I received this great new article from a colleague of mine who notices my preoccupation with death, especially of the patient newly autopsied so in turn sent me this article today.. which found rather amusing.. my reply to it was at the bottom, although I was impressed by Dr. Parnia's work
Tue Sep 23, 6:40 PM ET
A fellow at New York City's Weill Cornell Medical Center, Dr. Sam Parnia is one of the world's leading experts on the scientific study of death. Last week Parnia and his colleagues at the Human Consciousness Project announced their first major undertaking: a 3-year exploration of the biology behind "out-of-body" experiences. The study, known as AWARE (AWAreness during REsuscitation), involves the collaboration of 25 major medical centers through Europe, Canada and the U.S. and will examine some 1,500 survivors of cardiac arrest. TIME spoke with Parnia about the project's origins, its skeptics and the difference between the mind and the brain.
What sort of methods will this project use to try and verify people's claims of "near-death" experience?
When your heart stops beating, there is no blood getting to your brain. And so what happens is that within about 10 sec., brain activity ceases - as you would imagine. Yet paradoxically, 10% or 20% of people who are then brought back to life from that period, which may be a few minutes or over an hour, will report having consciousness. So the key thing here is, Are these real, or is it some sort of illusion? So the only way to tell is to have pictures only visible from the ceiling and nowhere else, because they claim they can see everything from the ceiling. So if we then get a series of 200 or 300 people who all were clinically dead, and yet they're able to come back and tell us what we were doing and were able see those pictures, that confirms consciousness really was continuing even though the brain wasn't functioning.
How does this project relate to society's perception of death?
People commonly perceive death as being a moment - you're either dead or you're alive. And that's a social definition we have. But the clinical definition we use is when the heart stops beating, the lungs stop working, and as a consequence the brain itself stops working. When doctors shine a light into someone's pupil, it's to demonstrate that there is no reflex present. The eye reflex is mediated by the brain stem, and that's the area that keeps us alive; if that doesn't work, then that means that the brain itself isn't working. At that point, I'll call a nurse into the room so I can certify that this patient is dead. Fifty years ago, people couldn't survive after that.
How is technology challenging the perception that death is a moment?
Nowadays, we have technology that's improved so that we can bring people back to life. In fact, there are drugs being developed right now - who knows if they'll ever make it to the market - that may actually slow down the process of brain-cell injury and death. Imagine you fast-forward to 10 years down the line; and you've given a patient, whose heart has just stopped, this amazing drug; and actually what it does is, it slows everything down so that the things that would've happened over an hour, now happen over two days. As medicine progresses, we will end up with lots and lots of ethical questions.
But what is happening to the individual at that time? What's really going on? Because there is a lack of blood flow, the cells go into a kind of a frenzy to keep themselves alive. And within about 5 min. or so they start to damage or change. After an hour or so the damage is so great that even if we restart the heart again and pump blood, the person can no longer be viable, because the cells have just been changed too much. And then the cells continue to change so that within a couple of days the body actually decomposes. So it's not a moment; it's a process that actually begins when the heart stops and culminates in the complete loss of the body, the decompositions of all the cells. However, ultimately what matters is, What's going on to a person's mind? What happens to the human mind and consciousness during death? Does that cease immediately as soon as the heart stops? Does it cease activity within the first 2 sec., the first 2 min.? Because we know that cells are continuously changing at that time. Does it stop after 10 min., after half an hour, after an hour? And at this point we don't know.
What was your first interview like with someone who had reported an out-of-body experience?
Eye-opening and very humbling. Because what you see is that, first of all, they are completely genuine people who are not looking for any kind of fame or attention. In many cases they haven't even told anybody else about it because they're afraid of what people will think of them. I have about 500 or so cases of people that I've interviewed since I first started out more than 10 years ago. It's the consistency of the experiences, the reality of what they were describing. I managed to speak to doctors and nurses who had been present who said these patients had told them exactly what had happened, and they couldn't explain it. I actually documented a few of those in my book What Happens When We Die because I wanted people to get both angles - not just the patients' side but also the doctors' side - and see how it feels for the doctors to have a patient come back and tell them what was going on. There was a cardiologist that I spoke with who said he hasn't told anyone else about it because he has no explanation for how this patient could have been able to describe in detail what he had said and done. He was so freaked out by it that he just decided not to think about it anymore.
Why do you think there is such resistance to studies like yours?
Because we're pushing through the boundaries of science, working against assumptions and perceptions that have been fixed. A lot of people hold this idea that, well, when you die, you die; that's it. Death is a moment - you know you're either dead or alive. All these things are not scientifically valid, but they're social perceptions. If you look back at the end of the 19th century, physicists at that time had been working with Newtonian laws of motion, and they really felt they had all the answers to everything that was out there in the universe. When we look at the world around us, Newtonian physics is perfectly sufficient. It explains most things that we deal with. But then it was discovered that actually when you look at motion at really small levels - beyond the level of the atoms - Newton's laws no longer apply. A new physics was needed, hence, we eventually ended up with quantum physics. It caused a lot of controversy - even Einstein himself didn't believe in it.
