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  1. #1
    Array Eric H's Avatar
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    How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without God? (OP)


    Science please.

    The creation of the universe is history, whatever we choose to believe cannot change history.

    Evolution is a fact.
    It’s an observed and testable fact about the universe.
    Please can you give the science to explain how the eye and the skeletal system evolved without any help from God?
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    How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without God?

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

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    chalks75's Avatar
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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

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    Quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman View Post
    @chalks75
    Welcome back, nice to see you back here
    What amazes me is that people can believe in unseen things like Coronavirus but they can’t believe in God who created everything including this minuscule bacteria who has put the entire world in a lockdown for several months by now. Man can claim whatever he wants but at the end of the day God shows them over and over again that if He wants He can destroy us will the blink of an eye. It is His mercy that we still have a chance to correct our ways and turn back to Him.
    You can see viruses,
    You just need a microscope.

    I know you believe that a god created everything, that’s your religion.

    The Coronavirus is not a bacteria, it’s a virus.

    Are you saying this virus was send by god, and is spreading with his blessing ?

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    chalks75's Avatar
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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    Hi Chalks, I guess you must hear some distressing stories in your job.



    Your life slows down as you get older, I think this gives you more opportunity to reflect and ponder.



    When you repeat the same random direction 176 times, I think it would constitute habitual behaviour. If it randomly mutated say ten times in the same direction, you might say there was a certain amount of luck involved. When you repeat 176 steps in the same direction; that seems to push the meaning of both luck and random.



    Understandable.



    I think this is where you would need some natural change to happen, so random mutation would would change course and happily go another 362 steps in another direction. The lens would then need another five changes in direction to make up the 1,829 incremental steps. Evolution says that random mutation and selection have no goals, but this process does seem goal driven to me.

    The eye lens would have evolved in the seas, I can't think of many natural forces in the sea that could affect change. There are currents moving chemicals around, changes in temperature, changes in light, possibly lightening. What else would cause random mutation to change direction? And we have not mentioned how optic nerves, the brain and muscles would need to adapt at the same rate.

    I truthfully do not know why Nilsson and Pelgar wrote this paper, because in their summing up they say. 'One would expect most eye lens to be useless without advanced neural processing and this being relayed to the muscles'. By their own admission they know how flawed their research is. What I struggle to understand is how this research is seen as important by others, and they don't question the gaps.
    Hi Eric
    I do hear some distressing stories in my job,
    There are quite a few people that have fallen on hard times that were quite happy and settled a few months ago, people that are not used to deprivation.
    I also see the good side of humanity, the number of people donating money, food, time, vehicles fills my heart with joy.
    Two hands hands helping, is better than a 1000 hands praying.

    How are you getting by, do you have people around you, helping you out ?

    When you repeat the same random direction 176 times, I think it would constitute habitual behaviour.

    The mutations are random, but the selection process is not, natural selection, always selects what is beneficial.

    So the direction ( whatever direction that is ) is the direction that is most beneficial.

    We only see the results of the beneficial selections, all the others are out bred or die.

    Evolution says that random mutation and selection have no goals, but this process does seem goal driven to me.

    It’s true, there is no goal, it’s a blind process
    The mutations are random, offspring differ slightly form their parents, who differ slightly from their parents etc etc
    It’s these slight changes, and how they effect the organisms to preform in nature ( pass on their genes determine what gets selects )

    The lens probably did evolve in the sea,
    Even if there were no environmental impact on the organism, there are still genetic difference between parent and offspring

  5. #83
    chalks75's Avatar
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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    Hi chalks, I was just going back over some of the older posts and noticed these.



    When I look at this, I try and think of a time billions of years ago when there was no life. Then I try and imagine single cell life with no brain and no light sensitive cells. This is where the journey of evolution would need to start.



    Same question again, four billion years ago there were no barrels or taps, so how did evolution produce them (light cells, brains, etc.)
    Good questions
    Evolution applies to life once it has started,
    Abiogenesis is the study of how life started,
    That is a separate field of sciences.

    If natural selection always selects for what is beneficial,
    Then having a eye and brain must be more beneficial that not.

  6. #84
    Eric H's Avatar
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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    Hi chalks,
    We also come into contact with deprivation, sadly it is everywhere. Again we see the good in people when they rally round together to help out.

