Imam Ibn al-Qayyim, may Allah have mercy on him, said: ‘Shaitan tries to destroy the son of Adam in one of seven phases. Some of them are more intense than others. Shaitan would not try to destroy him in the next phase until he fails to destroy him in a previous one. These phases are:
1st Phase: The phase of disbelief in Allah, His Deen, His perfect attributes, and in what the Prophet, may Allah praise him, informed us about, and the fact that we will be resurrected. If Shaitan is successful in misleading the slave in this phase, his enmity towards him would diminish and he would take rest. If the slave succeeds, and survives in this phase, Shaitan would try to destroy him in the next phase.
2nd Phase: The phase of Bid’ah (religious innovation); whether it pertains to believing in other than the truth which the Messenger, may Allah praise him, was sent with or by worshipping other than Allah; such as worshipping idols, and the like. Shaitan enjoys that one succumbs in this phase, for Bid’ah conflicts with the nature of the Deen and compels one to reject it. Furthermore, the one who observes innovated religious practices would not repent from his actions; rather, he would invite people to his Bid’ah! Observing innovated religious practices would compel one to forge lies against Allah and speak without knowledge; thus it openly clashes with the Sunnah. Observing minor Bid’ah practices would lead one to observing major Bid’ah practices. In this manner, a person would eventually exit the folds of Islam. Scholars and people of knowledge alone know the real dangers of Bid’ah practices. If a person succeeds and survives in this phase by adhering to the Sunnah, and understanding its texts as the Pious Predecessors understood them, Shaitan would seek to destroy him in the next phase.
3rd Phase: The phase of major sins. If he is able to destroy the slave in this phase, he would beautify the deed that he is doing and probably compel him to say the following: ‘No sin would harm the Tawheed (creedal belief) as no good deed would benefit a man who has committed Shirk (i.e. to associate partners with Allah).’ If the person is successful and survives this phase, Shaitan would seek to destroy him in the next phase.
4th Phase: The phase of minor sins. Shaitan would compel a person to belittle these sins, by whispering to him: ‘There is no fear upon you as long as you keep away from major sins “do you not know that the minor sins are expiated by abstaining from major sins?’ In this manner, Shaitan would convince the individual that there is no harm in doing minor sins, until he regularly practices it. The person who has done a major sin, and has repented and is fearful of what he has done, would be better off than him; for regularly doing a minor sin would change it to a major sin! Constant repentance eliminates major sins; and on the same token, no minor sin remains a minor sin if one does it constantly.The Prophet, may Allah praise him, said: ‘Beware of minor sins; its likeness is like a people who stopped over in a valley, they spread out in search of fire wood, and each brought a stick; they were able to make a fire and cooked their bread. Whenever a person practices a minor sin regularly it would destruct him.’(Ahmed #22860) If the slave succeeds and survives in this phase, by being careful and repenting continuously to Allah, and observing righteous deeds, Shaitan seeks to destroy him in the next phase.
5th Phase: Satan entices the individual to excessively indulge in lawful things in order to keep him away from worshipping Allah. In this manner, Satan aims to make one abandon Sunnah practices, and later lead him to abandoning the obligatory practices. If the slave succeeds and survives in this phase by understanding the greatness of the acts of worship, he would seek to destroy him in the next phase.
6th Phase: The phase of busying the slave with deeds which are less rewarding. Shaitan encourages the slave to observe certain acts of worship and beautifies them to him, and shows him the great reward of doing those acts of worship in order to keep him away from deeds which are more beneficial and rewarding. When Shaitan fails to mislead the slave, he tries to deprive him from receiving the full reward; therefore, he busies him with lesser rewarding deeds.
7th Phase: If Shaitan fails in the above six phases, he would resort to harming the person in any way possible; by summoning his men and followers and riling them against this individual. The Prophets and Messengers were not left unharmed by this. One should bear patiently, for victory and success are tied with patience.”
Imam Ibn al-Qayyim, may Allah have mercy on him, said: ‘Shaitan tries to destroy the son of Adam in one of seven phases. Some of them are more intense than others. Shaitan would not try to destroy him in the next phase until he fails to destroy him in a previous one. These phases are:
Satan as the Imam understands take's a methodical strategy against the Muslim. It would prefectly compliment what your Allah has willed for the same Muslim. However how do Satan's temptations overlap with Allah's will? Is the Muslim tempted by Satan first, and then recall by Allah?
