New atheist

To be honest, the Quran isn't all that positive towards unbelievers like me - I'm guessing that there is a small number of people that might take that as a justification to be a little abusive.

Salaam

@Junon - pygo was also going on (after years of spending hours on islamicboard) about how he was "curious as to why a girl who he dated online turned out to be a Muslim when he met her (like it was some sort of blind date) and then when they happened to go to the beach together - she wore a bikini...... and whether it was normal and acceptable and ....... basically a bunch of meat waving sexually illustrious stories apparently aimed at debasing the mind "look! tits! nice! I say fun! You say Islam say no good! people then stop thinking because i've hacked their baser animalistic instinct"

This is quite perceptive. Yes internet atheists do tend towards degenerate ways of thinking, most sane people will keep it to themselves but they seem to have uncontrollable urge to pollute a forums like this with their ‘mindset’. It’s a type of exhibitionism. Just like this thread in fact.

That was pretty funny

It reminds you of someone does it not?

format_quote Originally Posted by nosmarter

Thanks Al Khorasani, I appreciate it. I'm actually pleasantly surprised by how nice and welcoming the majority of most members here have been so far. In every group you're going to have a few that are going to be particularly virulent; it's just the way it is. Not much you and I can do about that.
That said, we need to keep in mind that no matter how bad someone's intentions are coming here, the most they can do is post words in a forum. If it's especially offensive, the moderators I'm sure are quick to take care of it.

A virtue signaler as well, this guy is text book.

format_quote Originally Posted by umie

But you don't know whether he is a troll or not...what if he really is sincere? You could be the one helping him one step closer to the truth.
If he turns out to be a troll...then he will be banned soon and you will loose nothing.
So I do not understand the hostility we are showing here.
That is not the attitude a Muslim should promote.
We do not throw the first stone.
But that is my opinion.

Its experience sister, over the years dealing with these types you realise many who come on this forum are looking to troll, cause trouble and are patently insincere, personally they are some of the ugliest mindsets I have ever encountered. Over time you learn how they operate and figure out the ones who are open and those who are out to cause trouble.

I’m sorry to say this one looks like trouble, his first post gave him away, typical internet atheist talking points, so we have to be firm and disciplined and let him know were not tolerating any of his BS, as ABz2000 says

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000

@umie - he'll know that members are on the troll hunt and he'll hopefully be straightforward and sincere (if he knows sincerity) in his questions rather than spicing them up with flowery illusionist propaganda

Like I said I’m happy to be proved wrong but I’m not holding my breath.

format_quote Originally Posted by nosmarter

To be honest, the Quran isn't all that positive towards unbelievers like me - I'm guessing that there is a small number of people that might take that as a justification to be a little abusive.

The very purpose of the Quraan is to warn against being an unbeliever...they reject the very word of God. So you cannot expect the Quraan to be positive towards unbelievers.
But in the end even unbelievers are humans and should not be wronged. Especially not if they did not do anything wrong.

Assalamualaikum, brothers and sisters, peace and blessings to you all. My humble request is not to indulge in irrational arguments and passing judgement. Dear please ask questions or whatever is in your mind you want to discuss regarding religion in general and Islam in particular.

May Allah (swt) protect us all from going astray.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

New atheist still exist? Kids still identify with them? I thought you guys were losing out to the alt right and progressives.

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Who knows? I sure don't


The Quran warns against atheists because they are wrong - I'm sure you feel the same about theists.

Yeah, but I love speaking to theists of all faiths. I never recall feeling hostility towards individual theists - and I especially wouldn't call any of them names. I feel a great deal of empathy for people of faith. All beings, even simple organisms have a strong instinct for self-preservation - and they do all they can to avoid imminent dangers to their lives. But we humans are the only ones that have to face the inevitability of death sometime in the future. That has to have a profound effect on all of us. I can understand the need for reassurance that we don't actually die, but that we continue forever along with our loved ones.

There is no way I'm going to be hostile towards anyone who has chosen to unload that burden from their minds with religion. It's a brutally heavy load we humans have to carry and it gets heavier as we get older. It's also why I think some theists react with anger at my presence here. Some Christians do the same (although far, far less than Muslims). I think that religion becomes and integral part of many peoples' identity and their sense of their place in the universe. The idea that there are people like me walking around unwilling to legitimize this point of view could be seen as threat to some. Others, as I see here, feel no threat at all from me - I'm guessing because they're very secure in their convictions.

