By Gregory Crouch in Nijmegen, the Netherlands
March 17, 2006
THIS is not exactly a run-of-the-mill homework assignment: watch a film clip of an attractive woman sunbathing topless and try not to be shocked.
"People do not make a fuss about nudity," the narrator says.
That lesson, about the Netherlands' nude beaches, is followed by another: homosexuals have the same rights here as heterosexuals do, including the chance to marry.
Just to make sure everyone gets the message, two men are shown kissing in a meadow.
The scenes are brief parts of a two-hour-long film that the Dutch government has compiled to help potential immigrants, many from Islamic countries, meet the demands of a new entrance test that went into effect on Wednesday.
Opponents of the tightening immigration policies have pointed to the film - a DVD contained in a package of study materials for the new exam - as an attempt by the Government to discourage applicants from Islamic countries who may be offended by its content.
Dutch politicians and immigration officials have dismissed those accusations, saying the film is a study aid that will give potential immigrants an honest look at the way life is lived here.
"The film is meant for people not yet in Holland to take note that this is normal here and not be shocked and awed by it once they arrive," said Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali-born member of the Dutch parliament.
But Abdou Menebhi, chairman of Emcemo, a Moroccan interest group in Amsterdam, said the film was just another example of how the Netherlands was trying to limit immigration from Muslim countries.
"This isn't education, it's provocation," Mr Menebhi said. "The new law has one goal: to stop the flow of immigrants, especially by Muslims from countries like Morocco and Turkey."
Citizens from the US, the European Union, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan and Switzerland are exempt.
Dutch officials deny the film is intended to discourage Muslim immigration. But they insist they want all applicants to wonder whether or not they would fit into one of the world's most permissive societies.
Besides the snippets on homosexuality and nudity, the film shows a run-down neighbourhood populated by immigrants who describe the Dutch as "cold" and "distant". It warns of traffic jams, unemployment and possible flooding. One newspaper joked that the tourist board would give the whole production a thumbs down.
Re: Muslims upset at in-your-face lesson in Dutchness
fair enough, so I did read the post, but its still just justification on religious grounds that were made by men, I still say a loving God would NEVER call for cruel and unusual punishments, thats why the rest of the civilised world outlaws them. I am sorry, but if you believe that so cruelly killing someone for doing something with another consenting adult, then I pity you and the lack of love in your religion.
Re: Muslims upset at in-your-face lesson in Dutchness
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
fair enough, so I did read the post,
Excellent
but its still just justification on religious grounds that were made by men, I still say a loving God would NEVER call for cruel and unusual punishments, thats why the rest of the civilised world outlaws them.
I see.
I am sorry, but if you believe that so cruelly killing someone for doing something with another consenting adult, then I pity you and the lack of love in your religion.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else. All I ask is that people consider all the facts before reaching a conclusion, which you have done.
Re: Muslims upset at in-your-face lesson in Dutchness
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
fair enough, so I did read the post, but its still just justification on religious grounds that were made by men, I still say a loving God would NEVER call for cruel and unusual punishments, thats why the rest of the civilised world outlaws them. I am sorry, but if you believe that so cruelly killing someone for doing something with another consenting adult, then I pity you and the lack of love in your religion.
All religions have such punishments. In reality, it is EXTREMELY hard to actually sentense someone to stoning. The fact is that if someone does get stoned, there is a big chance that they wanted it that way.
Re: Muslims upset at in-your-face lesson in Dutchness
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
I suppose that poor 17 ear old girl deserves to get stoned to death if she dares to make love to another person, she knows for a fact the man will kill her if he found her, and she must be find-able to get a divorce! How can you excuse such barbarism, there are plenty of people waiting to adopt, they can also get pensions for single mums.
First of all, islamically - she can go to court and ask for a divorce, especially if she knows the husband will react violently. She should seek refuge somewhere else, and stay away from her husband.
Your point: "there are plenty of people waiting to adopt" - do you really think that people respected orphaned children 1400yrs ago? Once they adopted them - do you really think that all people treat their adopted children with care, or did they treat them as slaves? There may be people who may want to adopt now, but the child still is in danger of being abused, used etc.
Do you think that the mother feels happy living on pensions, just because her 'lover' ran away with another woman? Is that really true love?
I'm not trying to offend you, but you have to realise that all these laws are there for a reason. And you're trying to belittle the longterm effects which are the most important of all.
Not every child can have a parent once their orphaned, and pyschological studies have shown that the child is different if they don't have a father, or a mother to lookafter them.