1st Phase: The phase of disbelief in Allah, His Deen, His perfect attributes, and in what the Prophet, may Allah praise him, informed us about, and the fact that we will be resurrected. If Shaitan is successful in misleading the slave in this phase, his enmity towards him would diminish and he would take rest. If the slave succeeds, and survives in this phase, Shaitan would try to destroy him in the next phase.
Doe's the Jews and Christians none-belief fall into this phase, or are the People of the Book, quided by Allah by His Will, but not by the same methods? What about those who don't believe that Muhammed is the Prophet of Allah? I disagree with the word "slave", for it indicates that Allah thinks little of what He fashioned from earth and that the angels bowed to adam, only to see that man is merely a slave. I posed a philosophical question, can you explain why this is the case? I believe that Grace wouldn't exist if humanity is tempted by Satan. Thinking on it, God's allways there for the faithful.
2nd Phase: The phase of Bid’ah (religious innovation); whether it pertains to believing in other than the truth which the Messenger, may Allah praise him, was sent with or by worshipping other than Allah; such as worshipping idols, and the like. Shaitan enjoys that one succumbs in this phase, for Bid’ah conflicts with the nature of the Deen and compels one to reject it. Furthermore, the one who observes innovated religious practices would not repent from his actions; rather, he would invite people to his Bid’ah! Observing innovated religious practices would compel one to forge lies against Allah and speak without knowledge; thus it openly clashes with the Sunnah. Observing minor Bid’ah practices would lead one to observing major Bid’ah practices. In this manner, a person would eventually exit the folds of Islam. Scholars and people of knowledge alone know the real dangers of Bid’ah practices. If a person succeeds and survives in this phase by adhering to the Sunnah, and understanding its texts as the Pious Predecessors understood them, Shaitan would seek to destroy him in the next phase.
Is innovation that he describes unqiue to Islam?
3rd Phase: The phase of major sins. If he is able to destroy the slave in this phase, he would beautify the deed that he is doing and probably compel him to say the following: ‘No sin would harm the Tawheed (creedal belief) as no good deed would benefit a man who has committed Shirk (i.e. to associate partners with Allah).’ If the person is successful and survives this phase, Shaitan would seek to destroy him in the next phase.
[B]
It sounds that in this phase, man is a slave to Satan. A man cannot have to two masters. Give to Ceaser what is his and give to the LORD what is His.
Satan as the Imam understands take's a methodical strategy against the Muslim. It would prefectly compliment what your Allah has willed for the same Muslim. However how do Satan's temptations overlap with Allah's will? Is the Muslim tempted by Satan first, and then recall by Allah?
I'm not sure what you're asking here, can you elaborate?
Doe's the Jews and Christians none-belief fall into this phase, or are the People of the Book, quided by Allah by His Will, but not by the same methods? What about those who don't believe that Muhammed is the Prophet of Allah?
The Jews and Christians are also sons of Adam, so yes, this would apply to them just the same. Anyone who does not believe in the Oneness of Allah and the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be the final Messenger is misguided into a different faith.
I disagree with the word "slave", for it indicates that Allah thinks little of what He fashioned from earth and that the angels bowed to adam, only to see that man is merely a slave. I posed a philosophical question, can you explain why this is the case? I believe that Grace wouldn't exist if humanity is tempted by Satan. Thinking on it, God's allways there for the faithful.
Why disagree? Slave/Servant is interchangeable, we are slaves to Allah, in the denotation that we worship and serve Him and this is a BEAUTIFUL TITLE! Why should we pride ourselves to consider ourselves anything better when we are not? All creations belonging to Allah are considered to be slaves and servants to Him (ie. the angels, the Prophets, humans, etc).
The purpose for the angels bowing to Adam was out of respect to Adam ('alayhisalaam) as a way of greeting him, and obedience to Allah, nothing else.
I believe that Grace wouldn't exist if humanity is tempted by Satan. Thinking on it, God's allways there for the faithful.
By grace, do you mean the process of sanctification?
In Islam, humans are sinners, but the difference between the sinners and believers is repentance. We will always be tempted by Satan to do wrong, because this is our way of being tested with our faith.
Is innovation that he describes unqiue to Islam?
What do you mean by unique? Innovation is not a part of Islam, it is forbidden.
It sounds that in this phase, man is a slave to Satan. A man cannot have to two masters. Give to Ceaser what is his and give to the LORD what is His.
In all reality, we were created slaves to Allah and no matter what, we are still slaves/servants to Allah, but WE choose who to follow or who to stray away from. In the Quran it says:
If anyone withdraws himself from remembrance of [Allah] Most Gracious, We appoint for him an evil one, to be an intimate companion to him.
