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  1. #1
    Array anatolian's Avatar
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    Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory (OP)


    Salam. Since the subject is heated frequently here and everywhere I thought it is a good idea to discuss its Islamic roots if there is any. I personally believe that evolution is real and it perfectly explains the creation. All the confusion comes from some misinterpretations of Quran and older scriptures. Ibn Khaldun was the first evolutionist in the history of Islam and most probably Darwin was influenced by him. He thought the creation of man does not contradict with the idea of men coming from apes.

    https://muslims4uk.com/2013/01/19/ib...evolution/amp/

    “It should be known that we – May God guide you and us – notice that this world with all the created things in it has a certain order and solid construction. It shows nexuses between causes and things caused, combinations of some parts of creation with others, and transformations of some existent things into others, in a pattern that is both remarkable and endless.

    (…)

    One should then look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. The last stage of minerals is connected with the first stage of plants, such as herbs and seedless plants. The last stage of plants, such as palms and vines, is connected with the first stage of animals, such as snails and shellfish which have only the power of touch. The word “connection” with regard to these created things means that the last stage of each group is fully prepared to become the first stage of the next group.

    The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and to reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of the monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man after (the world of monkeys). This is as far as our (physical) observation extends.

    Now, in the various worlds we find manifold influences. In the world of sensual perception there are certain influences of the motions of the spheres and the elements. In the world of creation there are certain influences of the motions of growth and perception. All this is evidence of the fact that there is something that exercises an influence and is different from the bodily substances. This is something spiritual. It is connected with the created things, because the various worlds must be connected in their existence. This spiritual thing is the soul, which has perception and causes motion.

    Above the soul there must exist something else that gives the soul the power of perception and motion, and that is also connected with it. Its essence should be pure perception and absolute intellection. This is the world of the angels. The soul, consequently, must be prepared to exchange humanity for angelicality, in order actually to become part of the angelic species at certain times in the flash of a moment. This happens after the spiritual essence of the soul has become perfect in actuality, as we shall mention later on“
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    Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    “Either seem as you are or be as you seem” Rumi

  2. #21
    czgibson's Avatar
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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

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    Greetings,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibn Shahid View Post
    http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170...en-us-and-apes

    BBC - Earth - We have still not found the missing link between us and apes
    There was once an animal that was an ancestor to both humans and apes. But what was it like?...
    That's twice now that people have posted links to this article. How do you think it helps your case? If you read beyond the title you'll find that it describes various aspects of the debate surrounding the LCA (last common ancestor). At no point does the article suggest that evolution is not true.

    Peace

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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Greetings,



    No individual could directly observe macroevolution happening, because the magnitude of the time involved in the process is too great. However, there is a huge amount of evidence of transitional forms in the fossil record.

    Partial list of transitional fossils

    Peace
    Even if we grant that every fossil looks the way it is reconstructed and that sequences demonstrating evolution really do exist, fossils cannot count as evidence for evolution. They can merely be consistent with evolutionary theory (which they aren’t!) — not evidence for the theory.
    Why is this so?
    No-one can know if any fossil is related. And because of this, we cannot know if one particular fossil evolved from another. If we cannot know that one particular fossil evolved from another, we cannot use them as proof that one fossil evolved from another (aka evolution)!

    Now some may say that similarities between organisms determine relationships. In other words, similar organisms are probably related. But this reasoning falls flat. Many similarities exist between the marsupial mouse and the placental mouse.However, evolutionary scientists believe that the placental mouse and the horse are more closely related than the placental mouse and the marsupial mouse. In this instance, and in many others, similarities do not equate to relatedness. The argument from similarity as evidence for relatedness is a dead end.

    Moreover many supposed members of your list were found to be absolute hoax. Take these as examples: http://evolutionfactormyth.blogspot....h/label/whales

    And because of your very smart observation, we know that : Neo-darwinism is a Speculation; completely half baked, not testable, not falsifiable and not provable.
    Last edited by Good brother; 02-27-2018 at 04:50 PM.
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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Have a look at some of the previous discussions on this topic linked here:

    Index of useful threads

    Ex-AtheistMuslims.com - No biological man-made life yet – Science is decades behind..


