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  1. #1
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    Decline of the Ottoman Empire (OP)


    Salaam

    Very interesting.

    3 | Likes Samiul123, Simple_Person, Sho Islam liked this post

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    United? What I know was that the Kurds were fighting them what I also know was that other people besides Kurds were very dissatisfied under their rule. That is why the Arabs worked with the west to overthrow them.

    The Orthodox Christianity hated them because of their mentality of wanting to conquer things. As Constantinople with that Hagia Sophia.

    So like I said the decline of the Ummah began just before the mongol invasion of Baghdad. The art is for us as individuals to learn from what has happened and follow the path of Allah. If not, for sure He will humiliate us also. This even has happened right now in the Middle East as Muslims took pride in culture and did wrong to their own family members by forcing marriages or by taking pride as Muslims with their mouths but not by action or defending dictators or throwing away food or taking pride in nationalism etc.etc. To be honest I do not even feel sorry for what is happening to the Ummah because we are fools by not wanting to follow path of Allah. We have deserved this.
    So Ottomans were bad because Kurds were dissatisfied under their rule? Funny. But that's not historically true either. Kurds were ok with the Ottoman rule most of the time.

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    So Ottomans were bad because Kurds were dissatisfied under their rule? Funny. But that's not historically true either. Kurds were ok with the Ottoman rule most of the time.
    No read the complete context. That other brother said ..Muslims were "united", i said no i know of Kurds fighting the Ottomans..in other words there was no speaking of being united. Also indeed Kurds have also fought with the Ottomans, but that doesn't mean people (Muslims in general) were united. Arabs we also were not satisfied as western powers exploited this dissatisfaction in fighting against the Ottoman empire.

    That being said i am not sure how you say "historically not true"..so you are saying all the things Kurds have been telling is they were lying..and Muslims were very satisfied with Ottoman rule from the beginning till the end? Because that is what you are pointing to.

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    No read the complete context. That other brother said ..Muslims were "united", i said no i know of Kurds fighting the Ottomans..in other words there was no speaking of being united. Also indeed Kurds have also fought with the Ottomans, but that doesn't mean people (Muslims in general) were united. Arabs we also were not satisfied as western powers exploited this dissatisfaction in fighting against the Ottoman empire.

    That being said i am not sure how you say "historically not true"..so you are saying all the things Kurds have been telling is they were lying..and Muslims were very satisfied with Ottoman rule from the beginning till the end? Because that is what you are pointing to.
    There might have been some conflicts, I don't know every incident in the Ottoman history but yes Kurds as a people were OK most of the time with the State during more than 400 years of rule.

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    There might have been some conflicts, I don't know every incident in the Ottoman history but yes Kurds as a people were OK most of the time with the State during more than 400 years of rule.
    I do know that in the i believe last 100 year or 50 years of the Ottoman rule Kurds were dissatisfied. As often Kurds have even songs made of those battles. The Arabs off course also clear that they objected the Ottoman rule by the uprising of them.

    The Ottoman empire was the last and the weakest of all the Islamic Caliphates when we talk about religious conquest. Their vision was rather towards conquering instead of religious. As this conquering ambitions we can historically confirm.

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    United? What I know was that the Kurds were fighting them what I also know was that other people besides Kurds were very dissatisfied under their rule. That is why the Arabs worked with the west to overthrow them.

    The Orthodox Christianity hated them because of their mentality of wanting to conquer things. As Constantinople with that Hagia Sophia.

    So like I said the decline of the Ummah began just before the mongol invasion of Baghdad. The art is for us as individuals to learn from what has happened and follow the path of Allah. If not, for sure He will humiliate us also. This even has happened right now in the Middle East as Muslims took pride in culture and did wrong to their own family members by forcing marriages or by taking pride as Muslims with their mouths but not by action or defending dictators or throwing away food or taking pride in nationalism etc.etc. To be honest I do not even feel sorry for what is happening to the Ummah because we are fools by not wanting to follow path of Allah. We have deserved this.
    You focus on their weaknesses and I zero in on backwash of their decline.
    Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Allah (swt) knows best

  9. #26
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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    No read the complete context. That other brother said ..Muslims were "united", i said no i know of Kurds fighting the Ottomans..in other words there was no speaking of being united. Also indeed Kurds have also fought with the Ottomans, but that doesn't mean people (Muslims in general) were united. Arabs we also were not satisfied as western powers exploited this dissatisfaction in fighting against the Ottoman empire.

