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So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?

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    So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true? (OP)


    Assalaamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters in Islam & humanity!

    Our dear brother Subboor Ahmad, explains in this short video how similarities between the species does not mean Darwinism is true.



    If you like this video, please hit the like button and subscribe to Dawah Digital,

    Jazakum Allahu Khair
    | Likes Rafal Ibrahim, Good brother, Alamgir, Eric H liked this post
    So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?

    15noje9 1 - So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?

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    Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?

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    format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk View Post
    You’ve lost the plot Umie. You’ve basically just admitted that you need science to validate Islam. In other words, you measure and hold science above Islam and not the other way round.

    Now, for those breadcrumbs, the reason they taste funny is because medicine usually does!
    That is all you have concluded from this whole discussion? I hold science above Islam? Really?

    You know what dude...nevermind...
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    Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?

    Im not sure but i think you two are arguing about two different things in the end ...
    Suggesting that science is inferior to the Quran just because one is absolute and the other is not is not a fair comparison in the slightest.
    A more fair comparison would be between our understanding of the Quran and our understanding of how the universe works (ie science). Both are NOT absolute.
    Or if you wanna compare absolutes, you would be comparing Quran with the way the universe actually works (which we dont know yet).

    Science is very essential to understand the Quran and the miracles that lay within it, thus somewhat validating it. Its because it shapes our understanding of things mentioned in the Quran. Take for example the ayaa about the creation of the heavens and earth in 6 days (Quran 50:38). We know from empirical evidence that there is almost no way this could happen in our earthly 6 days, yet through science, we are able to understand that time isnt a constant and can be relative. So the 6 days that God refers to in the Quran may be 6 million years to us. Without science and the understanding of relativity, we would not have been able to understand that.

    Suggesting that our understanding of the Quran trumps science and empirical evidence is like asking us to turn our backs our senses and ability to observe and reason. Doing that is like turning our backs on the very tools we use to conclude that this is the true religion, thus bringing us back to why we believed in islam in the first place.
    | Likes Scimitar, Zafran liked this post
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    Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?

    format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO View Post

    Suggesting that our understanding of the Quran trumps science and empirical evidence is like...
    Qur'an is objectively true, while science is subjective. Now try saying that again
    So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?

    15noje9 1 - So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
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    Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk View Post
    Qur'an is objectively true, while science is subjective. Now try saying that again
    You can only know that by using reason. Razi argued that the only way we know revelation is because reason acknowledges Revelation and then extracts meaning from it by using reason. I wouldn't go down the whole subjective/objective route because we establish the Quran and sunnah on fitra (natural disposition) and tawattur (mass transmitted/corroborated knowledge) - which is the same way we believe in scientific Knowledge - the mass transmitted knowledge of the scientist.

    The big difference is that God is absolute so is the Judgement and the afterlife that God has willed -

    whilst the empirical universe is contingent so its bound to have paradigm shifts.

    Revelation itself is absolute but interpreting it in specific time and place will entail difference of opinion expect on the absolutes eg God.

    PS - I dont know why you and Ummie are fighting when your basically saying the same thing.
    So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
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    Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    You can only know that by using reason. Razi argued that the only way we know revelation is because reason acknowledges Revelation and then extracts meaning from it by using reason. I wouldn't go down the whole subjective/objective route because we establish the Quran and sunnah on fitra (natural disposition) and tawattur (mass transmitted/corroborated knowledge) - which is the same way we believe in scientific Knowledge - the mass transmitted knowledge of the scientist.

    The big difference is that God is absolute so is the Judgement and the afterlife that God has willed -

    whilst the empirical universe is contingent so its bound to have paradigm shifts.

    Revelation itself is absolute but interpreting it in specific time and place will entail difference of opinion expect on the absolutes eg God.

    PS - I dont know why you and Ummie are fighting when your basically saying the same thing.
    I'm done with the fighting. It has no use.

    The argument is about the relation between science and Islam.
    according to Bushwack science is the opposite of Islam. They occupie the same "space"...so they can't coexist...where there is Islam, can't be science...just like water and air...where there is water, there cannot be air.
    furthermore, Islam is objective, therefore science must be subjective...
    Science uses assumptions, therefore it is not the truth...it cannot be trusted...
    Science is bad...it is evil...etc.

    unfortunately, a lot of people think like this...as if science is the opposite of religion.
    it's really not...time and time again I am trying to make that clear...that science and religion have a whole different function...they do not occupie the same space.

    I'm going to be a bit technical here...but I'm sure you can follow me.

    think of a black box with multiple inputs and multiple outputs.
    for the ones who do not know what a black box is:
    definition of black box in wikipedia:
    "In science, computing, and engineering, a black box is a device, system or object which can be viewed in terms of its inputs and outputs (or transfer characteristics), without any knowledge of its internal workings. Its implementation is "opaque" (black). Almost anything might be referred to as a black box: a transistor, an algorithm, or the human brain."

    So, we have this black box...it has multiple inputs and multiple outputs.
    We do not know how this box looks like from the inside and how does it work.
    we have also a users manual of it which describes what the device can do and how to operate it...but it does not show what is inside the box.
    we can read the instruction manual the get some clues of what might be inside the box, or we can choose not to.

    so, in order to find out what is inside the black box we can give the box a defined input, measure the output and analyze the results...and this will give us a slight impression of its content.

    the outcome of this will lead to a certain conclusion with some possible assumption like:
    the input is xxxxx....the output is yyyyy....therefore, there must be a zzzzzz somewhere in it.

    This automatically leads to the next step where you test the assumption:
    if there is a zzzzzz in it, the output should be aaaaaa if the input is a bbbbbbb

    and depending on the measurement of the output, this assumption can be true or false.
    either way, with every attempt you learn more and more stuff about the black box, and you get a better impression of what is inside.
    but you are never absolutely sure what is inside exactly.


    now to show you why I am telling this.
    This black box is the analogy for a creature, world, the universe or all creation
    the users manual is the Divine revelation.
    you never doubt the correctness of the users manual, because it comes from the maker of the black box. you trust it...it does not need any validation....but during your tests on the black box, you see that the outcome matches with what the users manual describes, and therefore that is still a validation of the users manual.

    the testing and measuring part is science.

    you see, that religion is more focussed on how to use the black box in a proper way.
    science focus is pointed towards learning more about the black box how it works, or maybe to find out extra features or extra functions of it.

    they do not fullfill the same...but do have a contact area somewhere.

    but you can also see that science HAS to make assumptions on a certain level...but it continuously strives to test these assumptions and with each step, the assumptions get smaller and smaller.

    I do not know if this was clear enough for everyone...I hope you guys could follow me.

    Kind regards,
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