This strong identification with their religion is the reason why I would never seek to "convert" someone out of their beliefs. I personally think that's dangerous as someone like me has no "happy heaven" to offer as an alternative.

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Thank you very much, Saadullah. I appreciate the kind words.

I just realized something .. when I posted "New Atheist" on this thread I meant that I'm a new member and that I'm an atheist - not that I'm one of the people in the "new atheists" movement! My apologies for any misunderstanding!

format_quote Originally Posted by nosmarter

Yeah, but I love speaking to theists of all faiths. I never recall feeling hostility towards individual theists - and I especially wouldn't call any of them names. I feel a great deal of empathy for people of faith. All beings, even simple organisms have a strong instinct for self-preservation - and they do all they can to avoid imminent dangers to their lives. But we humans are the only ones that have to face the inevitability of death sometime in the future. That has to have a profound effect on all of us. I can understand the need for reassurance that we don't actually die, but that we continue forever along with our loved ones.

There is no way I'm going to be hostile towards anyone who has chosen to unload that burden from their minds with religion. It's a brutally heavy load we humans have to carry and it gets heavier as we get older. It's also why I think some theists react with anger at my presence here. Some Christians do the same (although far, far less than Muslims). I think that religion becomes and integral part of many peoples' identity and their sense of their place in the universe. The idea that there are people like me walking around unwilling to legitimize this point of view could be seen as threat to some. Others, as I see here, feel no threat at all from me - I'm guessing because they're very secure in their convictions.

This strong identification with their religion is the reason why I would never seek to "convert" someone out of their beliefs. I personally think that's dangerous as someone like me has no "happy heaven" to offer as an alternative.

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Thank you very much, Saadullah. I appreciate the kind words.

That is quite a noble thought there, I must say. However I have to say it is only partly true what you are saying. Yes, religion lightens the burden of the knowledge of death, but that is NOT the reason why we believe.
We believe in what we believe because we are convinced of it. Everything points towards a creator. it is the most logical answer.

What I want to ask you is, what makes you so convinced that you do not believe in God. To us, that makes no sense.

Let us have a respectfull discussion with each other about this.

Umie,

Of course. It's a perfectly reasonable question. I'll do my best to answer. Let me just address the issue of God without getting into the specifics of any faith:

There is a standard of evidence that I need to accept that something is true - and I'm pretty sure this is the case for all of us for things that don't touch on religion. The evidence I might have for something may not be 100% perfect, but it does have to meet a certain threshold at least. So for example, the existence of Zeus, faeries, unicorns, goblins, and of course God all share the same level of paltry evidence that falls way below any acceptable standards. I can't prove any these things don't exist, but I'm pretty confident that based on the lack of evidence that they actually don't. And trust me, I'm always eager to hear anyone's evidence but as time goes on, I haven't heard anything new anymore.

I'm not denying that people truly feel like they have had a personal experience with God, but that hardly qualifies as evidence since this experience can't be tested or repeated and also because the experience can plausibly be explained by other things. The fact that people of all religions including whacky cults will offer the same explanation of their own deity makes it seem even more suspect to me.

The level of suffering in the world is inconsistent with the notion of a loving, caring God. It's one thing to say that some people are responsible for their own suffering, but it's quite another when small children, innocent people, animals are subjected to horrible suffering and death. The excuses religious people of all faiths make are to me just that: excuses. None of them do a remotely good job of offering a decent explanation beyond "God works in mysterious ways".

I'm happy to expand or clarify on this, Umie. Don't be shy!

format_quote Originally Posted by nosmarter

Umie,

Of course. It's a perfectly reasonable question. I'll do my best to answer. Let me just address the issue of God without getting into the specifics of any faith:

There is a standard of evidence that I need to accept that something is true - and I'm pretty sure this is the case for all of us for things that don't touch on religion. The evidence I might have for something may not be 100% perfect, but it does have to meet a certain threshold at least. So for example, the existence of Zeus, faeries, unicorns, goblins, and of course God all share the same level of paltry evidence that falls way below any acceptable standards. I can't prove any these things don't exist, but I'm pretty confident that based on the lack of evidence that they actually don't. And trust me, I'm always eager to hear anyone's evidence but as time goes on, I haven't heard anything new anymore.

