What is the proof of the Coming of the Mahdi and the Decension of Isa?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Why don't YOU respond to my posts instead of continually evading the arguments, repeating your baseless assumptions, erroneous beliefs and self-refuting propositions? You only have repeated here what was already refuted and conveniently ignored the refutation, which betrays a lack of sincerity in one's commitment to the truth.


Petitio principii - you have committed the fallacy of assuming what you have yet to prove. You already assume a meaning for the verses provided on Prophget 'Isa's return and then you complain that there are no such verses! What you must do is FIRST substantiate your interpretation of the verses, which you have continually failed to do.

Secondly, the details of the return of Prophet Jesus pbuh are found throughout the Ahadith in the most authentic compilations, transmitted mutawâtir. You have provided no basis for rejecting such narrations.

Thirdly, your above question argues by implication that in the absence of verses speaking on Prophet Jesus's return, the aforementioned interpretation of the tawaffâ is unwarranted. The sane reader is left with the glaringly manifest question - "WHY??" How in the world does that logically follow?!
Actually, you've only spewed various wild claims, but when they are challenged you quickly shift ground, ignore, and repeat the same fallacious conclusions.

Haven't read much of the Qur'an?
40:78 And indeed We have sent Messengers before you [O Muhammad], of some of them we have related to you their story; and of some We have NOT related to you their story.

The Qur'an testifies to the greatness of Prophets like Idris, Ilyas, Al-Yasa' and Dhul-Kifl - all of whom are mentioned BY NAME. And yet, their story is not mentioned in the Qur'an at all. I challenge you to provide me with their COMPLETE story from the Qur'an and without reference to Ahadith. If you cannot, you have refuted your OWN argument!!

If their story isnt mentioned at all it probably isnt important or binding to do so..thats why Allah only spoke of 25 or so Prophets out of the countless ones that have been sent from time to time to guide humanity...its just important for me to know that they were 1) sent by God 2) that they were righteous pious men..in the end its their message that matters above all else..any other detail that isnt fancy found in the hadeeths is welcome though one has to be cautious those hadeeths havent been borrowed from christian or jewish sources.Also Alhamdullilah ive read much of the Qur'an..thats how i noticed the absense of the widely held belief that Prophet Isa is going to return.

Secondly, what about Prophet Muhammad saws?!? He is the GREATEST prophet and messenger, and yet a coherent and complete understanding of his life can only be obtained with reference to extra-qur'anic sources.

Thank God for the hadeeths..one cannot deny their importance as a guide to the life of the early muslims starting with Prophet Muhammed himself...its not only of historical importance but also is a source of wisdom and inspiration.

Thirdly, the reason why the full story of Prophet 'Isa pbuh's return is not mentioned (and I already have said this though you neglected my response) is because it is also a prophecy. It is part of the prophecies of Muhammad pbuh regarding the end times, in fact one of the Ashrât al-Kubrâ (major signs). The Qur'an is a book of guidance and thus contains the core elements of the Islamic message. Prophecies and practices are provided or elaborated in the Ahâdîth.

the full story isnt mentioned? brother there is no mentionof his return at all in the Qur'an!! not half not quarter nothing..zilch nada nada..go back to my previous posts pls.

you have said im not a complete Muslim before..now you're saying the hadeeths deal with prophecies not pillars of faith..so can one deduce now that..believing this story or not..is not a matter of faith?? and since i dont believe it..how do i possess less faith than you in Islam?..precisely how are my 'pillars of faith' compromised by not believing those prophecies?

Yes because the statement reeks of fallacies. When you say you want the ahâdîth to be in total accordance with the Qur'an, BY DEFAULT you are speaking about the Qur'an as YOU [mis]understand and [mis]interpret it. You simply have not shown a single conflict between the ahâdîth and the Qur'an in this entire thread yet you continue to spout this baseless and fallacious notion. We call this fallacy argumentum ad nauseum.
Are you saying that millions (literally) of hadith scholars were so BLIND that even after 1 and a half millenia they still missed HUNDREDS of ahâdîth in the MOST RENOWNED compilations, which are supposedly in BLATANT contradiction with the Qur'an? Jokes go in the Halal Fun section please.

