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  1. #1
    IB Oldtimer Array Junon's Avatar
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    Decline of the Ottoman Empire (OP)


    Salaam

    Very interesting.

    3 | Likes Samiul123, Simple_Person, Sho Islam liked this post

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

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    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    Two points, which you have misunderstopd are to be clarified to you.

    a: If the people are silent on the corruption of the ruling class, it doesn't mean they're "united" on their corruption

    b: If the kingdom or empire comes to an end, it doesn't mean that in all cases it's the punishment by Allah swt.
    A: In a previous comment i stated this..

    "There was i believe a story of a people that Allah had send a angel to destroy them. The angel said to Allah, "ya, Allah there is still a believer among them", Allah replying "start with him"(the destruction). In other words, there might be unity, but when corruption rules the Ummah..then unity is useless as Allah's punishment is coming."

    In other words a Muslim MUST speak up. Or else that is the weakest form of imaan..if he only rejects it with his heart. When not speaking up, the corruption doesn't end.

    "
    And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers." Qur'an 2:191

    Why would Allah say "fitna is worse than killing"? So in other words if you do not speak up and let corruption go on..you are doing even more harm.

    B: Do give me examples of them. Because looking at the Qur'an the stories Allah has told us about every time it was due punishment. That being said to give some better examples. The Roman empire, they practiced the usual things of lack of shame, economic corruption, moral corruption..over spending/consumption... In other words a lot of similarities Allah has given us already with the stories of previous people.

    The blessing of a empire lies in walking the straight path. What do i mean by this? Our actions will ALWAYS get a natural reaction. Because we know from some hadith that nature reacts to our actions as one i believe when Aisha(ra) did say something that would be considered as a insult and Rasullah(saws) saying that how small that word to her is, it could turn the whole ocean in to salty i believe.

    So an empire coming to their end is because of Allah, not because..JUST BECAUSE.

    Last edited by Simple_Person; 06-10-2017 at 02:12 PM.

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  4. #42
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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person View Post
    A: In a previous comment i stated this..

    "There was i believe a story of a people that Allah had send a angel to destroy them. The angel said to Allah, "ya, Allah there is still a believer among them", Allah replying "start with him"(the destruction). In other words, there might be unity, but when corruption rules the Ummah..then unity is useless as Allah's punishment is coming."

    In other words a Muslim MUST speak up. Or else that is the weakest form of imaan..if he only rejects it with his heart. When not speaking up, the corruption doesn't end.

    "
    And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers." Qur'an 2:191

    Why would Allah say "fitna is worse than killing"? So in other words if you do not speak up and let corruption go on..you are doing even more harm.

    B: Do give me examples of them. Because looking at the Qur'an the stories Allah has told us about every time it was due punishment. That being said to give some better examples. The Roman empire, they practiced the usual things of lack of shame, economic corruption, moral corruption..over spending/consumption... In other words a lot of similarities Allah has given us already with the stories of previous people.

    The blessing of a empire lies in walking the straight path. What do i mean by this? Our actions will ALWAYS get a natural reaction. Because we know from some hadith that nature reacts to our actions as one i believe when Aisha(ra) did say something that would be considered as a insult and Rasullah(saws) saying that how small that word to her is, it could turn the whole ocean in to salty i believe.

    So an empire coming to their end is because of Allah, not because..JUST BECAUSE.

    a: this incident of bani israil is related to enjoin good and forbidding evil which the ONLY momin forgot to perform his duty, so the punishment was started from him.

    Whereas it's guaranteed by our prophet s.a.w that his ummah will never agree on deviation in wholesale.

    b: Allah swt will not destroy this ummah as the previous nations were destroyed for their deviation.


    (Muslim 6904)
    Thauban reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said:Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake. And Ihave seen its eastern and western ends. And the dominion of my Unimahwould reach those ends which have been drawn near me and I have beengranted the red and the white trea- sure and I begged my Lord for myUmmah that it should not be destroyed because of famine, nor bedominated by an enemy who is not amongst them to take their lives anddestroy them root and branch, and my Lord said: Muhammad, whenever Imake a decision, there is none to change it. Well, I grant you for yourUmmah that it would not be destroyed by famine and it would not bedominated by an enemy who would not be amongst it and would take theirlives and destroy them root and branch even if all the people from thedifferent parts of the world join hands together (for this purpose),but it would be from amongst them, viz. your Ummah, that some peoplewould kill the others or imprison the others.
    Last edited by azc; 06-10-2017 at 06:20 PM.
    Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Allah (swt) knows best

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    @Simple_Person


    bro,

    Allah swt punishes Muslims for their sins and most probably Allah swt purifies the souls by punishment.

