Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
Our dear brother Subboor Ahmad, explains in this short video how similarities between the species does not mean Darwinism is true.
format_quote Originally Posted by ahmed.younes
Why do you use such a title which causes doubts to enter into peoples hearts? May Allah guide you.
The opening statement in the OP was pretty self explanitory. If the title causes the slightest doubt in your faith in Islam, then you iman is clearly weak. If there are people doubting their faith over this, it should be the darwinists, not Muslims.
Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
The opening statement in the OP was pretty self explanitory. If the title causes the slightest doubt in your faith in Islam, then you iman is clearly weak. If there are people doubting their faith over this, it should be the darwinists, not Muslims.
Barakalufeek this goes to show your ignorance, and your carelessness regarding the religion of Allah. You're right, I might have weak faith, but matter of fact is that there are many people on this forum with weak faith, so are we going to drive them away by imposing modern philosophical ideologies, or are we going to give them a safe haven, where they can come here and ask questions to inquire about their newly found faith? We are living at time of large fitna, where it is difficult to maintain a high level of iman, and muslims are at a time of crisis. So you saying that I having weak faith like it is a new phenomenon, is you being delusional. So fear Allah and don't speak without knowledge. Barakalahufeek.
Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
format_quote Originally Posted by ahmed.younes
Barakalufeek this goes to show your ignorance, and your carelessness regarding the religion of Allah. You're right, I might have weak faith, but matter of fact is that there are many people on this forum with weak faith, so are we going to drive them away by imposing modern philosophical ideologies, or are we going to give them a safe haven, where they can come here and ask questions to inquire about their newly found faith? We are living at time of large fitna, where it is difficult to maintain a high level of iman, and muslims are at a time of crisis. So you saying that I having weak faith like it is a new phenomenon, is you being delusional. So fear Allah and don't speak without knowledge. Barakalahufeek.
How on Earth would this thread cause a Muslim to doubt their faith? Did you watch the video? Do you understand what the thread is about?? Delusional? Careless? Speaking without knowledge? Anything else you want to add? Here's my word of the day, irony
I'll requote the opening sentence in the OP again in case you missed it the second time, bold words included free of charge.
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
Our dear brother Subboor Ahmad, explains in this short video how similarities between the species does not mean Darwinism is true.
Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
format_quote Originally Posted by ahmed.younes
Why do you use such a title which causes doubts to enter into peoples hearts? May Allah guide you.
It's called 'click bait' and it's a very cheap trick people you on YT being desperate and begging people to visit their video so they can make a few cents of it.
Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
Our dear brother Subboor Ahmad himself gave me this title!
The title of this topic and the title of the video are like a question and answer.
I think that went over the heads of the complainers, and the fact that the video itself is not being discussed is reflecting a classical case of ignorance. Bruce Lee was right - focusing on the finger means you lose all the heavenly glory!
Now... does anyone actually have anything to say about the video itself?
Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
May allah guide you. I am going to stop arguing, because both of you are ignorant of the reality of the matter...
We are living at times where we are at the pinnacle of philosophy and doubtful matters like the world has never seen before. And Muslims are already as weak as they are, with all the war, and disunity amongst one another. So why are you even posting this video here, let alone giving it such a precarious title? Being asked questions which one does not know how to answer, can cause a doubt to enter the heart very easily. There are many more other important subjects that one should be focusing on; like Tawheed and the oneness of Allah swt. Even if one was to benefit from your doubt-insinuating video, the least you can do is change this title to something more assuring.
Last edited by ahmed.younes; 06-24-2018 at 05:04 AM.
Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
format_quote Originally Posted by ahmed.younes
May allah guide you.
In one breath and then in the next, an ad hominem...
format_quote Originally Posted by ahmed.younes
I am going to stop arguing, because both of you are ignorant of the reality of the matter...
Wow bro calling people ignorant when you don't understand nor are discussing the actual content of the video, is rich!!! Hypocrite much? Your argumentum ad ignorantium only exposes your own weaknesses!
However, I'll humour the rest of your brain fart!
format_quote Originally Posted by ahmed.younes
We are living at times where we are at the pinnacle of philosophy and doubtful matters like the world has never seen before.
Rubbish. Study history to see how these very same arguments were regurgitated ad nauseam!
format_quote Originally Posted by ahmed.younes
And Muslims are already as weak as they are, with all the war, and disunity amongst one another.
Now you're making emotional appeals... how weak minded are you, really?
format_quote Originally Posted by ahmed.younes
So why are you even posting this video here, let alone giving it such a precarious title?
see my last post before this one nothing precarious about it, as explained by myself and others!
format_quote Originally Posted by ahmed.younes
Being asked questions which one does not know how to answer, can cause a doubt to enter the heart very easily.