I'm ignoring your diversionary tactics on music and adultery, btw.

Oh its not a diversion..its interlinked.. considering the fact that they have one thing in common....Isa's return, the prohibition of music that is as clear and explicit as the prohibition of drinking alcohol, gambling or eating pork , the punishment for adultery by stoning is MISSING from the Qur'an..the in the case adultery is clearly contradictory.

Also may i add that many people are being hindered from embracing Islam because of all these stuff that seem totally illogical.

Many scholars past and present , modern and classicalhave held the opinion that Prophet Isa (peace be upon him) died

Like the famous Egyptian reformer Muhammad Abduh..in his tafseer al Manar he said this "Tawaffa here means causing to die, as in the obvious and comprehensible significance."

The late Mufti of Al Azhar Shaykh Mahmood Shaltut said regarding this matter

"There is no authority in the Quran or the Sunna which can satisfy the heart upon the belief that Jesus was taken up to heaven with his body and that he is still alive there and that he shall descend therefrom to earth in the last days."

(Al-Fatawa, published by Al-Idara al-‘Ama lil-Saqafat al-Islamiyya bil-Azhar, pp. 52-58)


"The Quranic verses in this connection indicate that God had promised Jesus that He would cause him to die at the appointed time, and elevate him to Himself, and protect him from the disbelievers. This promise has been fulfilled. His enemies could not kill him or crucify him; instead, God caused him to die at the end of his appointed term and elevated him to Himself."

Classical Scholars like Imam Malik founder of the earliest school of thought in Islam "While most people believe that Prophet Isa did not die, Imam Malik said that he died."

(Majma al-Bahar, vol. i, p. 286)

Imam Ibn hazm
"Prophet Isa, peace be upon him, was neither killed nor crucified, but Allah caused him to die and then raised him. The Almighty has said: ‘They did not kill him or crucify him’; and ‘I will cause thee to die and exalt thee’; and ‘I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die Thou wert the Watcher over them’ and ‘Allah takes souls (yatawaffa) at the time of death’. Thus there are two kinds of wafat: sleep and death. Jesus in his words ‘When Thou didst cause me to die (falamma tawaffaita-ni)’ was not referring to sleep, but it is correct that by wafat he meant death."

(Mahalli fil-Fiqh, p. 23)


I think we should stop deluding ourselves that only Ahmadis hold this belief..was the Shaykh of Al Azhar an Ahmadi?? Imam Malik? was Muhammad Abduh an Ahmadi?? is there faith lacking brother Ansar? how come i never heard common people or leraned scholars accuse them of heresy before?

I previously wrote:
Let's see if you answered the challenge.


Fails to meet the challenge. This hadith talks about the Day of Judgement. Obviously Prophet Jesus pbuh is going to return and then pass away - you said that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh has said that Jesus has DIED.

Didnt you say in the case of Jesus the word tawaffa used in its various forms means that he ceased to exist on earth and that it DOESNT MEAN DEATH?..how come the Prophet used it to mean DEATH then? unless thats what the verse also means??

Also refer to the above quotes

WRONG. I can give you a verse straight from the Qur'an that says otherwise:
“Allah takes (yatwaffâ) the souls at the time of their death, AND THOSE THAT DIE NOT DURING THEIR SLEEP; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.” [Sûrah al-Zumar: 42]

Yes and sleep is called the 'small death' even by many scholars because our souls are held in Allah's hands..how can you be alive if you have no soul? Allah took Prophet Isa's soul..not his BODY. Also refer to the above quotes

Stop repeating blatantly false claims like this. Do I really have to RE-PASTE this article in the thread a FOURTH time?!