    Also watch this video:


    Index of useful threads
    This is an index of threads centred mainly around the theme of clarifications about Islam. Let us remember that we must give priority to acquiring sou...

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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Greetings,

    Quote Originally Posted by Good brother View Post
    Even if we grant that every fossil looks the way it is reconstructed and that sequences demonstrating evolution really do exist, fossils cannot count as evidence for evolution. They can merely be consistent with evolutionary theory (which they aren’t!) — not evidence for the theory.
    The fossil record provides evidence of transitional forms, as I said. It does not give evidence of direct descent. Until anybody can come up with a better explanatory theory that accounts for the diversity of extant fossils (and the apparent transitional forms) than evolution, then the scientific consensus will remain.

    Moreover many supposed members of your list were found to be absolute hoax. Take these as examples: http://evolutionfactormyth.blogspot....h/label/whales
    By "many", you mean three. Hoax is a bit strong; these are fossils whose characteristics appear to have been interpreted incorrectly. Why you think this in some way disproves evolution is a bit of a mystery. Scientists are usually pleased to discover that they have got something wrong in the light of new evidence, and they adjust their thinking accordingly. What is the problem here?

    Peace

  9. #26
    Mahir Adnan's Avatar
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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    salam,
    Yes. I agree that the fossil record supports evolution.
    then why bbc said that, there is lack of evidence

    well,let's put Harun yahya aside.though Dawkins ran away from him.however,this link may help
    DNA of Human and chimpanzee

    DNA of Human and chimpanzee
    Atheists claim that chimp and human possess 98% similar DNA. But truth is,there lies a huge difference. Because, calculation of percentage is not accur...
    Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Leave me alone. Let me serve this ummah anonymously.
    Truth has come, and falsehood has departed. Indeed is falsehood, [by nature], ever bound to depart."(verse 17:81)

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    czgibson's Avatar
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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Greetings,

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahir Adnan View Post
    salam,
    then why bbc said that, there is lack of evidence
    Because you don't understand what you're reading. The "missing link" or last common ancestor between apes and humans has not yet been discovered. Plenty of apparently transitional fossils have.

    well,let's put Harun yahya aside.
    Yes, let's.

    though Dawkins ran away from him.
    Dawkins didn't run away from anybody. He's a scientist. He doesn't debate any creationists, because creationism has nothing to do with science. Having said that, I think a debate between Dawkins and Yahya could be quite interesting.

    however,this link may help
    DNA of Human and chimpanzee
    This is all a matter of different counting methods, as explained here.

    Peace

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    Alamgir's Avatar
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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Greetings,



    That's twice now that people have posted links to this article. How do you think it helps your case? If you read beyond the title you'll find that it describes various aspects of the debate surrounding the LCA (last common ancestor). At no point does the article suggest that evolution is not true.

    Peace
    It says we have not found the missing link, which weakens your case that homo sapiens came from apes significantly

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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibn Shahid View Post
    It says we have not found the missing link, which weakens your case that homo sapiens came from apes significantly
    Assalam alaikum

    The argument that ‘These fossils are transitional’ comes up quite regularly, but it's evidently flawed. Actually, this is no argument at all. It must assume transitional fossils exist (i.e. evolution theory/Neo-darwinism is true) in the first place to conclude that these fossils are transitional. So one must assume evolution theory to prove evolution theory; this is reasoning in a circle. Of course, if Neo-darwinism is true, the fossil of every extinct creature would be transitional — but this cannot be used as evidence for evolution theory.
    Last edited by Good brother; 02-28-2018 at 07:41 PM.
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    Mahir Adnan's Avatar
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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    He doesn't debate any creationists, because creationism has nothing to do with science.
    Dawkins dare to debate priests, but not creationists! indeed, Dawkins is good at making people fool with such superb lame excuse.
    As many others have already pointed out, this result is not wrong, it’s just irrelevant. Well, it might also be wrong. Others have found it difficult to reproduce his results. But even if his analysis is accurate, it is simply the wrong analysis to apply to dating the last common ancestor.
    I quoted this from the you have given. it seems that,your link is supporting my post too. then what's the point of claiming ape as our ancestor!!!
    Last edited by Mahir Adnan; 03-01-2018 at 12:47 PM.
    Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Leave me alone. Let me serve this ummah anonymously.
    Truth has come, and falsehood has departed. Indeed is falsehood, [by nature], ever bound to depart."(verse 17:81)

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    czgibson's Avatar
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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Greetings,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibn Shahid View Post
    It says we have not found the missing link, which weakens your case that homo sapiens came from apes significantly
    If that were true, don't you think the article would have mentioned it? Why post a pro-evolution article when you're trying to oppose it?