Bingo! You have weak imaan, I knew it!!! Well, WATCH THE VIDEO THEN - and learn that Muslims have the intellectual know how to combat such doubtful narratives... you know what makes me laugh? How you called us ignorant when in fact it is you who is fearing that which he doesn't understand.
format_quote Originally Posted by ahmed.younes
There are many more other important subjects that one should be focusing on; like Tawheed and the oneness of Allah swt.
This video releases in a few weeks - but just for you, here:
format_quote Originally Posted by ahmed.younes
Even if one was to benefit from your doubt-insinuating video, the least you can do is change this title to something more assuring.
Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
Our dear brother Subboor Ahmad himself gave me this title!
The title of this topic and the title of the video are like a question and answer.
I think that went over the heads of the complainers, and the fact that the video itself is not being discussed is reflecting a classical case of ignorance. Bruce Lee was right - focusing on the finger means you lose all the heavenly glory!
Now... does anyone actually have anything to say about the video itself?
anything about the video:
This guy is saying that evolution cannot be called a fact. it is a provability at most...but no one claims that. The ones that claim that evolution is a fact, do not understand how science works.
Einstein does not claim that his relativity theory is a fact...nor did Bohr about his Bohr model, or whatever. it is just an approximation of reality ans just offers a logical possible explanation. but despite of that, their theory and model are still highly usable. evolution theory is the same...it offers a possible logical explanation...nothing more...
Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
anything about the video:
This guy is saying that evolution cannot be called a fact. it is a provability at most...but no one claims that. The ones that claim that evolution is a fact, do not understand how science works.
Einstein does not claim that his relativity theory is a fact...nor did Bohr about his Bohr model, or whatever. it is just an approximation of reality ans just offers a logical possible explanation. but despite of that, their theory and model are still highly usable. evolution theory is the same...it offers a possible logical explanation...nothing more...
Yes, but that is exactly what I am saying in every post here about this subject.
I do support evolution. because every clue we find point towards that direction.
over a decade we might find different clues and conclude that evolution was just a silly idea...or, we might have even more clues which also confirm evolution.
we just do not know.
What I find strange in the video however, is that if someone is saying, "I assume there is a common ancestor" then this person should be left alone but if one says "no, it is a fact..." then that is a reason for discussion.
What I would say...it is the other way around. the person saying "evolution is a fact, common ancertory is true" should be left alone because he obviously did not understand how it works and you can not have a discussion on level with this person...in the same cagegory are people who are saying "evolution is not true, that totally goes against religion" neither havethese people understood what it is truely about in science, and that for a healthy religion, it is neccessary that science is in perfect harmony with religion.
Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
Greetings and peace be with you umie;
it is neccessary that science is in perfect harmony with religion.
Once all the species have been created by Allah, I think the theory of evolution is a good explanation as to how we all adapt to our ever changing surroundings. I do not believe that the ToE can be used to extrapolate back a few billion years to single cell life, and then show how we have evolved from this single cell life.
If science is at odds with religion, then I see this as a problem for science and not for religion.
Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
Yes, but that is exactly what I am saying in every post here about this subject.
I do support evolution. because every clue we find point towards that direction.
over a decade we might find different clues and conclude that evolution was just a silly idea...or, we might have even more clues which also confirm evolution.
we just do not know.
What I find strange in the video however, is that if someone is saying, "I assume there is a common ancestor" then this person should be left alone but if one says "no, it is a fact..." then that is a reason for discussion.
What I would say...it is the other way around. the person saying "evolution is a fact, common ancertory is true" should be left alone because he obviously did not understand how it works and you can not have a discussion on level with this person...in the same cagegory are people who are saying "evolution is not true, that totally goes against religion" neither havethese people understood what it is truely about in science, and that for a healthy religion, it is neccessary that science is in perfect harmony with religion.
Science is never in harmony with religion, these are very romantic meanderings you are wishfully entertaining. Scientists may promulgate theories which attempt to explain phenomena based on empirical methodology, but this has its limitations. And just because some theory appeals to you, doesn’t make it true. Take for example the theory of phlogiston. It seemed like a done deal. A factual theory. However that turned out to be false and instead the element which was eventually discovered became known as nitrogen and theory of phlogiston died and got buried.
Nitrogen, is a fact. Phlogiston was a theory. Evolution is still just a factual theory which is problematic and still being developed into various models, each contradicting the last - without ascertaining any truth!
there you go, breadcrumbs for the brain - or if you prefer, food for thought!
Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
Science is never in harmony with religion, these are very romantic meanderings you are wishfully entertaining. Scientists may promulgate theories which attempt to explain phenomena based on empirical methodology, but this has its limitations.
Sorry Bushwack but you are disappointing me. clearly you have written this statement without giving it much thought.
when we speak about religion in general, you could almost be right. but we are speaking about Islam...the one true religion.
If you truely believe that:
Allah has created the universe, the stars and galaxies, the Earth and all living creatures, the laws of nature
and science is nothing more than a human tool to try to understand the world around us...then there is no other option than that science HAS TO BE in harmony with religion. there is no other way. Allah will not create the world in one way, but teach us something totally different. that makes no sense.
Islam is the absolute truth. no doubt about it. science is an approximation. there are multiple examples where science adopted a law and later on turned out to be wrong or inaccurate...this is normal...we learn and develop. this however does not say that science and religion are not in harmony with each other.
you are talking about theories. this is exactly what subboor is saying. He does not have any problem with the probability of a theory to be true. it only becomes a problem if one claims a theory to be a fact (which is not right). But no real scientist would claim a theory to be a fact.
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
And just because some theory appeals to you, doesn’t make it true.
it has nothing to do with appeal. it is about logic...
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
Take for example the theory of phlogiston. It seemed like a done deal. A factual theory. However that turned out to be false and instead the element which was eventually discovered became known as nitrogen and theory of phlogiston died and got buried.
Nitrogen, is a fact. Phlogiston was a theory. Evolution is still just a factual theory which is problematic and still being developed into various models, each contradicting the last - without ascertaining any truth!
a perfect example of investigation and development. as said science is not absolute...it is an approximation of the truth. it can be wrong sometimes but it gets corrected when proven wrong.
Exactly what your friend subboor says. back in that time the probability that the theory of plostigons was correct sounded logical. Subboor does not have problems with this...He only has a problem with the claim that the existence of phlogistons is true...which is not!. later on this was proven untrue and the whole theory was dumped and corrected.
Evolution is exactly the same.
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
there you go, breadcrumbs for the brain - or if you prefer, food for thought!
Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
Sorry Bushwack but you are disappointing me. clearly you have written this statement without giving it much thought.
when we speak about religion in general, you could almost be right. but we are speaking about Islam...the one true religion.
You believe that science validates Islam?
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
If you truely believe that:
Allah has created the universe, the stars and galaxies, the Earth and all living creatures, the laws of nature
and science is nothing more than a human tool to try to understand the world around us...then there is no other option than that science HAS TO BE in harmony with religion. there is no other way. Allah will not create the world in one way, but teach us something totally different. that makes no sense.
Science constantly shifts platforms and I gave you an example of this earlier but you are not thinking things through properly... my turn to be disappointed I htink i'm wasting my time with you.
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
Islam is the absolute truth. no doubt about it. science is an approximation. there are multiple examples where science adopted a law and later on turned out to be wrong or inaccurate...this is normal...we learn and develop. this however does not say that science and religion are not in harmony with each other.
Maybe i'm not so disappointed after all... keep going!
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
you are talking about theories. this is exactly what subboor is saying. He does not have any problem with the probability of a theory to be true. it only becomes a problem if one claims a theory to be a fact (which is not right). But no real scientist would claim a theory to be a fact.
This is exactly what I was saying lol in my previous post. What did you think I was saying? Why else did I give you the story of phlogiston?
I sat and filmed Subboor, and discussed this idea with him so I know more what Subboor is saying than you do Umie.
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
it has nothing to do with appeal. it is about logic...
Nope, appeal and you proved this with your statement "science is in perfect harmony with religion." It isn't. Science is just a method based on empiricism which relies solely on observation, and assumptions. A bit of a one trick pony. Qur'an is absolute. The Qur'an, Islam validates scientific enquiry, but science does not validate the Qur'an or Islam - if it did, proving God exists empirically wouldn't be such a problem, now would it?
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
a perfect example of investigation and development. as said science is not absolute...it is an approximation of the truth. it can be wrong sometimes but it gets corrected when proven wrong.
Exactly what your friend subboor says. back in that time the probability that the theory of plostigons was correct sounded logical. Subboor does not have problems with this...He only has a problem with the claim that the existence of phlogistons is true...which is not!. later on this was proven untrue and the whole theory was dumped and corrected.
Evolution is exactly the same.
Yet you say science is in perfect harmony with religion and support evolution because of some emotional appeal you thinly disguise as "logic"... interesting.
Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
salaam
My two cents Islam deals with issues like existential meaning, moral anchorage, life after death, salvation. The nature of the universe is contingent so the scientific project is bound to have models that work for some things and not for other situations Newtons law and Einsteins theory of relativity are great examples. You can still use Newtons scientific paradigm and get a man to the moon but it fails to explain the nature of time. We also have to remember that there is a distinction of epistemological branches here - Hukm aqli (pure reason) adi (empirical based on habit and custom) and shariah (based on Revelation and prophet hood).
You also have to remember that people believed that the Universe was eternal, this was the major understanding of naturalism in the past. The theologian argued for ex Nihlo through the Kalam cosmological argument. Right now due to the Bing bang theory it seems science and the theologians comes to the similar understanding but this is not always the case.
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
You believe that science validates Islam?
Islam does not need validation, but yes...science DOES validate Islam. It would be strange if it wouldn't...think about it...seeing all creation around you in such perfection...doesn't that validate Islam? what science does is just trying to explain how that creation works...trying to find the mechanism behind it...that is all.
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
Science constantly shifts platforms and I gave you an example of this earlier but you are not thinking things through properly... my turn to be disappointed I htink i'm wasting my time with you.
Of course science constantly shifts platforms...you think you are the first one who thought that out? science shifts because we learn and develop...we understand stuff better and sometimes we find proof that one formula was wrong and so we dump that formula or theory and find a better one.
Would you rather have science not shifting platforms? that it stays stubborn on one platform whether right or wrong? just like other religions?
It is not that scientists get regular divine relevations about theories and formulas. they just have their observations and measurements...sometimes they take the wrong conclusions...but that because of the lack of information about the case...and in time it gets corrected...nothing wrong with that.
So again, what is it that I am not thinking through properly? please explain.
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
Maybe i'm not so disappointed after all... keep going!
This is exactly what I was saying lol in my previous post. What did you think I was saying? Why else did I give you the story of phlogiston?
I sat and filmed Subboor, and discussed this idea with him so I know more what Subboor is saying than you do Umie.
Yeah...you know Subboor better than I...so, you are the Master! you think you and Subboor are the first people who came up with this idea?
No one knew this before you guys right?
and why DID you give the story of the phlogiston actually? to show us how science shifts platforms? we did not know about scientists back then once spoke about a flat earth right?
Or how about the galilean relativity that you can add up speeds like Vtotal = V1 + V2 (if the direction is equal)...we used this formula for years...but then at some point Einstein came along and stated that this formula was not accurate enough for higher speeds.
therefore the actual formula was something like Vtotal = (V1 + V2)/((1 + (V1V2/C2))
However this formula is way too complex for daily use, so for smaller speeds we still use the Galilean formula.
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
Nope, appeal and you proved this with your statement "science is in perfect harmony with religion." It isn't. Science is just a method based on empiricism which relies solely on observation, and assumptions. A bit of a one trick pony. Qur'an is absolute.
no one is claiming otherwise. Science has to make assumptions on things which are yet unknown...with research and testing those assumptions we get results that either prove or disapprove these assumptions, so we might shift platforms...but with that shift we removed an extra assumption and we get closer and closer to the truth...that is how it works.
Again...scientists do not get relevations...so, somewhere they must make assumptions to be able to explain an unknown phenomenon.
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
The Qur'an, Islam validates scientific enquiry, but science does not validate the Qur'an or Islam - if it did, proving God exists empirically wouldn't be such a problem, now would it?
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
this is a worthless statement. God is unreachable...if we could prove the existence of God, our stay on Earth would be useless wouldn't it?
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
Yet you say science is in perfect harmony with religion and support evolution because of some emotional appeal you thinly disguise as "logic"... interesting.
I already explained why I said science is in harmony with religion. again...and please give me an answer on this question and do not ignore it this time:
Why would God create one thing, but teach us something different in his Holy Book?
Science is just based on facts and observations about Gods creation...so, why would that contradict Islam? (of course, other than the assumptions made in science about some yet unknown phenomenon...but evet that eventually gets corrected in time)
So, why are you so violently against science? I do not understand that.
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
open your mouth, i'll feed you
no thanks...your breadcrumbs have a funny taste...
Re: So wait! Similiarities between the species means Darwinism is true?
You’ve lost the plot Umie. You’ve basically just admitted that you need science to validate Islam. In other words, you measure and hold science above Islam and not the other way round.
Now, for those breadcrumbs, the reason they taste funny is because medicine usually does!
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calling people ignorant when you don't understand nor are discussing the actual content of the video, is rich!!! Hypocrite much? Your argumentum ad ignorantium only exposes your own weaknesses!
nothing precarious about it, as explained by myself and others!
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