EIGHT ADMONITIONS
from al ghazallis...dear beloved son Among these [eight admonitions], you have to do four of them and you do not do four of them so that your knowledge does not become your enemy on the Day of Judgment. First, those four things will be mentioned that you should not do.
1. PRINCIPLES OF DEBATE Firstly, as much as it’s possible you should not have [religious] debates with everyone and do not argue with anyone on any [religious or non-religious] issue because there are many [hidden] calamities (harms) in it and has more harms than benefits.
This work (debates and arguments) is the fountainhead (source) of all evil things such as ostentation (show off/Riya), jealousy, arrogance, resentment, enmity, pride, egoism, etc.
If an argument starts between you and someone else [about an issue] and you desire the truth to prevail then your intention to argue in this matter is said to be correct. In this regards, there are two indications (signs) of your right intentions: First [indication] is that, if truth is revealed from either your tongue or from the tongue of the opponent, it makes no difference to you. In other words, you are satisfied (content) in both cases that the truth has been revealed.
Second indication [of your right intention] is that you consider it better to argue on this [issue with your opponent] in solitude [and not in front of an audience].
But if you argue [or debate] on an issue and if you are certain that you are correct and the opponent is only arguing [for the sake of arguing] then you beware and do not argue with him/her and end your discussion right at that point otherwise grudges [and resentments] will born out of this and no benefit [whatsoever] will be achieved.
we strive for win /win scenarios not win/lose
if someone loses heart due to our words or actions then what victory is that but a shameful defeat
Firstly, as much as it’s possible you should not have [religious] debates with everyone and do not argue with anyone on any [religious or non-religious] issue because there are many [hidden] calamities (harms) in it and has more harms than benefits.
This work (debates and arguments) is the fountainhead (source) of all evil things such as ostentation (show off/Riya), jealousy, arrogance, resentment, enmity, pride, egoism, etc.
Argument and debate are at the heart of the process of discovery that has led to the rise of all civilisations. A society that seeks to limit argument and debate will stagnate intellectually.
Argument and debate are at the heart of the process of discovery that has led to the rise of all civilisations. A society that seeks to limit argument and debate will stagnate intellectually.
Peace
We should leave the arguments and debates for our scholars when it comes to religion. I don't expect you to understand though. May Allah forgive me. May my Muslim brothers and sisters forgive me also. Ameen.
Last edited by Misbah-Abd; 03-16-2018 at 10:03 PM.
Argument and debate are at the heart of the process of discovery that has led to the rise of all civilisations. A society that seeks to limit argument and debate will stagnate intellectually.
Peace
Pointless arguments dont help though. They seem to just cause more bad feelings etc
EIGHT ADMONITIONS
from al ghazallis...dear beloved son Among these [eight admonitions], you have to do four of them and you do not do four of them so that your knowledge does not become your enemy on the Day of Judgment. First, those four things will be mentioned that you should not do.
1. PRINCIPLES OF DEBATE Firstly, as much as it’s possible you should not have [religious] debates with everyone and do not argue with anyone on any [religious or non-religious] issue because there are many [hidden] calamities (harms) in it and has more harms than benefits.
This work (debates and arguments) is the fountainhead (source) of all evil things such as ostentation (show off/Riya), jealousy, arrogance, resentment, enmity, pride, egoism, etc.
If an argument starts between you and someone else [about an issue] and you desire the truth to prevail then your intention to argue in this matter is said to be correct. In this regards, there are two indications (signs) of your right intentions: First [indication] is that, if truth is revealed from either your tongue or from the tongue of the opponent, it makes no difference to you. In other words, you are satisfied (content) in both cases that the truth has been revealed.
Second indication [of your right intention] is that you consider it better to argue on this [issue with your opponent] in solitude [and not in front of an audience].
But if you argue [or debate] on an issue and if you are certain that you are correct and the opponent is only arguing [for the sake of arguing] then you beware and do not argue with him/her and end your discussion right at that point otherwise grudges [and resentments] will born out of this and no benefit [whatsoever] will be achieved.
we strive for win /win scenarios not win/lose
if someone loses heart due to our words or actions then what victory is that but a shameful defeat
Argument and debate are at the heart of the process of discovery that has led to the rise of all civilisations. A society that seeks to limit argument and debate will stagnate intellectually.
I agree. Too bad that I am banned from every atheist forum that I have posted to.
Abu Umamah reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “I guarantee a house on the outskirts of Paradise for one who leaves arguments even if he is right, and a house in the middle of Paradise for one who abandons lies even when joking, and a house in the highest part of Paradise for one who makes his character excellent.” Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 4800 Grade: Sahih(authentic) according to An-Nawawi
As-Salaam alaikum,
I concur with our Brother Ahmed Patel... and wish to say to that effect, that debating, arguing and disputing are innovations which throw doubt into the heart, even if the person reaches the truth and Sunnah. Allah Ta'ala says:--
"None disputes about the signs of Allah, except those who disbelieve" (40:4)
In the Hadith, the Prophet Sallallahu alaihi Wasallam, said:- "A people never went astray after being upon guidance except through disputation." [Tirmidhi]..then the Prophet, alaihis-Salaat Was-Salaam, read this ayat:
"This they set forth to you, only by way of argument.
