Muslims upset at in-your-face lesson in Dutchness

**solid_snake** · 03-19-2006

http://smh.com.au/news/world/muslims...098602916.html

By Gregory Crouch in Nijmegen, the Netherlands
March 17, 2006

THIS is not exactly a run-of-the-mill homework assignment: watch a film clip of an attractive woman sunbathing topless and try not to be shocked.

"People do not make a fuss about nudity," the narrator says.

That lesson, about the Netherlands' nude beaches, is followed by another: homosexuals have the same rights here as heterosexuals do, including the chance to marry.

Just to make sure everyone gets the message, two men are shown kissing in a meadow.

The scenes are brief parts of a two-hour-long film that the Dutch government has compiled to help potential immigrants, many from Islamic countries, meet the demands of a new entrance test that went into effect on Wednesday.

Opponents of the tightening immigration policies have pointed to the film - a DVD contained in a package of study materials for the new exam - as an attempt by the Government to discourage applicants from Islamic countries who may be offended by its content.

Dutch politicians and immigration officials have dismissed those accusations, saying the film is a study aid that will give potential immigrants an honest look at the way life is lived here.

"The film is meant for people not yet in Holland to take note that this is normal here and not be shocked and awed by it once they arrive," said Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali-born member of the Dutch parliament.

But Abdou Menebhi, chairman of Emcemo, a Moroccan interest group in Amsterdam, said the film was just another example of how the Netherlands was trying to limit immigration from Muslim countries.

"This isn't education, it's provocation," Mr Menebhi said. "The new law has one goal: to stop the flow of immigrants, especially by Muslims from countries like Morocco and Turkey."

Citizens from the US, the European Union, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan and Switzerland are exempt.

Dutch officials deny the film is intended to discourage Muslim immigration. But they insist they want all applicants to wonder whether or not they would fit into one of the world's most permissive societies.

Besides the snippets on homosexuality and nudity, the film shows a run-down neighbourhood populated by immigrants who describe the Dutch as "cold" and "distant". It warns of traffic jams, unemployment and possible flooding. One newspaper joked that the tourist board would give the whole production a thumbs down.

**Light Of Life** · 04-04-2006

I think gorgeous would look better than fabulous. But perhaps that's subjective. As for eyeliner being banned, I'm not sure. It's probably one of the issues that depend on who you ask. Most Muslim and especially Arabic women that I know wear make-up.

**Knut Hamsun** · 04-04-2006

Maybe even fabulous. Which raises an interesting question...

...er, um, I think "fabulousness" is un-islamic. I guess it depends on the amount of sibilance used in its pronounciation! heh

**irsha** · 04-04-2006

Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam

you know the people who started the cronulla riots werent even muslim.. they were lebanese christians.. but a lot of people in australia seem to think all muslims are lebanese...
and im sorry to hear about your boyfriend..

You can excuse it all you want, I lived in Cronulla most of my life- They are muslim middle eastern men causing the problems, I know the difference, so do everyone else living there. Of all my friends living in Cronulla, every single one of them can tell a story of being harrassed by muslim young men. The cronulla people didnt just wake up one moring and say, hey its a nice day, lets have a riot, no they reacted to about 10 years of frustration and anger at what the muslim boys have been doing there

**Umu 'Isa** · 04-05-2006

Originally Posted by HeiGou

Well I searched that and all I found was a lot of rather unfair denounciations of Australia, but not evidence of Maronite involvement at all.

I have done a quick search of the Sydney Morning Herald (there's still a League team called Cronulla? Wow) and got nothing. What news?

like i said i couldnt find anything on it, as it was 5 months ago.. its probably all been deleted.

Small groups obviously. Where are the Muslim Governors? The Muslim Premiers? Why is it that someone like Steve Bracks can be Premier or someone of Lebanese descent can be elected by the Nationals, but not someone of Lebanese Muslim descent?

i dont know why they are not doing anything. I recently read an article in the lebanese muslims association magazine called 'The Fate of the Muslim Gangster,' it basically says these people are ruining the image of our beloved Prophet (saws) i might post it actually.

And Lebanese Muslims, Turks and Afghans have what in common apart from high crime rates, low literacy skills and high unemployment?

well they are all labelled muslims. But I have never seen any of em wit a beard, praying ect. They obviously do not practise. Or they wouldnt be hanging in groups harrassing girls, picking up girls, doing zina, alcohol, drugs, violence.. they are extremely misguided.

Absolutely. Do you think that if they practice the problem will go away? After all, their parents probably practiced.

