they became saints.
Often people even do not know it is a sin, or a great sin. We should present them the knowledge in best manners, trying to be interesting, humourful, alluring to them.
Often intentions of dawah were made by "wise fools" not to harm the persons dignity or to talk in a direct manner or uncover their faults, be pridefull etc.
Many people are less educated and even "simpleton" talks are needed similarly as we upbring children.
Re: Convincing an atheist that homosexuality is wrong
I present parables here and hope it will not be considered as off topic.
Often it is needed for us to be successful in "dunya" too, to give our example of altruism, productivity, voulounteering, deeds, to convince better it is a good path.
Deeds have often greater impacts than words.
People need to see a well-trodden path of a functional wordly living, kindness, wealth, success, altruism to be appealing.
Say, a parable if a homosexual sees a wealthy popular homosexual driving a supercar and his dad works for a minimal wage unable to meet the basic needs and the local imam is paid from sadaqah/zakah (seriously in some countries, like in the region of Balkans, imams are paid so), it can impact him a lot. Not to say about about people or kids seeing widespread criminal paths.
They often lack good role models.
It is hard nowdays to have role model impacts as often imams are poor and depending on sadaqa/donations.
Traditionally scholars i first centuries were very well "dunya" productive too, wealthy and not depending on others.
Similar goes to education and so on, in many different roles. Muslim wannabe dais can be a lot less wordly educated and the gay loby could consider them as savage/vicious and feel enmity towards them.
We should improve in many different aspects and put efforts of selfactualisations, becoming better versions of ourselfs and maybe a good example is often enough dawah/convincing.
Often traditionally convincing was done by "isharat", subtle example, acting or direct or indirect words.
May Allah guide us to the better knowledge, wisdom and manners.
Re: Convincing an atheist that homosexuality is wrong
format_quote Originally Posted by Euphorium
Peace upon you,
His main argument is : " people can't control what urges they get ( which is true ) , so why does God punish them for something they can't control , if he's the one who created us ? "
In order to answer that question. I need a more concrete explanation as to why homosexuality is forbidden. Like what the idea or goal of stopping it is. ( of course, the atheist doesn't accept it if I say " it's unnatural " , because some people are born as homosexuals according to him )
I would really appreciate any answers or sources that would help me convince him that the Islamic view is correct. (I might actually manage to convert him to Islam then)
Any arguments against homosexuality would be really helpful.
Thank you very much in advance
Allah does not punish a person simply for the urges they get, but rather, Allah rewards those who abstain from such things and punishes those who act on them.
On another not, the lgtbq crowd need to make up their minds in regards to whether they were born this way or they chose to be like this. On one hand, they preach they were born like this. On the other hand, they preach that anyone can choose to be whatever they want. If they can choose to be this way, surely they can choose to not be that way as well.
Re: Convincing an atheist that homosexuality is wrong
Homosexuality is a form of sexual orientation.
First of all they have to make up their minds whether sexual orientation is a born thing or something that one developes by external factors.
One discussion they always trying to avoid is the double standards they have for different kinds of sexual orientation.
If they claim that homosexuality is a born thing and that they can do nothing about it, they also have to accept that pedophilia is also a born thing, so pedophile can also not do anything about it.
But if pedophilia is a sickness or an abnormality that need to be healed or treated, then they also must admit that homosexuality is a sickness or an abnormality that at least should be the option for healing or treatment.
This is a contradiction you can easily confront them with.
Re: Convincing an atheist that homosexuality is wrong
There are also other sicknesses with sexuality.
Pornography addiction for example, which leads addicted to worse and worse cases every single day. It's scientifically proven as a problem similar to drugs.
And it's all just a desire and we're not supposed to follow our desires.
It's, sometimes very hard to resist and that's the jihad with ourselves.
The pornography in addition to the mentioned in hadith adds some other problems, like: 1.additional shamefulness, 2. additional sin, 3.witnessing, 4.addiction, 5.brain change/dopamine (google nofap dopamine detox), 6.we ruin our relations with malaika and Allah, 7.shaytan comes, 8.it ruines our fitra and sex education....
It is scientifically proven that pornography is often cruel/unnatural, as there is no romance, intimacy and preparing for the intercourse-it is very bad for woman and can hurt them if men replicate pornography.
There is this hadith too:
Jabir said, “So when we were about to enter the city, the Prophet ﷺ said to me, ‘Slow down, and enter at night, so that she who has not combed may comb her hair, and she who has not shaved may shave her private area.’ Then he ﷺ said to me, ‘When you enter upon her, then be wise and gentle.’”
Re: Convincing an atheist that homosexuality is wrong
What are you guys doing?! Really??! Such a time waster......all these replies.
You need to convince the athiest first that Allah exist and to believe in him. If you cannot do that then everything else are mood point. Maybe in the future an athiest will believe that doing bestiality is a choice and love or having sex with children is not a porblem. The only important thing in the entire universe is to believe in Allah as the one and already true God and you worship him alone without associating partners with him, and you believe in all his prophets, angels, books, day of judgement, resurrection, hellfire and paradise.. The reason the athiest is labaled an athiest because HE DOES NOT BELIEVE. So, maybe you need to focus on that first and not focus on homosexuality or lesbianism been wrong (which it is), or drugs is wrong (which it is). Your message to any disbeliever right now is to deliver the message that Allah is the one and only true God and to worship him alone without associating partners with him and to believe in all his prophets,books, day of judgement, fait, resurrection date, paradise and hellfire.
You need to make the person say the shadatain and first thing you need to do is teach them how to pray and they need to start praying right away once they enter Islam. Then you can teach him about homosexuality is haraam and wrong and an evil act and so forth.
Last edited by xboxisdead; 07-13-2022 at 07:49 PM.