    That being said i am not sure how you say "historically not true"..so you are saying all the things Kurds have been telling is they were lying..and Muslims were very satisfied with Ottoman rule from the beginning till the end? Because that is what you are pointing to.
    Bro, where did I say they're united....?
    Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Allah (swt) knows best

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    You focus on their weaknesses and I zero in on backwash of their decline.
    Me focusing on their weakness? ..dude, as a Muslim this weakness is the MOST important that one MUST NOT have. You think conquering is considered "strength"?? Allah elevates us and Allah humiliates us..and we ONLY are elevated if we follow the path that Allah has made clear.

    This weakness is the ONLY thing if you say i am a Muslim that is important to NOT have.

    Turks are too proud and look at things from a conquering perspective. Yes conquering MUST take place..but that is conquering of the heart..not of the land by force. Islam is conquering of the heart. This Turks OFTEN FAIL to understand it.
    Last edited by Simple_Person; 06-09-2017 at 12:37 AM.

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    Bro, where did I say they're united....?
    Your words

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    But bro, as long as they remained in power this ummah had its own honour. We were united and now despite being so many countries even blood of Muslims has no importance.

    Nobody says they were very good people.
    But...
    If they had won ww1 , subcontinent would have been a united Muslim country.

  12. #29
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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    Your words
    What I said is related to this "ummah", not ottoman empire.

    We had our own place in the world but after its decline what condition of ummah in the world is, isn't hidden to us.
    Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Allah (swt) knows best

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    Me focusing on their weakness? ..dude, as a Muslim this weakness is the MOST important that one MUST NOT have. You think conquering is considered "strength"?? Allah elevates us and Allah humiliates us..and we ONLY are elevated if we follow the path that Allah has made clear.

    This weakness is the ONLY thing if you say i am a Muslim that is important to NOT have.

    Turks are too proud and look at things from a conquering perspective. Yes conquering MUST take place..but that is conquering of the heart..not of the land by force. Islam is conquering of the heart. This Turks OFTEN FAIL to understand it.
    Despite all their weaknesses the ulama would pray for their victory in war, moreover they appealed the Muslim to donate for them.
    Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Allah (swt) knows best

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    What I said is related to this "ummah", not ottoman empire.

    We had our own place in the world but after its decline what condition of ummah in the world is, isn't hidden to us.
    You said the Ummah was united under the Ottoman Empire..that is how i understood it and i believe that is what you also said..however that still is not true.

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    Despite all their weaknesses the ulama would pray for their victory in war, moreover they appealed the Muslim to donate for them.
    These days there are also Ulama that pray for certain people..that doesn't make them legit you know. Just because somebody is a scholar and how he/she looks at a certain person doesn't make that person suddenly legit.

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    These days there are also Ulama that pray for certain people..that doesn't make them legit you know. Just because somebody is a scholar and how he/she looks at a certain person doesn't make that person suddenly legit.
    It refers to almost all scholars of last century.
    Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Allah (swt) knows best

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    It refers to almost all scholars of last century.
    Ottoman dreams to conquer lands and even if a scholar sooo highly respected supports this conquest, to me he is worthless even if he has given such so many benefits to the people. For me Ulama do not have a "special" status even if they fall in category of ulama if they promote something un-islamic.

    This is a quote of Abu Bakr (ra)

    I have been given the authority over you, and I am not the best of you. If I do well, help me; and if I do wrong, set me right. Sincere regard for truth.
    Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/q...akr219631.html
    In other words the wisdom in this tells us to NOT FOLLOW blindly. Rather every action judge it looking at what Islam finds permissible and what not.

    Some indeed say unity should be persevered, however preserving unity and praising NON-Islamic actions are totally different things. However i am kind of curious where you find this "proof" that the ulama praised or supported the actions of the Ottomans and in which times.

    I will be waiting for the historical records/narrations of those scholars in'sha'Allah.

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    Ottoman dreams to conquer lands and even if a scholar sooo highly respected supports this conquest, to me he is worthless even if he has given such so many benefits to the people. For me Ulama do not have a "special" status even if they fall in category of ulama if they promote something un-islamic.

    This is a quote of Abu Bakr (ra)



    In other words the wisdom in this tells us to NOT FOLLOW blindly. Rather every action judge it looking at what Islam finds permissible and what not.