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Two hands hands helping, is better than a 1000 hands praying.
    I have witnessed amazing things happen through prayer. A few years ago in our town, the churches recognised increasing poverty. about a dozen or so from various churches met together to pray' after praying it was decided we should open up a food bank and it happened, it has now been running for several years staffed by unpaid church volunteers.

    Homelessness has been an increasing problem, again people from our churches prayed, and after about three years we opened up our first shelter, we now have four houses for the homeless with some paid staff and also volunteers. In the last year we have an interfaith group who are looking to do more of this kind of work together.

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Abiogenesis is the study of how life started,
    That is a separate field of sciences.
    I think abiogenesis is the study of how the first of anything started. The first brain cell, light sensitive cells, muscles, there has to be thousands if not millions of things that had to start a first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Evolution applies to life once it has started,
    As you have explained, the word evolution means that something has to exist first before it can evolve.

    Until light sensitive cells / patch come into existence, we can't talk about how they evolved. Nilsson recognised this as a problem and bypassed it by saying we shall start with a ready made light sensitive patch. Darwin had this same problem, until there was a finch with a beak, there would be no beak to evolve any further.

    Whilst I accept evolution as a fact; it cannot explain how the first of anything came to be. Only after the first happens, then evolution can kick in.

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    The lens probably did evolve in the sea,
    Even if there were no environmental impact on the organism, there are still genetic difference between parent and offspring
    There would have been a time when both parents did not have any kind of light sensitive cells, limbs. muscles, brains etc; then what happened?
    How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without God?

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    You can see viruses,
    You just need a microscope.

    I know you believe that a god created everything, that’s your religion.

    The Coronavirus is not a bacteria, it’s a virus.

    Are you saying this virus was send by god, and is spreading with his blessing ?
    I know it can be seen by a microscope but have you seen it? If not, why are you taking the precautions?

  9. #86
    CuriousonTruth's Avatar
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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    So evolution is incremental change but also it can change one species to another like dinosaurs into birds?

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    Eric H's Avatar
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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    Hi chalks;

    How are you, we haven't heard from you for a while.

    Regards
    Eric
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    How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without God?

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

  11. #88
    Eric H's Avatar
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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    As our friend chalks has not replied for a while; I would just like to sum up the main points so far.

    There is no science to show how the universe came to be. If the Big Bang happened science cannot go any further back.

    There is no science to show how life started.

    Evolution means that something has to exist first before it can evolve and change. There is no science to show how light sensitive cells first came into existence. There is no science to show how the first brain cells, optic nerves, muscles or bones came to be. There are probably thousands if not millions of things that have to come into existence before evolution and natural selection get the chance to work.

    The last 87 replies have not shown any science to show how any of this could happen without God.

    In the spirit of searching for God

    Eric
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    How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without God?

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

  12. #89
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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    In Surāh al-Tūr (35/36), Allah ta'ala says:

    أَمْ خُلِقُوا مِنْ غَيْرِ شَيْءٍ أَمْ هُمُ الْخَالِقُونَ ۰أَمْ خَلَقُوا السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ بَل لَّا يُوقِنُونَ

    “Were they created from nothing, or are they creators themselves? Or [if as they say, Allāh did not create everything, then] did they [themselves] create the heavens and the earth? The fact is that they have no conviction”.

    From the aforementioned verse, four scenarios - explicit and implicit - can be inferred:

    1. Creation was created from nothing. ‘من غير شيء’ can have a few interpretations: created without any purpose, created without a creator or created from nothing, as mentioned by Imām al-Rāzī. The translation is based on the latter interpretation;
    2. Creation are creators of themselves;
    3. Everything being created by a created being;
    4. And, finally, everything being created by an uncreated being.

    Now, let’s discuss the first scenario:
    Read more on this link: https://ahlussunnah.boards.net/threa...d-yasir-hanafi
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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    The last 87 replies have not shown any science to show how any of this could happen without God.
    The existence of Allah is undeniable. Some people believe that because you were raised with a religion, you will accept the existence of God (Allah).
    But that's not true. Adam 'alayhi salaam is aware of it, and Allah has made all Adam's descendants, including us, also aware of this.