I'm not denying that people truly feel like they have had a personal experience with God, but that hardly qualifies as evidence since this experience can't be tested or repeated and also because the experience can plausibly be explained by other things. The fact that people of all religions including whacky cults will offer the same explanation of their own deity makes it seem even more suspect to me.

The level of suffering in the world is inconsistent with the notion of a loving, caring God. It's one thing to say that some people are responsible for their own suffering, but it's quite another when small children, innocent people, animals are subjected to horrible suffering and death. The excuses religious people of all faiths make are to me just that: excuses. None of them do a remotely good job of offering a decent explanation beyond "God works in mysterious ways".

I'm happy to expand or clarify on this, Umie. Don't be shy!

We have for example the Quran and how it is revealed. We all know that our Prophet sas was illiterate and could not write or read. yet, somehow he dictated the complete Quraan to the people word for word and in such perfection that nothing in the Quraan contradicts with science and the knowledge we have today. you may find that insufficient as evidence for the existence of God, but what is the alternative.
no God means everything happened on its own by coincidence.

I pointed this out here several times, and I will do it again for you:

we humans arevery bad in estimating chances...that is why the lottery always makes so much money. we have this idea of "if there is a chance that some event will happen, then no matter how small that chance is, if you wait enough, it will happen"
this statement seems reasonable, but in this case it really is not.
we know the Earth is 14 billion years old. in those 14 billions years somehow molecules must come together under exact right conditions to form very complex DNA molecules. these multiple DNA molecules must find each other to form a gen. only then a cell can be formed...still all on its own...and the environment must stay perfect all the time...only then multiple cells can join to form a simple body.
in the meantime if the process gets disrupted by am impact of a meteor...all effort is lost and must start all over.

but even if a body has been formed (14billion years is way too short for that chance to happen, but ok)...totally on its own...then still it just is a dead body...it is not alive...so you still have no explanation of how life starts.
out of chaos does not come order on it's own. I have never found a marmelade jar out in the desert...perfectly formed on its own...where you could just screw a lid on and it perfectly fits. a jar is just glas (melted sand)...plenty of it in the desert, yet it never forms into a simple marmelade jar on its own.
So you have multiple dilemma's here.

Personally I think the Option of God is way more logic than this explanation. If you would win the national lottery jackpot every month for the rest of your life...that chance is even bigger than this...so what are we talking about?

So in short, you find the evidence of God not enough...but the alternative which you do value, seems much much worse.

Now with God, there is a reason we cannot prove his existence in the way you want.
We come to this Earth for a test. the very test is to believe in God or not...that is the only objective. If we could prove the existent of God the way you like, then this whole coming to Earth has no use.
The purpose of life has then no use.

But still God made his existence evident with everything around you...and by sending His Books and Prophets and miracles...you just have to acknowledge it.

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format_quote Originally Posted by nosmarter

The level of suffering in the world is inconsistent with the notion of a loving, caring God. It's one thing to say that some people are responsible for their own suffering, but it's quite another when small children, innocent people, animals are subjected to horrible suffering and death. The excuses religious people of all faiths make are to me just that: excuses. None of them do a remotely good job of offering a decent explanation beyond "God works in mysterious ways".

I'm happy to expand or clarify on this, Umie. Don't be shy!

sorry, I forgot about this part. this is a totally different subject. in order to understand this, you need to know a little more about the concept of life.

Again, this world is a test nothing more. we are given the option to choose for a life as nothing or do a test and earn a great life for eternity...so everyone who chose for the last option is waiting for his turn to come to earth and fullfill their test.

some of us will get tested with wealth, orthers not...some will be intelligent or not...will remain healty their entire life, others will become terribly sick or whatever.