Answered by Sheikh Khâlid al-Sayf

The word “tawaffâ”

The word “tawaffâ” essentially means for something “to arrive at its fulfillment”, like the period of time being fulfilled of a person’s months and days on Earth. The word is also used to mean “to take or receive in full” like in “tawaffaytu al-mâl” meaning “I received the money in full. Actually, these two meanings are very close to each other.

The word “tawaffâ” does not mean “to die” except in the presence of a contextual indicator that shows that this meaning is intended. It may be used to mean death or other things, but this is something understood from the context in which the word is being used.

In Arabic, there are three usages in which the word “tawaffâ” is used:

The first is “sleep”. Allah says: “Allah takes (yatwaffâ) the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.” [Sûrah al-Zumar: 42]

Here the word “tawaffâ” refers to the taking the souls from their voluntary actions during sleep and withholding fully the rational faculties and discretion until the person wakes up.

The second is “death”. This is in the context of a person’s time coming to an end. Here, the soul is taken without the body, so that Allah takes over full possession of the soul. Allah says: “until, when death comes unto one of you, Our messengers receive him (tawaffathu) , and they neglect not.” [Sûrah al-An`âm: 61]

As for the body, there is no reference to it being taken or received. It remains on the Earth and is covered by the soil.

The third is the taking of the body and soul together. This is what happened with Christ (peace be upon him). In this way, he ceased to be in the state of the people of Earth who need food, drink, clothing, and rest. His state is not like that of the denizens of the Earth in such matters.

Here we have the meaning of “tawaffâ” in the verse: “Behold! Allah said: ‘O Jesus! I will take you (mutawaffîka) and raise you to Myself” [Sûrâh Âl `Imrân: 55] It means that Allah will take him and raise him up from the Earth without death. There are two possible, equally valid understandings of this:

1. Allah is saying: “I am raising you up wholly so that they will not beset you with anything.”

2. Allah is saying: “I am receiving you.”

Nowhere does Allah ever mention in the Qur’ân that Christ died or was killed. If Allah had wanted to inform us that Jesus (peace be upon him) had died, he would have said: “They did not kill him nor did they crucify him. Instead he died.” This is not what is being said in the Qur’ân. If Allah had intended death when he says “tawaffâ” that would make Christ (peace be upon him) no different than the rest of the people in that their souls are taken up. If Christ’s soul had left his body, his body would have remained on Earth like the bodies of the rest of the Prophets. This is why Allah says: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158] in order to make it clear that the raising up took place upon both the soul and the body.

This is attested to by all the authentic hadîth regarding the descent of Jesus (peace be upon him) at the end of time in body and soul. These hadîth are many and they are well-known. They have reached us with so many lines of transmission so as to be mutawâtir.

Jesus’ return is also attested to by Allah’s words: “And there is none of the People of the Scripture but will certainly believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ: 159]

This verse refers to his death after returning at the end of time. This is why the verb “will certainly believe” comes a promise that is indicative of the future tense.

Then we have the hadîth where the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “By Him in Whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (peace be upon him) will descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses, kill swine and abolish Jizya and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it.” [ (2222) and Sahîh Muslim (155)]

In summary, the term “tawaffâ” in Arabic does not in itself apply to the spirit to the exclusion of the body, or necessarily to both together, nor to sleep – except by way of the context in which it is used. This is the case for many Arabic words.

The word “raf`”

The word “raf`” essentially means “to place”. It can be used for physical objects or for abstract concepts. With respect o physical objects, its literal meaning is that of being moved to a higher position. And object can be raised. A plane or a wave can rise on its own.

With respect to abstract meanings, the term is understood according to the requirements of how it is being used. For example, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The pen is lifted from three, the child until he matures…” In this context, it refers to the absence of legal accountability. In another context, we say that a person experiences a raise in his social status, prestige, and nobility.

As for the meaning of “raf`” in the verse: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158], this refers to being raised in a physical, spatial sense. This is because when the word is used in connection with physical bodies, it is meant literally to mean movement to a higher position in space. This is what occurred with Christ (peace be upon him).

The understanding of actual movement through space is further supported by the fact that the verb is followed by prepositional phrase “ilayhi” (to Himself).