Such (evil ones) really hinder them from the Path, but they think that they are being guided aright!
[43:36-37]
So in essence, one who strays away from the Path of righteousness worshiping Allah, will instead be guided by his own desires and be opening doors for Satan to lead him astray and further away from the path of righteousness. Allah is and will always remain the eternal Master and we are always His slaves, no matter what. However, the moment we disobey Him, we have associated ourselves to worshiping something other than Him. So you are right, a believer cannot have two masters, and whoever believes otherwise, is indeed in loss. Allah is our only true master, and we have to worship Him and Him alone. If we don't do that, then we are disobeying Him and choosing to follow something else, and we cannot be in complete obedience to Allah if we are doing this, because it becomes a matter of shirk (associating partners to Allah) or kufr (disbelief).
I'm not sure what you're asking here, can you elaborate?
How do you know if both Allah and Satan actively compete for the faith of the Muslim?
The Jews and Christians are also sons of Adam, so yes, this would apply to them just the same. Anyone who does not believe in the Oneness of Allah and the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be the final Messenger is misguided into a different faith.
Problem is, the Covenant is firmly established and I cannot believe is anything that can put it into dispute. I don't see what the belief in Muhammed doe's for the Covenant, its the LORD's decree, and I will not dare portray the LORD GOD.
Why disagree? Slave/Servant is interchangeable, we are slaves to Allah, in the denotation that we worship and serve Him and this is a BEAUTIFUL TITLE! Why should we pride ourselves to consider ourselves anything better when we are not? All creations belonging to Allah are considered to be slaves and servants to Him (ie. the angels, the Prophets, humans, etc). The purpose for the angels bowing to Adam was out of respect to Adam ('alayhisalaam) as a way of greeting him, and obedience to Allah, nothing else.
Servant is a much more palatable. We are servant's and keeper of the LORD's decrees. Yet there cannot be the act of questioning them in the name of anything.
By grace, do you mean the process of sanctification?
In Islam, humans are sinners, but the difference between the sinners and believers is repentance. We will always be tempted by Satan to do wrong, because this is our way of being tested with our faith.
Yes I do mean sanctification through the LORD's decrees and Yeshua's instructions.
So in essence, one who strays away from the Path of righteousness worshiping Allah, will instead be guided by his own desires and be opening doors for Satan to lead him astray and further away from the path of righteousness. Allah is and will always remain the eternal Master and we are always His slaves, no matter what. However, the moment we disobey Him, we have associated ourselves to worshiping something other than Him. So you are right, a believer cannot have two masters, and whoever believes otherwise, is indeed in loss. Allah is our only true master, and we have to worship Him and Him alone. If we don't do that, then we are disobeying Him and choosing to follow something else, and we cannot be in complete obedience to Allah if we are doing this, because it becomes a matter of shirk (associating partners to Allah) or kufr (disbelief).
I was right because I speak of what the LORD God has decreed. There can be no questioning of the Covenant.
I apologize, I don't know much about the Covenant or sanctification except by general terms, unless there is some misinterpretation to my own understanding, so I'll refrain from answering those two particular questions in depth due to my own ignorance, and hopefully someone more knowledgeable can address them accordingly if I have failed to do so, unless you care to break it down for me.
format_quote Originally Posted by NazariteofEhyah
How do you know if both Allah and Satan actively compete for the faith of the Muslim?
Using the word 'compete' is belittling Allah's power. They don't compete, rather it's us who are in a fight against Satan and our personal desires. Obviously if Allah wanted us all to worship Him all the time, He has the power to make us do so, but we have been given the freedom to disobey Him.
Problem is, the Covenant is firmly established and I cannot believe is anything that can put it into dispute. I don't see what the belief in Muhammed doe's for the Covenant, its the LORD's decree, and I will not dare portray the LORD GOD.
Muhammad (pbuh) is the final messenger sent down to all of mankind as the best example of what a righteous Muslim should be, whereas other prophets were sent for a certain group or tribe of people. Other Abrahamaic beliefs and scriptures have been distorted throughout the history of time by their own people, but Islam is the only one that has been preserved in its holiness and protected by Allah from fabrications and distortions til this day, so this is why it is purer to follow.
Servant is a much more palatable. We are servant's and keeper of the LORD's decrees. Yet there cannot be the act of questioning them in the name of anything.