    And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify concerning themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?"
    They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." Surah Al-Araf 172


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    How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without God?

    Jabir bin 'Abdullah narrated that the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w) said:'A slave (of Allah) shall not believe until he believes in Al-Qadar, its good and its bad, such that he knows that what struck him would not have missed him, and that what missed him would not have struck him." (Jami 'at Tirmidhi)

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    Ümit's Avatar
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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    As our friend chalks has not replied for a while; I would just like to sum up the main points so far.

    The last 87 replies have not shown any science to show how any of this could happen without God.

    In the spirit of searching for God

    Eric
    nice sum up eric...just your last sentence bothers me. Science does not exclude God. Even if science WAS able to explain various points in your sum up in a logical way...this still DOES NOT prove that God does not exist...He could still be there in the background.
    | Likes Eric H liked this post

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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    Greetings and peace be with you Ümit;

    nice sum up eric...just your last sentence bothers me. Science does not exclude God.
    This was intended for our friend chalk to answer, he seems to acknowledge that science and logic proves there is no God, so please show us the science. So far there does not seem to be anything convincing.

    Even if science WAS able to explain various points in your sum up in a logical way...this still DOES NOT prove that God does not exist...
    God created all that is seen and unseen. When scientists find out how God created the universe, they will know the truth.

    I pray that you are feeling blessed through Ramadan, and all is well in Germany.

    Eric
    How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without God?

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

  17. #93
    chalks75's Avatar
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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    As our friend chalks has not replied for a while; I would just like to sum up the main points so far.

    There is no science to show how the universe came to be. If the Big Bang happened science cannot go any further back.

    There is no science to show how life started.

    Evolution means that something has to exist first before it can evolve and change. There is no science to show how light sensitive cells first came into existence. There is no science to show how the first brain cells, optic nerves, muscles or bones came to be. There are probably thousands if not millions of things that have to come into existence before evolution and natural selection get the chance to work.

    The last 87 replies have not shown any science to show how any of this could happen without God.

    In the spirit of searching for God

    Eric
    Hi Eric
    Sorry I have not replied Eric ,
    I’ve had two deaths in the family, not from coronavirus.
    I’ve not forgotten about our conversation.
    | Likes Eric H liked this post

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    Ümit's Avatar
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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Hi Eric
    Sorry I have not replied Eric ,
    I’ve had two deaths in the family, not from coronavirus.
    I’ve not forgotten about our conversation.
    i'm sorry for your loss chalks. deaths in the family is never easy. especially when they were close to you or when you were used to them being around you.
    but death is the only thing which is a guarantee to all of us that we know about our future. it will happen to all of us... without exception. we can only hope it will be a peacefull death...and without suffering.
    we have a saying in Turkish:
    may God give us all deaths in the right order.
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    Eric H's Avatar
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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    Hi chalks;
    I am so sorry to hear about the bereavements in your family, I hope you are able to support each other during these sad times.

    May God bless you and those you love and care for.

    Eric
    How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without God?

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

  21. #96
    chalks75's Avatar
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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    i'm sorry for your loss chalks. deaths in the family is never easy. especially when they were close to you or when you were used to them being around you.
    but death is the only thing which is a guarantee to all of us that we know about our future. it will happen to all of us... without exception. we can only hope it will be a peacefull death...and without suffering.
    we have a saying in Turkish:
    may God give us all deaths in the right order.
    Thank you for you kind words umit
    They were both elderly relatives, they lived a full life.
    I’m more upset for the people they left behind,
    Death is the price we pay for living
    Nothing certain but Death and taxes.

  22. #97
    chalks75's Avatar
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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    Hi chalks;
    I am so sorry to hear about the bereavements in your family, I hope you are able to support each other during these sad times.

    May God bless you and those you love and care for.

    Eric
    Thank you Eric
    Death is never easy,
    I feel more for my parents,
    My mum is taking in particularly hard,
    We have, as we always do, come together as a family to try and support each other.
    Thank you for your kind words.

    I’ve not forgotten our conversation, it will have to go in the back burner for a few weeks .

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    Eric H's Avatar
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    Re: How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without Go

    Hi chalks,
    Look after each other, family comes first.

    May God bless you and your family,
    Eric
    How could the universe and life start without God, how did life evolve without God?

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.


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