In summary, the term “raf`” as used in the verse is on its literal meaning that Jesus (peace be upon him) was raised up in both body and spirit, since the term is used literally in this way when referring to physical bodies. It is not to be understood metaphorically.

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Translation of Muhammed Asad the famous jewish journalist who embraced Islam and who also wrote the famous book 'The Road to Mecca'

Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth;

Those apostles We endowed with gifts some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor)...(Surah 2 verse 253)

and this is his commentary on the subject of 'raising ' (rafa'aa)

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammed Asad (may Allah have mercy on his soul)

The verb rafa'ahu (lit., "he raised him" or "elevated him") has always, whenever the act of raf' ("elevating") of human being is attributed to God, the meaning of "honouring" or "exalting". Nowhere in the Qur’an is there any warrant for the popular belief that God has "taken up" Jesus bodily, in his lifetime, into heaven. The expression "God exalted him unto Himself" in the above verse denotes the elevation of Jesus to the realm of God's special grace - a blessing in which all prophets partake

That's the point! Prophet Jesus pbuh will return as a FOLLOWER of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. He will not come as a Prophet, and this will be demonstrated by the fact that he will pray behind Imam Mahdi.

He is not a final Prophet, he is penultimate in prophethood and Muhammad pbuh is the final Prophet. Prophet Jesus will return as a follower of Muhammad pbuh; the position of Prophethood is one that is granted and does not necessarily continue throughout one's entire life. If that were the case then why did Muhammad saws become a prophet at the age of 40?

When Prophet Isa returns..hesgoing to return as a normal ordinary man? Allah is going to strip him of his title?? People will just call him Isa ibn Maryam??..It is clearly evident that this contradicts the verse..please don't beat around the bush.

Muslims are also commanded to sacrifice animals in many occasions. Does that mean we are all cruel? Every day you eat animals that were killed before they arrived on your plate. This is frankly the meekest and most inane of your 'arguments'!

I'm fully aware that they are sacrificed through out the length and breadth of this world..however its for our consumption ..thats not cruelty.but according to the hadeeths Prophet Isa peace be upon him is going to kill all the pigs just for the sake of killing....no benefit nothing..and its suppsedly going to be on such a massive scale.
..isnt there a hadeeth that says we are not to kill animals if we're not to benefit from them?


Lastly but not least i leave you all with this..please reflect on it..it will take time no doubt..and it could be scary..disbelieving in something you thought was an undeniable fact..May Allah help you in you journeys to seek the truth ameen.

"The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; messengers before him had indeed passed away." (5:75)
"And Muhammad is only a messenger — messengers have already passed away before him. If, then, he dies or is killed, will you turn back upon your heels?" (3:143)

The first verse explicitly states that all prophets before Prophet Isa had died.Muslims whatever their sect are united on this.The second verse..same words are used to state that ALL PROPHETS before Prophet Muhammed s.a.w died...and we know that no Prophet arose between Prophet Isa and Prophet Muhammed peace be upon them...Whenever the words qat khalat in the past tense (passed away) is used on the Qur'an about ANY HUMAN it means physical death

"Such has been the way of Allah with those who have passed away (khalat) before." (33:38)

"…before which other nations have passed away (qad khalat)." (13:30)

"…among nations that have passed away (qad khalat) before them." (46:18)

"Those are a people that have passed away (qad khalat)." (2:134)

there is only two options for Prophets..as stated by Allah in the latter part of the second verse..to be killed or to die naturally..there is no third option of occultation ..freezing in time for 2000 years..

All human 'gods' of the past according to the Qur'an are dead

"And those whom they call on besides Allah created nothing, while they are themselves created. Dead (are they), not living. And they know not when they will be raised." (Surah 16:20-21)
And we know from the Qur'an and fromjust observing christians they they do infact worship Prophet Isa peace be upon him

"Certainly they disbelieve who say: ‘Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Mary’." (Surah 5:72)

Brother please refer to the ayat you mentioned in Surah Al Anbiya verse 98..in CONTEXT..Allah is addressing who specifically?? which mushrikeen? those who take pious righteous men as objects of worship or those who make idols and worship them? Why would Allah punish pious men along with their misguided followers? does that make sense to you?! please read the whole chapter from start to finish Allah is addressing the Quraysh!! the very Quraysh who worshipped more than 360+ gods!