I feel obliged to ask, do you believe the decrees of Allah can solely be preserved by flawed human beings throughout centuries when there has been evidence in the past that humans have failed in preserving the past holy scriptures that were sent down to them?
Yes I do mean sanctification through the LORD's decrees and Yeshua's instructions.
If I am understanding you correctly, are you implying that purification (or the acceptance of repentance) from Allah would not be available if we are often tempted by Satan?
[QUOTE=*charisma*;1102223]I apologize, I don't know much about the Covenant or sanctification except by general terms, unless there is some misinterpretation to my own understanding, so I'll refrain from answering those two particular questions in depth due to my own ignorance, and hopefully someone more knowledgeable can address them accordingly if I have failed to do so, unless you care to break it down for me.
We all learn a little something each day, the LORD's will permitting. You might see that there maybe a matter of not knowing some Islamic teachings on my part, but be free of judgment as I will be. The OT has great references to both. You will find that you seek if the LORD's will you to do so.
Using the word 'compete' is belittling Allah's power. They don't compete, rather it's us who are in a fight against Satan and our personal desires. Obviously if Allah wanted us all to worship Him all the time, He has the power to make us do so, but we have been given the freedom to disobey Him.
I agree. I never intended for that to be your understanding.
Muhammad (pbuh) is the final messenger sent down to all of mankind as the best example of what a righteous Muslim should be, whereas other prophets were sent for a certain group or tribe of people. Other Abrahamaic beliefs and scriptures have been distorted throughout the history of time by their own people, but Islam is the only one that has been preserved in its holiness and protected by Allah from fabrications and distortions til this day, so this is why it is purer to follow.
Problem is if that I am not a Muslim. As a Nazarite/Nazarene I believe in the absoluteness of the LORD's decrees, commandments and teachings of the Teachers of Righteousness. Yes, there may be differences between the Quran and the Scriptures. We can discuss them and our own viewpoints but little would change. Because I wouldn't believe in any lord apart from the LORD. Your've given your views with reason, and so have I and we both are to disagree on most parts. Let's no argue about this fundamental no-man's land. I have one question, do you believe in the Ten Commandment's and that we should obey them?
I feel obliged to ask, do you believe the decrees of Allah can solely be preserved by flawed human beings throughout centuries when there has been evidence in the past that humans have failed in preserving the past holy scriptures that were sent down to them?
Yes there is evidences for the breaches in the decrees of the LORD throughout history. All the more reason to follow them harder, with all my faith, will and reason in the name of the LORD. Speaking of them only adds to my steadfastness in the LORD and for the LORD. We constantly see warnings in the Scriptures. Man continues to fall into the sins that are common to him, but the LORD hasn't abandoned us to sin endlessly. So I learn that I may sin, but my trust is intrusted to the LORD. And as such the LORD can only quide me, not the reasoning of men. Say what you want about the flawed nature of men, but it wont change anything.
If I am understanding you correctly, are you implying that purification (or the acceptance of repentance) from Allah would not be available if we are often tempted by Satan?
It begs futher questioning, doesn't it? Doesn't the competition lead to contradiction? Satan furthers day by day the questioning and reasoning of men against the LORD. Reasoning about the LORD's decrees and commandments detracts from their absolutness. They are to be done. I say thing because I do what it decreed and I am not prepared to reason about them. People such as Atheist's are always questioning, but never seeing the relevance of the decrees.
We all learn a little something each day, the LORD's will permitting. You might see that there maybe a matter of not knowing some Islamic teachings on my part, but be free of judgment as I will be. The OT has great references to both. You will find that you seek if the LORD's will you to do so.
Thank you.
Problem is if that I am not a Muslim. As a Nazarite/Nazarene I believe in the absoluteness of the LORD's decrees, commandments and teachings of the Teachers of Righteousness. Yes, there may be differences between the Quran and the Scriptures. We can discuss them and our own viewpoints but little would change. Because I wouldn't believe in any lord apart from the LORD. Your've given your views with reason, and so have I and we both are to disagree on most parts. Let's no argue about this fundamental no-man's land. I have one question, do you believe in the Ten Commandment's and that we should obey them?
We believe in the same oneness of God (if you're also absolutely monotheistic), the only difference is our scriptures. Islam is 100% the same way as it was when it was sent down, but the same cannot be said for the other Abrahamaic faiths, because there is evidence that they have been corrupted, so that is why we follow the Islamic scriptures instead--they are more reliable.