    Some indeed say unity should be persevered, however preserving unity and praising NON-Islamic actions are totally different things. However i am kind of curious where you find this "proof" that the ulama praised or supported the actions of the Ottomans and in which times.

    I will be waiting for the historical records/narrations of those scholars in'sha'Allah.
    All this is written in Urdu books....
    Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Allah (swt) knows best

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    All this is written in Urdu books....
    =_=!.. English speaking guy..(me). Anyways, for the sake of the argument i say "i believe you", but still that doesn't take away that one cannot choose unity above corruption. Because look at pre-mongol invasion of Baghdad. Was there unity among Muslims? Yes there was..but still destruction came. Unity is important when the Ummah is on the right path, so for the sake of unity one does not argue about something. However when something is done that goes against Islamic principles..news things will creep in to that are also not according to Islamic principles. With that comes the destruction of the Ummah.

    There was i believe a story of a people that Allah had send a angel to destroy them. The angel said to Allah, "ya, Allah there is still a believer among them", Allah replying "start with him"(the destruction). In other words, there might be unity, but when corruption rules the Ummah..then unity is useless as Allah's punishment is coming.

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    =_=!.. English speaking guy..(me). Anyways, for the sake of the argument i say "i believe you", but still that doesn't take away that one cannot choose unity above corruption. Because look at pre-mongol invasion of Baghdad. Was there unity among Muslims? Yes there was..but still destruction came. Unity is important when the Ummah is on the right path, so for the sake of unity one does not argue about something. However when something is done that goes against Islamic principles..news things will creep in to that are also not according to Islamic principles. With that comes the destruction of the Ummah.

    There was i believe a story of a people that Allah had send a angel to destroy them. The angel said to Allah, "ya, Allah there is still a believer among them", Allah replying "start with him"(the destruction). In other words, there might be unity, but when corruption rules the Ummah..then unity is useless as Allah's punishment is coming.
    When unity in ummah is discussed, always it refers to majority of ummah but if it's considered as 100% unity then it's almost impossible.

    In the entire Islamic history (excluding the era of Hz khulafa e rashideen ra) no period can be cited as such.

    I'm not a fan of ottoman empire, nor am interested to defend their weaknesses but what I've understood is that after their decline this ummah has been undergoing perdition and different kind of trials and tribulations.
    Last edited by azc; 06-09-2017 at 08:37 PM.
    Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Allah (swt) knows best

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Another thread on this topic

    Ottoman Collapse; Fall of the Ummah.
    Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Allah (swt) knows best

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    When unity in ummah is discussed, always it refers to majority of ummah but if it's considered as 100% unity then it's almost impossible.

    In the entire Islamic history (excluding the era of Hz khulafa e rashideen ra) no period can be cited as such.

    I'm not a fan of ottoman empire, nor am interested to defend their weaknesses but what I've understood is that after their decline this ummah has been undergoing perdition and different kind of trials and tribulations.
    Like i believe in a earlier comment said, the decline isn't unity, the decline is going away from the path of Allah. Look at many Muslims majority countries..they call themselves Muslims and as a artificial country are united under nationalism and say they are Muslims but are far away from Islam.

    From Pakistan to Indonesia..to Morocco to Saudi etc.. No one right now is proud of the Islam being practiced in the country they are living. Some people dare to say about some gulf states, however western people have infected those places like cockroaches. What i mean by this is they have brought their bad habits with them ..alcohol, disco, prostitution..etc.

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    Like i believe in a earlier comment said, the decline isn't unity, the decline is going away from the path of Allah. Look at many Muslims majority countries..they call themselves Muslims and as a artificial country are united under nationalism and say they are Muslims but are far away from Islam.

    From Pakistan to Indonesia..to Morocco to Saudi etc.. No one right now is proud of the Islam being practiced in the country they are living. Some people dare to say about some gulf states, however western people have infected those places like cockroaches. What i mean by this is they have brought their bad habits with them ..alcohol, disco, prostitution..etc.
    Two points, which you have misunderstopd are to be clarified to you.

    a: If the people are silent on the corruption of the ruling class, it doesn't mean they're "united" on their corruption

    b: If the kingdom or empire comes to an end, it doesn't mean that in all cases it's the punishment by Allah swt.
    Decline of the Ottoman Empire

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