    But if the rulers are corrupt and the people of kingdom are not happy and suppose any other country attack on them and destroy their kingdom then it can't be considered with surity that Allah swt punished them.

    And you're speaking with surity that ottoman empire declined because Allah swt punished them. No,It can't be decided by us.
    This is it...

    but if you still think that Allah swt punished the corrupt ruler of ottoman empire then it should be trusted that the next ruler who took the throne of the corrupt king, must be a better person, more noble, more just and more pious than him....?
    Then, Do you think Kamal Ataturk had these qualities ...??,
    Last edited by azc; 06-10-2017 at 07:05 PM.
    Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Allah (swt) knows best

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    a: this incident of bani israil is related to enjoin good and forbidding evil which the ONLY momin forgot to perform his duty, so the punishment was started from him.

    Whereas it's guaranteed by our prophet s.a.w that his ummah will never agree on deviation in wholesale.

    b: Allah swt will not destroy this ummah as the previous nations were destroyed for their deviation.


    (Muslim 6904)
    Thauban reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said:Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake. And Ihave seen its eastern and western ends. And the dominion of my Unimahwould reach those ends which have been drawn near me and I have beengranted the red and the white trea- sure and I begged my Lord for myUmmah that it should not be destroyed because of famine, nor bedominated by an enemy who is not amongst them to take their lives anddestroy them root and branch, and my Lord said: Muhammad, whenever Imake a decision, there is none to change it. Well, I grant you for yourUmmah that it would not be destroyed by famine and it would not bedominated by an enemy who would not be amongst it and would take theirlives and destroy them root and branch even if all the people from thedifferent parts of the world join hands together (for this purpose),but it would be from amongst them, viz. your Ummah, that some peoplewould kill the others or imprison the others.

    A: Agreed the Ummah will not be destroyed and it has not, only the corrupt ones have been destroyed (Baghdad invasion for example)..another the fall of the last Islamic Caliphate because it was ruled by corruption. The Ummah is still alive, but humiliated. So it is WE who are responsible for that Allah has been humiliating us. That is why i used the reference of Umar ibn Khattab (ra) earlier. If we do not follow the path of Islam we will be humiliated. We know from hadith that from the 73 sects the main body will enter paradise. But again..the Ummah not as a whole, but the corrupters (parts of it), as the Ottoman Empire slowly fell in that pit.

    B: (see A).

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    @Simple_Person


    bro,

    Allah swt punishes Muslims for their sins and most probably Allah swt purifies the souls by punishment.

    But if the rulers are corrupt and the people of kingdom are not happy and suppose any other country attack on them and destroy their kingdom then it can't be considered with surity that Allah swt punished them.

    And you're speaking with surity that ottoman empire declined because Allah swt punished them. No,It can't be decided by us.
    This is it...

    but if you still think that Allah swt punished the corrupt ruler of ottoman empire then it should be trusted that the next ruler who took the throne of the corrupt king, must be a better person, more noble, more just and more pious than him....?
    Then, Do you think Kamal Ataturk had these qualities ...??,
    We know from hadith that everything that happens to a Muslim is good for a Muslim even punishment.

    You don't get it. It is part of the fitrah to stand up against corruption. So if the rulers are corrupt, the fitrah is programmed in such a way that people should stand up against it. Every act or way of life has a certain end. Corruption can go to a certain level, when it has reached that level, then it only can be the end. Which happened to the Ottoman Empire. However one indeed cannot say it is ONLY that. There is much more to it, as for example Allah also says about people who say we believe and not be tested. Allah will make clear who are the liars and ones who truly believe.

    When Mustafa kemal rose to power, instead of looking what Islam says, many people started to love nationalism instead. It is more to it than what meets the eye. However i do still believe that the fall of the Ummah was also part of the punishment. Things that have already been decreed if you really ponder about, they are perfectly fit on the corruption people bring forth. Just like the Mongol invasion, it came because of the corruption people brought forth.

    We also know from hadith that Rasullah(saws) has said that good will come after bad, but after some time it will not be totally good, but tainted. As you see now a days, some good is given in laws in Muslim majority country, but tainted with other rulings that are not good.