Yes, as Muslims, it is our obligation to follow everything in the Quran, that includes the 10 commandments, but the 10 commandments aren't our only obligations, there are far more than that.
Yes there is evidences for the breaches in the decrees of the LORD throughout history. All the more reason to follow them harder, with all my faith, will and reason in the name of the LORD. Speaking of them only adds to my steadfastness in the LORD and for the LORD. We constantly see warnings in the Scriptures.
So you would rather follow scriptures that have been corrupted by their own followers, and you want to try your hardest to preserve these same corrupted scriptures through your practices, rather than following sound scriptures that have no corruption and are always protected by Allah rather than entrusted with human beings who would inevitably change them to suit their own desires?
Man continues to fall into the sins that are common to him, but the LORD hasn't abandoned us to sin endlessly. So I learn that I may sin, but my trust is intrusted to the LORD. And as such the LORD can only quide me, not the reasoning of men. Say what you want about the flawed nature of men, but it wont change anything.
It won't change anything with what?
I refer to the flawed nature of men because of what you have said. We cannot put our faith in the hands of others because they are flawed and imperfect, unlike Allah who is absolute and perfect. So I would not dare to follow something that has been forbidden by Him and tainted by human beings in the past. Sinning is a part of our nature because it is a test from Allah to see who is greater in faith, but those who often sin should have a balance of hope and fear, not just hope. If they have hope, they will continue to sin with the assumption that if they will be forgiven no matter what, and those who have too much fear will sin because they have lost hope that they will be forgiven at all. So a person with hope, must ask for forgiveness from their sin, and with fear refrain from committing the sin again and obliging himself never to return to it so that hey may attain Allah's forgiveness completely. With that said, we have the choice to sin and to do good deeds, so we are not sinners all the time but just the same, we are not always committing good deeds. If we seek the guidance of Allah, we will always find Him there, we just have to put forth the effort rather than to sin over and over again saying "oh if Allah wanted to guide me, then why isn't He?" We have freedom, and we have to take advantage of our freedom to do good and always seek guidance, not to disobey. Yet, as a part of our nature, we will be sinning til the time of our death, and there are many reasons for this, and this is why ultimately, we seek the guidance of Allah.
It begs futher questioning, doesn't it? Doesn't the competition lead to contradiction? Satan furthers day by day the questioning and reasoning of men against the LORD. Reasoning about the LORD's decrees and commandments detracts from their absolutness. They are to be done. I say thing because I do what it decreed and I am not prepared to reason about them. People such as Atheist's are always questioning, but never seeing the relevance of the decrees.
I do believe we should always expand our knowledge, even with our own scriptures, so that we may strengthen our faith; if we don't do that then we are following it blindly and we'd have a hard time refuting claims against our beliefs, right? In Islam, this is encouraged because we're not allowed to follow blindly and since it's the truth, we wouldn't have any problems doing so. However, there are some people who go to the extent by asking things which don't even concern them and cause doubts in their own hearts because they have the incapability of understanding what they are trying to find, or they are trying to find something that suits their personal own desires.
Competition doesn't lead to contradiction, not always. Most of the time we know the truth, we just simply don't want to follow it due to laziness or lack of faith, not because we contradict something. Those with a firm faith will be led to always question their faith, but this is more of a reason for them to strengthen it, not to let it go, and if there is a reason for them to let it go because there is a better belief which is 100% consistent and pure, then they can accommodate themselves to that belief system instead, and reject the previous. If something is true, despite what one has been following his entire life because he grew up in that belief system, then why not follow the truth? We are given a heart, but we have a brain too, so we should use it.
Allah is forgiving, and will purify us just as long as we are righteous and continuously hold strong to our practices and leave behind sin, and He will continue to forgive just as long as we choose to be closer to Him than to lead ourselves astray.
We believe in the same oneness of God (if you're also absolutely monotheistic), the only difference is our scriptures. Islam is 100% the same way as it was when it was sent down, but the same cannot be said for the other Abrahamaic faiths, because there is evidence that they have been corrupted, so that is why we follow the Islamic scriptures instead--they are more reliable.
Thus, why I never identify myself with Islam. Yes, there is no god apart from the LORD. All matter of gods are just idols or demons. To be honest with you, that's the Islamic claim. Although you may find scriptural inconsistancies, know this my good companion that it changes nothing. For the LORD is jealous, the LORD doesn't want me to revert or to turn my back. If we look at it logical the Jewish Priesthood were more likely to be educated about the Torah leaving the masses without this knowledge. And subsequently were open foul play. People in postions of power corrupt things. It isn't my fault that people changed the Scriptures.