    The argument that ‘These fossils are transitional’ comes up quite regularly, but it's evidently flawed. Actually, this is no argument at all. It must assume transitional fossils exist (i.e. evolution theory/Neo-darwinism is true) in the first place to conclude that these fossils are transitional. So one must assume evolution theory to prove evolution theory; this is reasoning in a circle. Of course, if Neo-darwinism is true, the fossil of every extinct creature would be transitional — but this cannot be used as evidence for evolution theory.
    There certainly appear to be transitional forms in the fossil record, consistent with evolutionary theory. What is your alternative explanation? God created all these creatures and then made the vast majority of them exitinct? Why would an omniscient being do something as pointless as that?

    Dawkins dare to debate priests, but not creationists! indeed, Dawkins is good at making people fool with such superb lame excuse.
    Debating with creationists is like arguing with someone who believes the moon is made of cheese - it's just an obviously ludicrous proposition, so I can see why Dawkins couldn't be bothered to do it. However, as I say, I would still like to see him debate Harun Yahya if only to see Yahya humiliate himself in public.

    I quoted this from the you have given. it seems that,your link is supporting my post too. then what's the point of claiming ape as our ancestor!!!
    Again, you don't appear to understand the words you're reading. Never mind.

    Peace

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    Eric H's Avatar
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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Greetings and peace be with you czgibson;
    What is your alternative explanation? God created all these creatures and then made the vast majority of them exitinct? Why would an omniscient being do something as pointless as that?
    Both you and I will be extinct within the next century, why would God do something as pointless as that?

    The question of evolution is not a big deal either way. I think the greater question is how could the universe and life come to be without a Creator God?

    In the spirit of searching for God
    Eric
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    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Greetings,



    If that were true, don't you think the article would have mentioned it? Why post a pro-evolution article when you're trying to oppose it?
    They mentioned it in the title lol, was that not a good enough mention?

    You don't have any concrete proof of macro-evolution, only things that are consistent with it. Fossils looking similar is not concrete proof for common ancestry, one could argue they look similar as they are adapted to carrying out similar functions, or the fact that there are many creatures that despite looking similar, are not that closely related. Genetics is not an argument either, since one could simply argue God made the creatures with similar materials or that (again) they are designed to carry out similar functions.

    Anyway, I don't have a personal problem with macro-evolution as a whole since it works, my problem is saying Homo-Sapiens evolved from another creature. Unless you can give me concrete proof, I will not even entertain such a ridiculous notion, especially when you consider how unique humans are to the rest of the living creatures on the planet, especially in terms of intelligence and emotions.
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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahir Adnan;2985389[TABLE="class: grid, width: 100%, align: center"
    We've got more in common with a banana
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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibn Shahid View Post
    They mentioned it in the title lol, was that not a good enough mention?

    You don't have any concrete proof of macro-evolution, only things that are consistent with it. Fossils looking similar is not concrete proof for common ancestry, one could argue they look similar as they are adapted to carrying out similar functions, or the fact that there are many creatures that despite looking similar, are not that closely related. Genetics is not an argument either, since one could simply argue God made the creatures with similar materials or that (again) they are designed to carry out similar functions.

    Anyway, I don't have a personal problem with macro-evolution as a whole since it works, my problem is saying Homo-Sapiens evolved from another creature. Unless you can give me concrete proof, I will not even entertain such a ridiculous notion, especially when you consider how unique humans are to the rest of the living creatures on the planet, especially in terms of intelligence and emotions.
    You have to remember that evolutionary model or any scientific model for that matter will never talk about God simply because it presupposes naturalism. It has nothing to say beyond that.
    Last edited by Zafran; 03-02-2018 at 01:35 AM.
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    Do you think the pious don't sin?