    Mustafa Kemal was rather also a fitna i would say, however people instead of rejecting it, they embraced it. These days you see the same for example. They see Assad as evil and WHOEVER fights Assad many Muslims see those people as heroes and good guys..(US for example). While the truth is..Assad = bad and US = bad. But also Turkey as well as Saudi, Qatar..etc all bad. This fitna is age of confusion and the real path is..not choosing ANYBODY, because none pursue the path of Islam.

    Anyways, i leave this discussion to this. If you say you are right ..i say for the sake of brotherhood you are right.

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Salaam

    The Ottoman empire had many problems (the rise of nationalism, ethnic division, governance etc) no argument here, and it had to evolve to take further the reforms it had enacted over the previous decades.

    As Shirvan in the first video said it had achievments to its name and it was the last time we had a proper independent Muslim power.

    For example when the Zionist Theodor Herzl came to the Sultan to buy Palestine this was the his response.

    Advise Dr. Herzl not to take any further steps in his project. I cannot give away a handful of the soil of this land for it is not my own, it is for all the Islamic Nation that fought for the sake of this land and watered it with their blood. The Jews may keep their millions. If the Islamic Caliphate is one day destroyed then they will be able to take Palestine without a price. But while I am alive, I would rather push a sword into my body than see the land of Palestine cut and given away from the Islamic State. This will not be. I will not start cutting our bodies while we are alive

    More on the decline of the empire,


  10. #47
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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Rotschilds started the WW1 to create Israel.

    Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    You harvest what you sow.

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    Re: Decline of the Ottoman Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    Rotschilds started the WW1 to create Israel.

    And how "convenient" that there was a army officer named Mustafa Kemal who did exactly that what benefited to create the foundation for Israel to arise from. That is what i pointed out in the other topic, but i believe you still haven't realized it. He did exactly that which gave the foundation for the state of Israel to lay it's foundation. Destroy the Ottoman Empire from within and corrupt the ideology that the Ottoman Empire even just with some dignity and principles left kept on (Islam).

    Introducing

    - Nationalism (removing the power that united Muslims under Islam not a man-made country)
    - Remove Arabic alphabet (Introducing Latin alphabet)
    - Implementing secularism (removing the law that how weak it even had become, but still was..Islamic law under Hanafi madhab)
    - Prohibiting Islamic clothing

    He even tried to implement the azhan in Turkish instead of Arabic.

    Yet many Turks knowing these things TODAY, still believe in this evil he created. This is why i am always so pissed when it comes to Turks and nationalism. He did not save Turks, he brainwashed them to lose what they a bit stood for. He was himself not a Muslim, but still many Turks who know all of this cheer for him. Go and ask any Muslim that truly pursues Islam (not talking about Kurds) and ask them if Mustafa Kemal was a good guy, they would reject it. Ask yourself why?

    I have heard that in Turkey it is even forbidden to dig in in to his origin (but could be wrong). When things meet by coincidence just like Mustafa Kemal did exactly those things that were VERY VERY VERY beneficial to the creation of state Israel, know it was not a coincidence. It was planned way ahead. Think logically. How in the world can you destroy a empire, where the people stand by their empire? One can destroy it from within. Just introduce some hero in the eyes of the people and people will follow you like sheep. Which exactly happened with the Ottoman Empire. You think the Zionists would leave such things (leadership of the newly created Turkey) by chance? These people do not leave things to chance. If Mustafa Kemal indeed cared about the Ummah he would have planned or plotted against the Zionists..ahead of their time. Yet all the safeguards he created was to PREVENT any Islamic group to cease power and to do exactly just that ..(with the slightest possibility they would stand up against the Zionists). Why all those coups in the past? ..the safeguards to prevent uprising against the Zionists. This even with Erdogan, he is not so loud about the zionists, but keeps his voice low. Why??

    Look at US, if you still are blind..well let me chew it for you..go search AIPAC. No US president comes to power unless he is loyal to the Zionists. When we talk about such huge plans of creating such a state..do NOT think such people with such wealth and power leave things to chance....they don't. Everything must be covered and insured so their plans are solid and nobody prevents them doing their thing.

    If you did not knew these things or even thought about these things in your wildest dreams, go ask yourself how come you never looked at it from such a perspective?



    EVERYTHING MUST BE CONTROLLED!! Nothing is left to chance.

    Last edited by Simple_Person; 09-05-2017 at 06:29 PM.

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