Yes, as Muslims, it is our obligation to follow everything in the Quran, that includes the 10 commandments, but the 10 commandments aren't our only obligations, there are far more than that.
I asked because before because I was discussing Marriage with a Orthodox Christian. The Seventh of the Tenth Commandments forbids Adultery. The fourth of the seventh of the Noahide Laws forbids Adultery.What is the issue at hand, is that in Islam a male Muslim is allowed to take up to four wifes. This is often the topic of discussion. If adultery is probidden then why in Islam is it allowed to marry up to four wifes despite being married? Also doesn't being married to so many women a demonstration that it might be just be a work? I am not trying to say anything you may not like. But I am trying to see all views. Or is it that these commandments and laws don't matter, and all matter of law is contained within the Quran rendering all us unlawful? King Soloman had many wifes, and that too causes much contraversy.
So you would rather follow scriptures that have been corrupted by their own followers, and you want to try your hardest to preserve these same corrupted scriptures through your practices, rather than following sound scriptures that have no corruption and are always protected by Allah rather than entrusted with human beings who would inevitably change them to suit their own desires?
At least, I wouldn't be able to make pretentious claims, for the LORD is jealous. I am to follow the decrees and commandments as I know. How flawed the human nature is. And no matter of things is free of corruption then what the LORD wills. Perfection doesn't exist, for that is a flawed description. To say anything is perfect is to cause the LORD an offence. Know this, I don't actually change anything. You'r views however are you'r not mine.
It won't change anything with what?
I refer to the flawed nature of men because of what you have said. We cannot put our faith in the hands of others because they are flawed and imperfect, unlike Allah who is absolute and perfect. So I would not dare to follow something that has been forbidden by Him and tainted by human beings in the past. Sinning is a part of our nature because it is a test from Allah to see who is greater in faith, but those who often sin should have a balance of hope and fear, not just hope. If they have hope, they will continue to sin with the assumption that if they will be forgiven no matter what, and those who have too much fear will sin because they have lost hope that they will be forgiven at all. So a person with hope, must ask for forgiveness from their sin, and with fear refrain from committing the sin again and obliging himself never to return to it so that hey may attain Allah's forgiveness completely. With that said, we have the choice to sin and to do good deeds, so we are not sinners all the time but just the same, we are not always committing good deeds. If we seek the guidance of Allah, we will always find Him there, we just have to put forth the effort rather than to sin over and over again saying "oh if Allah wanted to guide me, then why isn't He?" We have freedom, and we have to take advantage of our freedom to do good and always seek guidance, not to disobey. Yet, as a part of our nature, we will be sinning til the time of our death, and there are many reasons for this, and this is why ultimately, we seek the guidance of Allah.
Are you saying that the Torah and New Testiment is of no value? Sinning is what man doe's and he sins the sins that come naturally.
I do believe we should always expand our knowledge, even with our own scriptures, so that we may strengthen our faith; if we don't do that then we are following it blindly and we'd have a hard time refuting claims against our beliefs, right? In Islam, this is encouraged because we're not allowed to follow blindly and since it's the truth, we wouldn't have any problems doing so. However, there are some people who go to the extent by asking things which don't even concern them and cause doubts in their own hearts because they have the incapability of understanding what they are trying to find, or they are trying to find something that suits their personal own desires.
So Islam is more knowledge then faith?
Competition doesn't lead to contradiction, not always. Most of the time we know the truth, we just simply don't want to follow it due to laziness or lack of faith, not because we contradict something. Those with a firm faith will be led to always question their faith, but this is more of a reason for them to strengthen it, not to let it go, and if there is a reason for them to let it go because there is a better belief which is 100% consistent and pure, then they can accommodate themselves to that belief system instead, and reject the previous. If something is true, despite what one has been following his entire life because he grew up in that belief system, then why not follow the truth? We are given a heart, but we have a brain too, so we should use it.
I hope your not saying that everyone has to become a Muslim. I didn't grow up the 'system'. I entered into it! Trust me I use my brain.
Allah is forgiving, and will purify us just as long as we are righteous and continuously hold strong to our practices and leave behind sin, and He will continue to forgive just as long as we choose to be closer to Him than to lead ourselves astray.