Now, if you look at the mind, consciousness, and the brain, the assumption that the mind and brain are the same thing is fine for most circumstances, because in 99% of circumstances we can't separate the mind and brain; they work at the exactly the same time. But then there are certain extreme examples, like when the brain shuts down, that we see that this assumption may no longer seem to hold true. So a new science is needed in the same way that we had to have a new quantum physics. The CERN particle accelerator may take us back to our roots. It may take us back to the first moments after the Big Bang, the very beginning. With our study, for the first time, we have the technology and the means to be able to investigate this. To see what happens at the end for us. Does something continue?
Death biologically and chemically ensues with the arrest of organ activity.. but no science can be applied to the 'soul' - that is the breath of divinity and beyond mortal remains or comprehension for that matter, but is the 'sole' promise of the one who gave life to begin with out of a union between two cells--just as we emerged from the darkness of the womb to this life, as we emerge the darkness of sleep to morning light, shall we emerge again from the darkness of the grave to eternal life.
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wow very interesting article and I liked The response
Especcialy This Line :
-just as we emerged from the darkness of the womb to this life, as we emerge the darkness of sleep to morning light,
shall we emerge again from the darkness of the grave to eternal life.
And as for the onewho fears standing in front of His Lord and restrainsthe soul from impure evil desires and lusts, verily, Paradise will be his abode [79:40-41]
I was debateing this on the atheist website. They were talking about why so many NDE's saw the tunnel of light and met their familys etc.
Explainations included that this is what the subconcious is going to expect to see. We all know about tunnels of light and expectations of Heaven.
Muslims talk of seeing Mohammed there, Christians see people they "know" as Jesus.
I said that this would be impressive evidence if the perceptions were the same. That Jesus had the same hair colour and length in every case, the type of robe he was wearing etc etc. As it is the descriptions look like a 17century painting of him and nothing like the real Jesus would have looked.
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
I was never offered an explanation of 'reason' by any atheist.. for the most part I have drawn the conclusion that they are sterile beings, who read articles in isolation and only those that support their own brand of faith, if anything of science doesn't appeal to their sterility, they will either seek to point out perceived flaws, in the speaker, the institution, the study itself while bringing their own crew of braying donkeys to speak not only on behalf of the scientific community which they neither represent in views nor education.. I believe this quote from the article above was best..
Because we're pushing through the boundaries of science, working against assumptions and perceptions that have been fixed. A lot of people hold this idea that, well, when you die, you die; that's it. Death is a moment - you know you're either dead or alive. All these things are not scientifically valid, but they're social perceptions. If you look back at the end of the 19th century, physicists at that time had been working with Newtonian laws of motion, and they really felt they had all the answers to everything that was out there in the universe. When we look at the world around us, Newtonian physics is perfectly sufficient. It explains most things that we deal with. But then it was discovered that actually when you look at motion at really small levels - beyond the level of the atoms - Newton's laws no longer apply. A new physics was needed, hence, we eventually ended up with quantum physics. It caused a lot of controversy - even Einstein himself didn't believe in it.
Atheists are a useless bunch, for they neither understand the basic oath of science which is to say-- nothing is certain! nor are they open for change to conventional wisdom, when change is always imminent in science..
yet accuse those who believe in possibilities as zealots.. which if anything, the greatest most obvious form of projection~!
cheers
Last edited by جوري; 09-24-2008 at 07:48 PM.
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I read abt this a couple of days back on BBC . No doubt it is very fascinating but very creeeeeeepppy and scary.
BTW, should we be scared of death or not?
I don't think there is anything to be scared of at all...
it is a rebirth to the eternal house, as we are here only as travelers...
which do you like best, going on a trip or reaching your destination? I know there is satisfaction to be had on a trip as well... but there is peace I believe in reachig your destiny and smiling that you are free...
for the one who lives life aright seeding goodness, I think it would be time for cultivation and great harvest insha'Allah..
and Allah knows best
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That was fascinating, and useful to know about! Thanks!
The intelligence theory I am working on also follows intelligence into subatomic behavior through the levels of Multicellular-Cell-Molecule-Subatomic so the article mentioning consciousness moving back towards or into the subatomic, makes perfect sense. Exciting, yet eerie, at the same time.
That was fascinating, and useful to know about! Thanks!
The intelligence theory I am working on also follows intelligence into subatomic behavior through the levels of Multicellular-Cell-Molecule-Subatomic so the article mentioning consciousness moving back towards or into the subatomic, makes perfect sense. Exciting, yet eerie, at the same time.
Greetings science..
this all reminds me of a movie I watched once about a group of med student who experimented with near death experience.. forgot the name of it, but it was starring Julia roberts, keifer sutherland, one of the baldwin kids and kevin bacon.. kevin bacon was supposed to be the atheist in the movie it was interesting indeed...
for me personally, I don't think anyone knows what death is and has come to speak of it.. people when they are about to die, experience delusions amongst other psychological upsets, which is a naturally and universally recorded phenomenon.