Everyone gets tested on his own way. So the world seems unfair...and basically it is really unfair...but this unfairness is just the test...nothing more.
God is testing you...seeing this unfairness in the world...what is your reaction to it? what did you do to change it? Did you help them or did you turn your face away?
Are you abandoning God when you see this unfairness or not? That is your test.

one thing is sure...no one gets a test which he cannot pass.

God designed it to be like this...and He IS a loving God...that he gave us this chance to prove ourselves. even if you have the faith in a God in the weight of a mustard seed, you would earn Heaven.

You may ask yourself "why would God need to test us? isn't he Allknowing?"
Yes, and the answer is...God does not need to test us...this test is not meant for God, it is meant for ourselves.
If God just took us and threw us into Hell, we would complain like "why God? what did we do wrong?"
God will answer like "because I know you better than you know yourself"

But that answer will never satisfy us. By going through this test, we make ourselves witnesses of our own actions and decisions. only then we could understand Gods answer.

God is loving and caring...always listening...He is always there...waiting untill you make the right decision. no matter how bad you lived your life in the past...make one step towards God and He'll be running to you.

format_quote Originally Posted by nosmarter

To be honest, the Quran isn't all that positive towards unbelievers like me

What do you mean by "like you"?

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Khorasani

What do you mean by "like you"?

Well, unbelievers .. I am one, I guess. That's all I meant.

Thanks for taking the time with such a complete response, Umie. I'm somewhat familiar with the argument of creation by chance vs. by design - the Christians I was surrounded by also subscribe to that line of reasoning. I can appreciate the power of the argument since you're absolutely correct that forming a complete enzyme by chance is so small as to be pretty much impossible.

I think that most micro-biologists would point out is that in fact this is a long process with many small incremental steps, all governed by the non-random forces of natural selection and chemistry. The very first stages of could have been no more than simple self-replicating molecules, which might hardly have been called alive at all. But as soon as those come to be, then the process is no longer random. Although the odds of forming an individual peptide are incredibly small, if you take the size of the oceans and the number of molecules available, there would have been several billion "rolls of the dice", so to speak every year. On that basis, he first enzymes could have appeared very quickly. This process of evolution involves certain properties of living matter that prevent us from asserting that the process was accomplished in accordance with the laws of chance. Now, is that what actually happened? Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to say yet, but it does offer a plausible scenario which really doesn't require that there be God for it to happen.

As for the Quran .. maybe it's just me, but I did come across contradictions. Maybe not as many as the Christian bible, but enough for me to suspect there may have been quite a bit of human involvement in its writing. Maybe I have to read more still, but I can't say the book is convincing to me as proof. At least no more than other religious books, anyway. I'm not saying that I know it's wrong or anything because I don't. I'm just saying I'm not seeing the level of evidence you and others see.

As to the morality, I see where you're coming from here too. I would agree to the plausibility of the test. Of course, make me lose my money and see if I still remain honest, or tempt me with an affair and see if I'm able to remain true to my vows, heck make me go blind or lose my lims and see if I'm still faithful - sure I can see that. What I can't see is why small children need to die horrible deaths, for example. My brother in law is a policeman and he witnessed some horrific things that I wish he had never told me about. The ones that bothered me the most and the ones that really affected him psychologically were seeing small children being victimized. I've never heard of a good explanation for why any God would allow such a thing. The children are surely too young to be put to a test like that and to react with anything other than abject terror and despair before dying. I don't expect an answer to this from any theologian of any faith - this has been a nearly insurmountable problem despite many religious scholars bravely tackling this issue. I'm just saying that this is one reason why I don't believe there is a God.

I apologize in advance if this seems morbid, but I didn't know of any other way to express it.

format_quote Originally Posted by nosmarter

Thanks for taking the time with such a complete response, Umie. I'm somewhat familiar with the argument of creation by chance vs. by design - the Christians I was surrounded by also subscribe to that line of reasoning. I can appreciate the power of the argument since you're absolutely correct that forming a complete enzyme by chance is so small as to be pretty much impossible.