Thus, why I never identify myself with Islam. Yes, there is no god apart from the LORD. All matter of gods are just idols or demons. To be honest with you, that's the Islamic claim. Although you may find scriptural inconsistancies, know this my good companion that it changes nothing. For the LORD is jealous, the LORD doesn't want me to revert or to turn my back. If we look at it logical the Jewish Priesthood were more likely to be educated about the Torah leaving the masses without this knowledge. And subsequently were open foul play. People in postions of power corrupt things. It isn't my fault that people changed the Scriptures.
Wait, so you reject Islam on the consensus that it's monotheistic and true? It's not your fault that people changed the scriptures, however you are responsible for continuing with corrupted scriptures and believing in them when they should not be believed in any longer because they are no longer from God. Once something is tampered with, it is no longer the same--it becomes something different.
I asked because before because I was discussing Marriage with a Orthodox Christian. The Seventh of the Tenth Commandments forbids Adultery. The fourth of the seventh of the Noahide Laws forbids Adultery.What is the issue at hand, is that in Islam a male Muslim is allowed to take up to four wifes. This is often the topic of discussion. If adultery is probidden then why in Islam is it allowed to marry up to four wifes despite being married? Also doesn't being married to so many women a demonstration that it might be just be a work? I am not trying to say anything you may not like. But I am trying to see all views. Or is it that these commandments and laws don't matter, and all matter of law is contained within the Quran rendering all us unlawful? King Soloman had many wifes, and that too causes much contraversy.
This answer will require some time for me to answer because there is a lot to put into account here, I will answer it later, but I will allow you to keep in mind that adultery is unfaithfulness to one's spouse and it is a very shameful action, and the consequences for it are very severe in Islam. Marriage, on the other hand, is completely different. Marriage is an honorable action.
At least, I wouldn't be able to make pretentious claims, for the LORD is jealous. I am to follow the decrees and commandments as I know. How flawed the human nature is. And no matter of things is free of corruption then what the LORD wills. Perfection doesn't exist, for that is a flawed description. To say anything is perfect is to cause the LORD an offence. Know this, I don't actually change anything. You'r views however are you'r not mine.
Pretentious claims such as? Perfection exists with Allah only, I didn't say or give any assumptions that it existed anywhere else otherwise. Also, saying that Allah get's jealous is another belittlement, because jealousy is an attribution to humans, not Allah.
Are you saying that the Torah and New Testiment is of no value? Sinning is what man doe's and he sins the sins that come naturally.
After their alterations, yes, they lack value.
So Islam is more knowledge then faith?
Islam encourages learning, both secular and religious. It discourages blind following. How do you know your faith is correct without knowing your faith? How would you be able to compare your faith with others' if you don't know about their faiths? You can't just be a part of a faith without knowing its components and why you are following it. There is a fine line between following the truth because one has found no contradictions against it, and following what they think is the truth simply based on faith alone, because if that were the case, then people would believe in anything and everything, even to the extent of irrationality. Knowledge tells one what the truth is, faith is believing in it. You would need both.
I hope your not saying that everyone has to become a Muslim. I didn't grow up the 'system'. I entered into it! Trust me I use my brain.
Well according to Islam, everyone is born a Muslim, until their parent's bring them up into a different faith. There can only be one true religion in this world right? and for me that is Islam, so why wouldn't I want people to follow the truth? If you follow your beliefs solely on faith, then you are allowing yourself to follow anything, which is why I am in confusion as to why someone who would think about their own faith, and knows that it is corrupted, would continue to follow it if there is clearly a religion which is very similar except it doesn't have the inconsistencies and is perfect since it is the word of Allah himself.
Allah is forgiving, and will purify us just as long as we are righteous and continuously hold strong to our practices and leave behind sin, and He will continue to forgive just as long as we choose to be closer to Him than to lead ourselves astray.
Word's so easy. Let's do, not think.
Of course, it doesn't count anyway unless put into action.
[QUOTE=*charisma*;1102634]Wait, so you reject Islam on the consensus that it's monotheistic and true? It's not your fault that people changed the scriptures, however you are responsible for continuing with corrupted scriptures and believing in them when they should not be believed in any longer because they are no longer from God. Once something is tampered with, it is no longer the same--it becomes something different.
I have to reject it, for the LORD of the Jew's and consequently the LORD GOD has decreed that I follow only His Decrees. Say what you want, it would only make me more pesistent and sturdy in meeting the LORD's decrees. In all matter of 'religions' the LORD is all that matters, for the First Commandment is to have no graven image, I understand this to be also a name of anything apart from the LORD. The LORD is Alpha and Omega. Don't advocate apostasy. What did the LORD God do when the Jews of old turned their backs? When the Jewish priests set up idols they were punished by the LORD, for the Scriptures are also of warnings. You wont get anywhere with your presumptions, tell me what verses are corrupted?