People won't go near adultery/fornication this way, because they know the punishment and the bad effects it has, especially for the woman. The lover she once had, isn't there no more and that has much worse emotional scars than having sexual enjoyment for some moments within your lifetime. And the child through that sexual relationship doesn't have a father/mother, their whole life is a mystery and they always wonder 'who was my real father or mother?'
Re: Muslims upset at in-your-face lesson in Dutchness
it seems muslims will excuse anything, even this horrible hateful thing, as long as someone can find a verse to back them up. You mentioned 1400 years ago? That is my point, those laws are not valid today, any more than its ok to marry someone young as 6 or take slaves today.
I gotta go to bed, I have had enough for today, you guys are convinced that this abhorent practice is ok, and I am sickened by it,
cya
Re: Muslims upset at in-your-face lesson in Dutchness
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
it seems muslims will excuse anything, even this horrible hateful thing, as long as someone can find a verse to back them up. You mentioned 1400 years ago? That is my point, those laws are not valid today, any more than its ok to marry someone young as 6 or take slaves today.
I gotta go to bed, I have had enough for today, you guys are convinced that this abhorent practice is ok, and I am sickened by it,
cya
If you are an athiest, then I may understand your reaction. If you follow any of the three books, then you are simply being a hypocrite.
Peace.
Re: Muslims upset at in-your-face lesson in Dutchness
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
it seems muslims will excuse anything, even this horrible hateful thing, as long as someone can find a verse to back them up. You mentioned 1400 years ago? That is my point, those laws are not valid today, any more than its ok to marry someone young as 6 or take slaves today.
I gotta go to bed, I have had enough for today, you guys are convinced that this abhorent practice is ok, and I am sickened by it,
cya
Where people allowed to marry children as young as six back then :grumbling ! SICK!!!
Re: Muslims upset at in-your-face lesson in Dutchness
format_quote Originally Posted by Cheb
All religions have such punishments. In reality, it is EXTREMELY hard to actually sentense someone to stoning. The fact is that if someone does get stoned, there is a big chance that they wanted it that way.
Someone just quoted a document that said many scholars thought that a pregnancy in an unmarried woman was proof enough. How hard is that to achieve?
And actually very few religions have such punishments. Essentially only Judaism and Islam.
Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
Re: Muslims upset at in-your-face lesson in Dutchness
Christians certainly do not sentence people to death for converting to other religions, I don't know if Jews do. As to the pictures, why do muslims always come up with excuses like that? A muslim has it on her avatar, I didn't put it there! I just pointed it out. I have also seen the thousands of muslims chanting and yelling those same hate messages, especially when they were stirred up about some cartoons, so why do they need to have been photoshopped?
Re: Muslims upset at in-your-face lesson in Dutchness
format_quote Originally Posted by irsha
Christians certainly do not sentence people to death for converting to other religions, I don't know if Jews do. As to the pictures, why do muslims always come up with excuses like that? A muslim has it on her avatar, I didn't put it there! I just pointed it out.
Okay. I'm not accusing you of anything.
I have also seen the thousands of muslims chanting and yelling those same hate messages, especially when they were stirred up about some cartoons, so why do they need to have been photoshopped?
Fair enough. Even if it's not photoshopped, it's protected under freedom of expression. And even though I don't agree with messages of hatred, people are free to make them unfortunately.
Re: Muslims upset at in-your-face lesson in Dutchness
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Even if the woman was a victim of rape and hadn't said anything about it since she feels (unecessarily in my opinion) ashamed?
Allegedly this is what happened to the woman in Nigeria they were going to stone. Except I think she did mention it. It was just that she could not find four adult male witnesses and unfortunately the judges did not seem to share the same view of the Law that Ansar al-Adl does.
Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
Re: Muslims upset at in-your-face lesson in Dutchness
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
I don't think she said you lied, did she? It was another woman.
Myself, I do not see a lot of hate in that signature although it is very dark and frankly depressing. It is an improvement over the SAM-totting jihadis she has used in the past. Still I expect to see Darth Vader walk into that sig at any moment with the full Imperial March sound effects. The Emperor inspecting his Imperial Storm Sisters perhaps.
LOOOOOOOOOOLLLLL!!!!!!!!!
Hey... black is not depressing!
Well everyone can calm down, I have changed my signature. Man, you'd think I had actually hurt someone by the way people were going on about it. But don't get too happy, I frequently change my signatures and avatars... I didn't do it to please any one. If I changed it for anyone, it would be renak. She's a really nice gal, and I would never want to offend her. Anyway, this thread has been completely derailed. BACK ON TOPIC!
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