I think that most micro-biologists would point out is that in fact this is a long process with many small incremental steps, all governed by the non-random forces of natural selection and chemistry. The very first stages of could have been no more than simple self-replicating molecules, which might hardly have been called alive at all. But as soon as those come to be, then the process is no longer random. Although the odds of forming an individual peptide are incredibly small, if you take the size of the oceans and the number of molecules available, there would have been several billion "rolls of the dice", so to speak every year. On that basis, he first enzymes could have appeared very quickly. This process of evolution involves certain properties of living matter that prevent us from asserting that the process was accomplished in accordance with the laws of chance. Now, is that what actually happened? Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to say yet, but it does offer a plausible scenario which really doesn't require that there be God for it to happen.

Yes I am also familiar with this argument. But even that is really not that plausible as you think. from chaos does not come order on its own. that is why I gave you the example of the marmelade jar...a jar already has all its components together...just melted sand and given form...but it does not happen. The world should be full by now with objects we use nowadays, but naturally formed...deserts should be full with glass pots and vases, wine bottles, whiskey glasses...I am sure no one ever found one.
Mountains should be full with statues of people or animals....naturally eroded in stone...we should find paved roads (even just a few meters) with perfect square stone or marmor tiles in equal size...not of that is ever been found...because chaos does not form order just by its own.
every time archeologes find a part of pots or pans, it always belogs to some sort of ancient civilisation...never natural formed...
or forget all about this...just random rocks in such a formation like the Stonehedge to form a usable year calendar can not be found...just some rocks in a formation..
So, that is the first objection.

The second objection is: you can divide 1 infinite times by 2...the result will be a fracture so small it will aproach the zero...but it will never be zero...always something more than that...likewise, no matter in how small you make your incremental steps, the difference between hardly alive and dead is still too big. the question that rises about your hardly living molecules is: what exactly causes that dead molecule to hardly live? is it something automatic? so if as soon as this molecule gets formed it starts to hardly live automatically? and then the next question...can that molecule die?....and why?
What is exactly the difference between the hardly alive molecule, and it exact dead copy? what element is missing?

Do not get me wrong...I am not against science. I am an electrical engineer and have a great trust in science and technology. If there is anyone on this forum who will defend science and its various theories, it would prabably be me.
This scenario you gave may have happened...but only with the element God in it, the scenario is plausible. God does not have to create in an instant...He may have used these small incremental steps in time to create the Earth...He even can have used the evolution as a tool to create all the diversive life.

What I am saying is...The big bang, and the evolution theory and both very plausible theories...But God is still in the background...those theories still do not exclude God from it.

format_quote Originally Posted by nosmarter

As for the Quran .. maybe it's just me, but I did come across contradictions. Maybe not as many as the Christian bible, but enough for me to suspect there may have been quite a bit of human involvement in its writing. Maybe I have to read more still, but I can't say the book is convincing to me as proof. At least no more than other religious books, anyway. I'm not saying that I know it's wrong or anything because I don't. I'm just saying I'm not seeing the level of evidence you and others see.

That is because you are still missing a lot of basic information.

One time in my younger years I also was occupied with searching for contradictions in the Bible...We Muslims know that the Bible is corrupted and not available in its original form and language.
on the internet, I found many contradictions. some of them looked very obvious. one of those contradictions caught my attention. It was Leviticus 11:3–6 saying:

1. ‘Whatever divides the hoof, and is cloven-footed, chewing the cud, among the animals, that you shall eat.
2. ‘Only, you shall not eat these of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: the camel, for he chews the cud but does not divide the hoof; he is unclean to you.
3. ‘And the rock badger, because he chews the cud, but does not divide the hoof; he is unclean to you.
4. ‘And the hare, because he chews the cud but does not divide the hoof; he is unclean to you.’

My immediate thought: Silly Christians...If this was the word of God, than surely He would know that the rabbit does NOT chew cud...a rabbit has just one stomach.
But I got curious how the rabbit digests his food, and it turns out that a rabbit poops out soft edible pellets first...eats those to digest for a second time and then poops out the harder pellets.
It is not exactly chewing cud...but again...the Bible has undergone too much corruptions and there is this translation error etc...
So there is definitely something true about this.

I no longer search for errors in the Bible anymore after that.