I remember my mother's friend, she was a dear lady, toward the end of her days in that hospital people thought she lost it, the more she would tell them of her 'premonitions' the more they got psych consults on her or medicate her as she was so anxious and hysterical, in the hospital her last three days or so, she begged my mom who would visit her daily, to take her out, she said, I see myself leaving her in a wooden box and shipped to the consulate for clearance.. which is exactly what happened..
certainly I believe that death is a rebirth to another life, but we are not meant to know what sort until we actually get there ....
peace
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That was the "Flatliners" movie. I didn't see it straight through, but liked the theme.
Just don't you go try that at home!!
A friend of mine, paleontologist, described the exact same thing happening to him. Interestingly, Christians describe meeting Jesus or Mary, while I think Muslims describe meeting Prophet Muhammad or Allah but there doesn't seem to be much to go on there with so much of this being western research. Makes me wonder whether that's because there is only one "Creator" that goes by many names we can only see as how we see it now because it's more like energy or spirit with no face we can see with our eyes, but can see with our brain produced thoughts, sort of speak.
Last edited by Science101; 09-25-2008 at 03:39 AM.
Reason: typo
That was the "Flatliners" movie. I didn't see it straight through, but liked the theme.
Just don't you go try that at home!!
A friend of mine, paleontologist, described the exact same thing happening to him. Interestingly, Christians describe meeting Jesus or Mary, while I think Muslims describe meeting Prophet Muhammad or Allah but there doesn't seem to be much to go on there with so much of this being western research. Makes me wonder whether that's because there is only one "Creator" that goes by many names we can only see as how we see it now because it's more like energy or spirit with no face we can see with our eyes, but can see with our brain produced thoughts, sort of speak.
Do you have an account of Muslims saying that they have met with Allah or Mohammed PBUH.. in fact in keeping with the religion you are not to see either...
my take on the matter is.. is when there is hypoxia to the brain, there is an increase in delusions.. the brain in and of itself is a mystery.. people behave very oddly advent to any disease process affecting it whether and inflammation of the meninges or the encephalon or even under high fever.. and I don't know if you are familiar with what a centrifuge is? but when you spin something at high speed so that you end up with precipitate and a supernatant, is exactly akin to what happens in the brain in those so-called near death experiences--
No one has died and come to tell us about it... Most scientists by nature are curious and optimistic and wish to find answers for those questions that allude.. And certainly don't want this life to be just it!
In keeping with Islam.. your soul departs from your mouth, and the eye sight follows it.. It is taken by angels which according to what kind of person you were appear to you as either beautiful or grotesque...
those who are wicked, their soul will try to find any place in the body to hide, but the angels will beat out of them by smacking their face and their backside.. surprisingly in science finding these 'bruises' in those areas is simply a matter of venous stasis called livedo reticularis.. the backside is a pressure point.. but ah.. you can wonder indeed if that is the mere pathophysiology of our physical laws.. or there is something even deeper behind it
cheers
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I was doing some reading on OBE, and I remember it saying that the 'tunnel' of light is actually the lamps over the patient's head in the operating room/ambulance shining on the eys.
here is thought that came to my mind while reading the panera doc's story, what if someone 'died' for say, 40 minutes then was 'brought back' using the medicine we might have 10 years down the road, I don't think the neural networks would be that damaged so would it be the same person? just living flesh maybe? I mean isn't it the case that some if not most organs could be kept alive-separately or outside the body-anyway?
I saw the religious NDE info in an old documentary. One who thought they were going to go to Hell, found themselves there. Scared the poop out of them, but they must have been nicer a person after that experience!
I used a centrifuge before. Spins test tubes to generate G force to settle/separate according to density. Can see what you are saying. Once the cell is gone, completely, there is no coming back so there is no way to tell from accounts what happens at that point.
With theoretical "quantum entanglements" and "empty space" still conducting waves/energy coming completely out of body as the subjects reported looking down from the ceiling, may be possible. Certainly can't rule it out. If it turns out to be true that they make it that far out of body then it's like being halfway to where we came from.
This is getting more excited all the time. It just sank into my mind, how astonishing their following consciousness into where I followed intelligence and "intelligent cause" actually is. Suggests we might soon know more about possible afterlife than we ever thought. And my critics who say the theory is not needed in science, look silly again!
You can't 'die' for forty minutes and be brought back.. it is an oxymoron.. unless death is defined differently than how we know it to be defined...
if your brain doesn't get oxygen it dies after 6 minutes.. in fact when you do any cardiopulmonary resuscitation it isn't because you are trying to save the heart, you are actually trying to maintain blood flow to the brain...
in order for brain function in a so-called a state of death, a person will have to be drowned or at least kept in extremely cold temperature.. in which case you need to bring the person to normal temp try to inject them with agents to bring them back from asystole before you can pass that announcement of death on them, because electrical activity of the heart will be there but just not detectable...
Many people are brain dead and kept on respirators etc artifically.. brain cells are arrested in G0 and seldom regenerate.. death however biologically is different from death where your soul departs.. that one there is no scientific measure for.. any more than they have a measure for a headache..
people will pronounce you dead after some functions cease.. but when your soul departs.. that is in Allah's knowledge..
And Allah SWT knows best
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oh: !!
it was interesting indeed...
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