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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    You have to remember that evolutionary model or any scientific model for that matter will never talk about God simply because it presupposes naturalism. It has nothing to say beyond that.
    which is not wrong.
    everything has a logical explanation...if you search and investigate you will find the answer.

    Q: How does wind work?
    A: Allah makes that possible.
    Q: yeah, but can we understand the proces how this works?
    A: of course, Allah makes a high pressure area and a low pressure area somewhere, and the wind is just air particles going from high to low pressure.
    Q: how does Allah make high and low pressure area's?
    A:etc.

    you know where this is going right?
    Of course Allah is behind every action because he makes it possible.
    You can answer almost every question with "Allah makes that possible" which of course would be a correct answer, but that does not improve us understanding the logic behind it.
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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Debating with creationists is like arguing with someone who believes the moon is made of cheese -
    it seems,Debating with priests, is not like arguing with someone who believes the moon is made of cheese!!! still, I am not convinced. try other arguments.
    you don't appear to understand the words you're reading.
    I will be happy, if you help me to understand.. && I will be happier, if you find out any lie that I have made in my thread(in the link I gave you on dna of man and ape)
    please, let me know if I miss any fossil.
    Human fossil record and others
    Last edited by Mahir Adnan; 03-02-2018 at 07:17 PM.
    Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Leave me alone. Let me serve this ummah anonymously.
    Truth has come, and falsehood has departed. Indeed is falsehood, [by nature], ever bound to depart."(verse 17:81)

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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    which is not wrong.
    everything has a logical explanation...if you search and investigate you will find the answer.

    Q: How does wind work?
    A: Allah makes that possible.
    Q: yeah, but can we understand the proces how this works?
    A: of course, Allah makes a high pressure area and a low pressure area somewhere, and the wind is just air particles going from high to low pressure.
    Q: how does Allah make high and low pressure area's?
    A:etc.

    you know where this is going right?
    Of course Allah is behind every action because he makes it possible.
    You can answer almost every question with "Allah makes that possible" which of course would be a correct answer, but that does not improve us understanding the logic behind it.
    There is one thing understanding Allah swt Sunan of how the Universe works - a different matter on how our perception,theories and models of the way the universe works.

    If these models are useful and have the best explanation of the apparent phenomena with great predictive power - then that is practical. However science keeps adapting to new data and sometimes totally ditches old models for newer models (paradigm shift).

    examples of these are the Geo centric model for the Helio centric model
    Explanation of gravity Newton vs Einstein.
    Time fixed or Einstein theory of relativity
    evolutionary Biology
    Tectonic plates
    Quantity mechanics
    Qualitative to the Quantitative.

    so we need to be careful what we state as "true" according to the data we have. Instead we should state its the best explanation of what we have of the data (abductive reasoning).
    Last edited by Zafran; 03-03-2018 at 05:04 AM.
    Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    There is one thing understanding Allah swt Sunan of how the Universe works - a different matter on how our perception,theories and models of the way the universe works.

    If these models are useful and have the best explanation of the apparent phenomena with great predictive power - then that is practical. However science keeps adapting to new data and sometimes totally ditches old models for newer models (paradigm shift).

    examples of these are the Geo centric model for the Helio centric model
    Explanation of gravity Newton vs Einstein.
    Time fixed or Einstein theory of relativity
    evolutionary Biology
    Tectonic plates
    Quantity mechanics
    Qualitative to the Quantitative.

    so we need to be careful what we state as "true" according to the data we have. Instead we should state its the best explanation of what we have of the data (abductive reasoning).
    Which is also not wrong. Science is just a tool for us to try to understand Allahs creation. We continously try to develop theories and formulas for every unknown phenomenon. Our formulas and theories are just an approximation of the reality. But that is good enough for us to work with...until someone comes along and develops a more accurate formula. That is how it works.
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    Re: Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory

    These threads are still trending on islamicboard

    science says ‘I’m interestied in processes which is why I ask “how” and nothing else’

    islam says ‘I’m interested in reason and also process which is why I ask “why” first and “how” second’

    science is only a tool (as mentioned above) and science is never concerned with truth or reason, only process - a one trick pony.

    now, back to my ice cream sandwich nom nom nom
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