Why I am telling you this story? because contradictions you may find, may look obvious at first. but there is definitely an explanation if you are interested enough to look for it.
Maybe share your contradictions and we go through it together.

format_quote Originally Posted by nosmarter

As to the morality, I see where you're coming from here too. I would agree to the plausibility of the test. Of course, make me lose my money and see if I still remain honest, or tempt me with an affair and see if I'm able to remain true to my vows, heck make me go blind or lose my lims and see if I'm still faithful - sure I can see that. What I can't see is why small children need to die horrible deaths, for example. My brother in law is a policeman and he witnessed some horrific things that I wish he had never told me about. The ones that bothered me the most and the ones that really affected him psychologically were seeing small children being victimized. I've never heard of a good explanation for why any God would allow such a thing. The children are surely too young to be put to a test like that and to react with anything other than abject terror and despair before dying. I don't expect an answer to this from any theologian of any faith - this has been a nearly insurmountable problem despite many religious scholars bravely tackling this issue. I'm just saying that this is one reason why I don't believe there is a God.

I apologize in advance if this seems morbid, but I didn't know of any other way to express it.

No, no need to apogize. you are correct. those kids are too young to be put to a test like this...no doubt about that...but the fact is...it cannot be ruled out. for the suspect is in a difficult position where he needs to get out of. and that innocent child is in his way...so he has the choice what to do with that child...it is His test, not the childs.
In Islam Children untill a certain age, people with down syndrome or other people with brain capacity too small to distinguish between good and bad, are free from the burden of the test. So for them, the test is very easy, but they still come to Earth as a test for some people else.
Again, the concept of this world is unfair...but it is made deliberately like this, and it is just temporary.

Was God able to create a perfect world where no one should have to suffer? yes He was, and He even create it...it is called the Heaven.
Why did God create the bad people? wasn't God able to create people who just automatically choose for the good and not for the bad?
Yes He was. Look at his other creatures, the angels...very powerfull creatures...very strong, fast as lightning...never disobedient.
But despite of that, Humans have a higher rank than the angels, and why?
Because there is one attribute that humans posess and Angels not...and that is free will.
Despite of our weakness and laziness and our freedom of will...we CHOOSE ourselves to believe in God and to be obedient.
Angels cannot choose....they are not programmed to choose...but we humans have a choice, and we choose for the good...and that exactly gives us the higher rank than the angels.

That is why the bad should be present on this world...so we actually have a free will.

That is why those innocent children suffer...because some idiot chooses for the bad and victimises them....he will get what he deserves eventually...if he gets away with it in this world, he will get it in the next but then much much worse.
But eventually, there will be justice for everyone.

Hi Zafran,

Thanks for the response. I'm sure there are atheists who are nihilists and pessimists - I'm glad I'm not one of them! While I don't believe there is any afterlife, I cherish this life now and all the people that are I'm here with. The inevitability of my death gives me purpose in that I only have a short life to experience what the universe has to offer and to make this world a better place. In my view it's miraculous that we're all here, now, speaking on this forum when you consider the sequence of events that had to occur over millions of years to get us to this point. 70 years from now, these posts will be gone, you and I will be gone, other people living in our homes, walking on our streets. But we're here right now, you and I, sharing some ideas. I see you and I and all the people in this world as sharing this short time we have right now which in time will be gone and forgotten. That makes me feel a sense of kinship with everyone. The shortness and wonder of this life makes it even poignant and precious to me.

I see what you're saying about living a Christian life despite not being a Christian. It's an interesting thought which I never really considered, and I paused a bit and thought about that. I guess certain things like monogamy and marriage, the wife taking the name of the husband, and a few other traditions do come from Christianity for sure. That said, I'm not sure that my identity is tied up with Christianity. In fact, not being a Christian in the West really changes nothing. I was thinking more of truly fundamentalist "holy rollers" like we call them in the US who might have been brought up that way, have all their friends in the same church, and who for a time felt like they could count on the afterlife. Or even Mormons, who essentially become ostracized if they cease to believe. Even if I had extraordinary persuasive powers, I'd hesitate to speak to people in that situation because besides the obvious social loss they would suffer, they would also have to contend with a complete reassessment of their previously held beliefs. It's one thing to convert from Christianity to Islam or vice-versa because there is a new community and a new set of beliefs to replace the old ones. But to become atheist .. well, there is really none of that. That was more what I meant.