Re: Convincing an atheist that homosexuality is wrong
format_quote Originally Posted by xboxisdead
What are you guys doing?! Really??! Such a time waster......all these replies.
.
My dear brother in Islam. I agree with you on your point. Of course I will first get the atheist to believe in God before getting him to accept the fact that some things are forbidden (homosexuality in this situation).
But first you don't have to be harsh and call it a waste of time to discuss about this topic. I have learned a lot from the answers the others have provided here and will definitely make use of this knowledge later on in my journey with my atheist friend (after he becomes a believer).
This is the whole reason this forum exists. It's to discuss things regarding Islam, and that's what we're doing.
Re: Convincing an atheist that homosexuality is wrong
format_quote Originally Posted by xboxisdead
Such a time waster......all these replies.
What are you talking about? It's all relevant. Whether it's homosexuality, promiscuity, alcohol, or whatever the subject is, talking about such things from the Islamic perspective open's the door to speak about Allah. Just coming out point blank and telling an atheist, of all people, that they need to believe in the unseen is going to be counter productive, and quite frankly, a time waster.
Re: Convincing an atheist that homosexuality is wrong
format_quote Originally Posted by Euphorium
My dear brother in Islam. I agree with you on your point. Of course I will first get the atheist to believe in God before getting him to accept the fact that some things are forbidden (homosexuality in this situation).
But first you don't have to be harsh and call it a waste of time to discuss about this topic. I have learned a lot from the answers the others have provided here and will definitely make use of this knowledge later on in my journey with my atheist friend (after he becomes a believer).
This is the whole reason this forum exists. It's to discuss things regarding Islam, and that's what we're doing.
Hope you have a nice day
Good point. I guess, I was coming from the point of discussing homosexuality to an athiest which is a waste of time. Discussing anything haraam to a disbeliever is really pointless. When the real reason of their existance they have failed to achieve.
Re: Convincing an atheist that homosexuality is wrong
The atheist gay problem is the prohibition of being gay before accepting reality - there is God.
If one has that problem, no way he/she will accept the reality, for it hurts them. Before convincing him there's Allah, he has to understand why is homosexuality prohibited.
So, no comment was waste of time. This is how it all starts.
Re: Convincing an atheist that homosexuality is wrong
format_quote Originally Posted by Flos
The atheist gay problem is the prohibition of being gay before accepting reality - there is God.
If one has that problem, no way he/she will accept the reality, for it hurts them. Before convincing him there's Allah, he has to understand why is homosexuality prohibited.
So, no comment was waste of time. This is how it all starts.
Exactly!!
every single atheist will come up with similar questions, and as long as he/she doesn't get correct answers to their questions, they will not even consider to believe in a God.
so, nothing of this whole conversation was a waste of time.
We muslims need to have the knowledge and ability to answer those questions properly so that at least they get a feeling of "hmm, that actually makes sense"...even though they might not admit it openly.
Re: Convincing an atheist that homosexuality is wrong
format_quote Originally Posted by Euphorium
Peace upon you,
as the title says , I'm having a discussion with an atheist about why Islam forbids homosexuality. Of course, it is enough for me as a Muslim to know that the Qur'an forbids it, because I follow the words of God no matter what. But the atheist doesn't have the concept of following the word of God, so I can't convince him just by saying that.
His main argument is : " people can't control what urges they get ( which is true ) , so why does God punish them for something they can't control , if he's the one who created us ? "
In order to answer that question. I need a more concrete explanation as to why homosexuality is forbidden. Like what the idea or goal of stopping it is. ( of course, the atheist doesn't accept it if I say " it's unnatural " , because some people are born as homosexuals according to him )
I would really appreciate any answers or sources that would help me convince him that the Islamic view is correct. (I might actually manage to convert him to Islam then)
Any arguments against homosexuality would be really helpful.
Thank you very much in advance
Assalamu Alaikum.
Firstly we must never befriend such people nor should we spend too much time listening to their arguments, looking up their lectures, articles and theories. This is because it can have a negative effect on a person by making them have doubts, especially if one lacks knowledge. Also know that you are not bound to prove anything to an Atheist. Make your points to them with wisdom and tact, send them the relevant material, lectures and resources and then leave it at that. Ask Allah to open their hearts to guidance too.
In this particular argument. Firstly state to the Atheist that there is no empirical evidence that people are born "gay". This is because there is absolutely no scientific evidence of a "gay gene". It is therefore an acquired behaviour. In fact homosexuality used to be linked to a mental health disorder.
Secondly the Science also states that Gay intercourse leads to the spread of many sexually transmitted diseases of which a few are deadly. It also leads to damage to the sphincter muscle because scientifically speaking the rectum/sphincter is not meant to be used for penetration, but meant for defecation.
Thirdly homosexuality goes against the preservation of our species. So the more it is adopted by Human kind then the more chance there is in the future of our species becoming extinct.
Finally he states that people can't "help" the way they feel. Well many people feel attraction towards children, animals and many other things that can be considered as sexual depravity. Many others feel like killing, raping and many other crimes against humanity. So imagine we lived in a society where everyone acted on their "feelings"? There would be chaos and turmoil. Such a society would not be able to function. If he says well they are not harming anybody. Well yes in fact they are, as stated above they are helping to spread many sexually transmitted diseases of which a few are deadly, they are also causing physical damage to one another and also by adopting homosexuality then they are reducing humankind which can have dire consequences for the future of mankind.
Therefore Islam aims to protect society against such deadly diseases, physical damage and the future of human kind against harmful whims, desires and sexual depravities that is contrary to the preservation of mankind. Therefore it is only right that it puts into place strict rules to ensure that such an abomination does not spread and cause slow destruction to human kind.
Last edited by Hamza Asadullah; 07-15-2022 at 04:15 PM.
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