Yes absolutely. It will go away. Well i dont know if their parents practise.. but i know its very hard to disciple a disobediant young man! especially when they tell you to shut up n slam the doors in your face and jump out the window of a night

Originally Posted by Irsha

You can excuse it all you want, I lived in Cronulla most of my life- They are muslim middle eastern men causing the problems, I know the difference, so do everyone else living there. Of all my friends living in Cronulla, every single one of them can tell a story of being harrassed by muslim young men. The cronulla people didnt just wake up one moring and say, hey its a nice day, lets have a riot, no they reacted to about 10 years of frustration and anger at what the muslim boys have been doing there

i never denied muslim men are down there doin that stuff.. allll i said was the lifeguard bashings were two lebanese CHRISTIANS.. im australian and i was non muslim once.. and i know the types of things they used to say... and it is 100% not islamic..
“The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely or speak rudely.” (Tirmidhi)

**HeiGou** · 04-05-2006

Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam

like i said i couldnt find anything on it, as it was 5 months ago.. its probably all been deleted.

Well I would appreciate it if you kept looking.

i dont know why they are not doing anything. I recently read an article in the lebanese muslims association magazine called 'The Fate of the Muslim Gangster,' it basically says these people are ruining the image of our beloved Prophet (saws) i might post it actually.

I saw it. And yet Bob Katter sits in Parliament. Steve Bracks runs Victoria. Why are Maronites doing so much better than Sunni and Shia Lebanese? It si not as if the second generation is donig any better than the first. Do you think anyone is to blame apart from me, Joe, Irsha and all the other kafirs around here? Do you think that this is reflecting a dysfunctional culture and it needs to change?

well they are all labelled muslims. But I have never seen any of em wit a beard, praying ect. They obviously do not practise. Or they wouldnt be hanging in groups harrassing girls, picking up girls, doing zina, alcohol, drugs, violence.. they are extremely misguided.

They are more than labelled Muslims. They come from a Muslim background. Their culture is shaped by Islam. They may have abandoned all the tough parts of that religion, but the culture has remained don't you think? Muslim men have always hung around in groups in cities and harrassed women. I admit they have not had many opportunities for alcohol, drugs and zina, but violence is not unheard of. I agree they are misguided. But what needs to be done? If they were more pious that would be a good thing except that the sort of piety they are likely to pick up is neo-Kharijism in my opinion. Why is that?

Yes absolutely. It will go away. Well i dont know if their parents practise.. but i know its very hard to disciple a disobediant young man! especially when they tell you to shut up n slam the doors in your face and jump out the window of a night

Well if their parents came from Afghanistan it would be hard not to. It is, I agree, hard to discipline young men. Especially in the West. And yet the non-Muslim population does not have these sorts of problems. God knows the Chinese community does not and they suffer more racism than Muslims. If they were more observant it might go away but it is more likely it would just defer the problem for the next generation. They are not adapting to Western society well in my opinion and they need to rethink their values until they do.

and i know the types of things they used to say... and it is 100% not islamic..
“The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely or speak rudely.” (Tirmidhi)

And yet it is, roughly, 100 percent associated with people from Muslim backgrounds. The Irish-Australian community is not down there being a problem. The Chinese-Australians are not. Nor are the Greeks or Italians. And it is not as if some Italians do not try it on whenever they can - but they have some minimal level of respect for women and so it is annoying but not as bad. You would never hear an Italian-Australian hitting on a Skip by calling her a ----. Why do you think that is? What values are being taught here?

**Umu 'Isa** · 04-05-2006

majority of these lebanese muslims are born here in australia, and their parents too.. look i agree that there are SOME bad and SOME good. Not all... a few lebanese people i know are IN uni and ARE studying.. so it is definately not ALL.. there are bad people everywhere..
what are you trying to say? that Islam makes them act like this? I quoted you a hadith, saying, “The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely or speak rudely.” (Tirmidhi) so therefore it is NOT islamic. They are brought up here so i doubt their culture is very islamic.

**HeiGou** · 04-05-2006

Originally Posted by Ladee_Maryam

majority of these lebanese muslims are born here in australia, and their parents too.. look i agree that there are SOME bad and SOME good. Not all... a few lebanese people i know are IN uni and ARE studying.. so it is definately not ALL.. there are bad people everywhere..
what are you trying to say? that Islam makes them act like this? I quoted you a hadith, saying, “The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely or speak rudely.” (Tirmidhi) so therefore it is NOT islamic. They are brought up here so i doubt their culture is very islamic.

I know of a few Australian Muslim Lebanese that are in University and even employment! So I don't want to run the entire community down. I am not trying to say that Islam makes them do it. Perish the thought. But some cultural influence does. They may be brought up in Australia, but it is not Australian culture that makes them do that because, as I am sure Irsha will tell you, Anglo-Celtic Australian men do not do that. Much. So if we agree it is not Islam, what is it in your opinion?

**Umu 'Isa** · 04-05-2006

okay we'll come to that agreement.. I just came from my friends house, shes lebanese muslim. And they are the most friendly people i have ever met. They treat me like part of their family, and i dont understand why these young men do this. They (my friends) dont even know. It is not part of their culture at all. These men are just uncontrollable. I have no idea where it started but it continues due to peer pressure..