This answer will require some time for me to answer because there is a lot to put into account here, I will answer it later, but I will allow you to keep in mind that adultery is unfaithfulness to one's spouse and it is a very shameful action, and the consequences for it are very severe in Islam. Marriage, on the other hand, is completely different. Marriage is an honorable action.
Marriage between a man and a women. Therein cannot be a distinction between the correctness and incorrectness of such a definition of marriage.
Pretentious claims such as? Perfection exists with Allah only, I didn't say or give any assumptions that it existed anywhere else otherwise. Also, saying that Allah get's jealous is another belittlement, because jealousy is an attribution to humans, not Allah.
Are you saying that the Old Testatment doesn't have references to the LORD being jealous? "You shall have no other gods before me" Exodus 20:3. NIV. Is man allowed to have gods other then the LORD?. If you say that there is no jealously and that man is free to worship whatever in front of the LORD, that my good companion is idolatry. The LORD's decrees don't allow and the LORD's Commandments forbid it. There is nothing apart from the LORD (YHWH).[COLOR="navy"] "Then the LORD will be jealous for His land and take pity on his people[/COLOR]". Joel 2: 18. NIV. "You shall not bow to them or worship them, for I, the LORD, am a jealous God" Exodus 20:5.NIV.
Furthermore "I said to the LORD, "You are my LORD; napart from you I have no good thing". and "The Sorrows of those will increases who run after other gods" Psalm 16, 2 and 4. NIV. The LORD's add to the measure of life of those who chase after any god apart from the LORD. My life's desires are only for God, the LORD. "I have set the LORD always before me; Because he is at my right hand. I will not be shaken" and "You have made known to be the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, and with eternal pleasures at your right hand" Psalm 16: 8 and 11. NIV. Make's more sense, that the LORD gives with one hand and take's with another.
Further reading. Jeremiah 16:9-11.
After their alterations, yes, they lack value.
Don't worry that doesn't disparage me.
Islam encourages learning, both secular and religious. It discourages blind following. How do you know your faith is correct without knowing your faith? How would you be able to compare your faith with others' if you don't know about their faiths? You can't just be a part of a faith without knowing its components and why you are following it. There is a fine line between following the truth because one has found no contradictions against it, and following what they think is the truth simply based on faith alone, because if that were the case, then people would believe in anything and everything, even to the extent of irrationality. Knowledge tells one what the truth is, faith is believing in it. You would need both.
Comparing? Making a table of comparison only leads to apostasy from the LORD. I only know God as LORD, and there is nothing else that matters. The LORD defines all right and wrong. So, you say that faith is only true when their are no contradictions? Trust me, no man is free of the ability to contract himself. Thus, men to have only the LORD in their hearts. Good points, but it remains a difference in action.
Well according to Islam, everyone is born a Muslim, until their parent's bring them up into a different faith. There can only be one true religion in this world right? and for me that is Islam, so why wouldn't I want people to follow the truth? If you follow your beliefs solely on faith, then you are allowing yourself to follow anything, which is why I am in confusion as to why someone who would think about their own faith, and knows that it is corrupted, would continue to follow it if there is clearly a religion which is very similar except it doesn't have the inconsistencies and is perfect since it is the word of Allah himself.
I would disagree. I am following what the LORD decrees and not the fancies of men. Tell me, what is the best way of honoring the LORD, adhereing and keeping the decrees or getting involved in the thousands of years old argumen about what is the truth. I say this, therein is no TRUTH other then what the LORD says and wills. I don't follow anything of the world, I should take offence at that, but your forgiven. I am beginning to suspect your sincerity. This is starting to remind me of a conversation I had with a Muslim who had always been insintuating that I am in the wrong path, despite it being a good one. That's idolatry, nothing is perfect as the LORD God. To prove your point refer to the Torah.
Allah is forgiving, and will purify us just as long as we are righteous and continuously hold strong to our practices and leave behind sin, and He will continue to forgive just as long as we choose to be closer to Him than to lead ourselves astray.
Your adding behaviours as descriptive epihets! The LORD's business isn't open to man's reasoning. I like this exchange, but stop the indirect disrespect for other faiths. I have to say this rather then fall victim.Understand me, as I have understood you.
Last edited by NazariteofEhyah; 02-23-2009 at 11:36 AM.
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