Nay, but they are a contentious people" (43:58)
Al-Aajurree reports in ash-Sharee'ah (page 57) that a man came to Hasan al-Basree and said: "O Abu Sa'eed, let me debate with you about the religion". Al-Hasan replied: "As for me, I know my religion, if you have lost your religion, then go and look for it."
So, follow the religion of Islam as it came from Allah, Tabaraka Wa Ta'ala, to His Messenger, Sallallahu alaihi Wasallam...who explained it and his Sunnah to the Believers.... his companions, may Allah be pleased with them all... and through whom it reached us today.
We should leave the arguments and debates for our scholars when it comes to religion. I don't expect you to understand though. May Allah forgive me. May my Muslim brothers and sisters forgive me also. Ameen.
Argument and debate are at the heart of the process of discovery that has led to the rise of all civilisations. A society that seeks to limit argument and debate will stagnate intellectually.
Peace
I do agree when the intention is growth ...hence why I have notice our people so afraid to even challenge thinking any more ....once upon a time and intellectual for sake of clarity exchanged and sought out ..expands the soul...maybe it's us just creating a better habit in the way we discuss or keep sincere intention is to serve truth...we must contemplate and stimulate and challenge....there is a force, a conflict ..a Flint..that creates further pondering ...I've seen too many people who will just accept anything because they are so afraid or have been subjected to dumb third own reasoning because they are constantly told they have no right to think and reason..where as it's actually supported my growth..because I'm not afraid of seeking truth...truth shouldn't be attached to a personality...but Divine message..as imam ghazali has said can come from any tongue...we shouldn't limit expansion...maybe practice the art of debating with tolerance hikma....
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format_quote Originally Posted by Suzauddaula
Abu Umamah reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “I guarantee a house on the outskirts of Paradise for one who leaves arguments even if he is right, and a house in the middle of Paradise for one who abandons lies even when joking, and a house in the highest part of Paradise for one who makes his character excellent.” Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 4800 Grade: Sahih(authentic) according to An-Nawawi
The prophet was afraid to even say where he would reside, due to respecting this authority of guarantee wasn't his to give..in the Quran here is an asked about this ...so out of respect Quran is more authentic where there is contradiction..hence I'm very careful to quote hadiths...irrelevant what is seen as fabricated or authentic if it contradicts..Quran is a purer Source..and should be used falsify or testify what we come in contact with...
As-Salaam alaikum,
I concur with our Brother Ahmed Patel... and wish to say to that effect, that debating, arguing and disputing are innovations which throw doubt into the heart, even if the person reaches the truth and Sunnah. Allah Ta'ala says:--
"None disputes about the signs of Allah, except those who disbelieve" (40:4)
In the Hadith, the Prophet Sallallahu alaihi Wasallam, said:- "A people never went astray after being upon guidance except through disputation." [Tirmidhi]..then the Prophet, alaihis-Salaat Was-Salaam, read this ayat:
"This they set forth to you, only by way of argument.
Nay, but they are a contentious people" (43:58)
Al-Aajurree reports in ash-Sharee'ah (page 57) that a man came to Hasan al-Basree and said: "O Abu Sa'eed, let me debate with you about the religion". Al-Hasan replied: "As for me, I know my religion, if you have lost your religion, then go and look for it."
So, follow the religion of Islam as it came from Allah, Tabaraka Wa Ta'ala, to His Messenger, Sallallahu alaihi Wasallam...who explained it and his Sunnah to the Believers.... his companions, may Allah be pleased with them all... and through whom it reached us today.
Best Regards.
Remember brother Allaah signs, sadly are being ignored because we are not observing..if all the evidence points one way..irrelevant if our understandings differ due to the scholar one may follow to interpret or clarify.... God's signs even amongst us are not given the importance ...because we don't trust our relationship...how else do we get guidance..that feeling of bliss and assurness if that contact isn't available....it's there all the time ....there is a reason Allaah asks us to Question so He may clarify truth...Allaah says He will make us a witness to truth through the universe and within man's breast..Allaah will allow us to experience so we can correct our perception....where we are told to be careful is when we take an allegorical verse and toy with it in creating or distracting from truth....we have ponder between discerning and distinguishing the wisdom of what life teaches us and how the Quran is ever being clarified.... I do agree however that there are some this that are intimately clarified or experienced,that should be left intimate...as every soul tastes certain truths from where they are at..so yes here it can create further confusion...if we take maths as an analogy.. we build on the foundation layer by layer..depending on our sincerity and loyalty to truth...we won't restrict each other ...hence when and where our soul expands that's a symptom of growth, because we give each other that space and environment to discover the truth that is there to be sought...being careful to observe Divine boundaries for man....is such things magic , trying to astral travel etc..toying with such matters has shown we don't understand through the evidence that is manifested through peoples experience...experience has a very important role ...it shows us the boundaries carelessness..and where we are to encourage expansion and growth....as only Allaah knows the inner hearts of each souls and what each are being taught...awareness in the key to noting the subtle lessons we often may bypass..
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