Brother Ansar and brother Ahmed..why do you quote scholars who put by verses like this
“And there is none of the People of the Scripture but will certainly believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ: 159]

and present them as definite proofs?? you both are salafis and i have a salafi translation of the Qur'aan..by Hilali and Muhsin Khan..

And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allâh and a human being], before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them.

Why does the scholar not mention that there is no CONSENSUS (ijmaa) on the interpretation of this verse by the scholars?? why is he presenting this as the proof? this is dishonesty in my opinion..

the interpretation that is most correct in my opinion is the interpretation of the scholars who said it means a Jew or a Christians death..yipee I'm not weird anymore!! I'm not alone!!

"So Peace is on me the day I was born the day that I die and the Day that I shall be raised up to life (again)(Surah 19 verse 33)

Ameen Peace be upon you our beloved Prophet !!

you all take care and sorry for the late reply i couldnt be botheredto drag myself to the public library...in the end we'll agree to disagree..and sorry if i have unintentionally offended any of you..do forgive me

fiamaanAllah ..May Allah accept your prayers and your fasts ameen.

format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah

If their story isnt mentioned at all it probably isnt important or binding to do so..

Then why is their name mentioned? This clearly refutes your argument. There are many Prophets whose stories are found in the Ahâdîth. Your response here is self-refuting; you complained:

so basically what these people are sayng is..the Qur'an didnt inform us of all the story regarding one of the greatest Prophets that ever lived

The answer - as you've now subtly admited - is YES! The Qur'an testifies to the greatness of Prophets Idris, Ilyas, Al-Yasa' and Dhul-Kifl but doesn't inform us of their story - those details are found in the Ahâdîth. The Qur'an does not delve into the details when they do not constitute an integral part of the moral theme being imparted in that passage. The details regarding the second coming of Jesus constitute prophecy and not a component of the Qur'anic guidance, hence it is found along with other prophecies in the Ahâdîth.

thats how i noticed the absense of the widely held belief that Prophet Isa is going to return.

Did you also notice the absence of the widely held practice of 'Îd Al-Fitr? I suppose you are not going to celebrate 'Îd, then.

And the belief that Prophet Îsa is going to return is NOT absent from the Qur'an, you just choose to reinterpret those passages in a way that conflicts with the prophetic narrations. As I said before (in the part of my post that you ignored), you are guilty of circular reasoning, petitio principii:

Petitio principii - you have committed the fallacy of assuming what you have yet to prove. You already assume a meaning for the verses provided on Prophget 'Isa's return and then you complain that there are no such verses! What you must do is FIRST substantiate your interpretation of the verses, which you have continually failed to do.

Secondly, the details of the return of Prophet Jesus pbuh are found throughout the Ahadith in the most authentic compilations, transmitted mutawâtir. You have provided no basis for rejecting such narrations.

Thirdly, your above question argues by implication that in the absence of verses speaking on Prophet Jesus's return, the aforementioned interpretation of the tawaffâ is unwarranted. The sane reader is left with the glaringly manifest question - "WHY??" How in the world does that logically follow?!
(from my last post)

Thank God for the hadeeths..one cannot deny their importance as a guide to the life of the early muslims starting with Prophet Muhammed himself...its not only of historical importance but also is a source of wisdom and inspiration.

Actually it is of religious importance since we are commanded to follow the way of Prophet Muhammad pbuh and a coherent and complete understanding of his life is only possible with reference to the Ahâdîth.

brother there is no mentionof his return at all in the Qur'an!! not half not quarter nothing..zilch nada nada..go back to my previous posts pls.

Am I going to have to keep repeating myself??

Petitio principii - you have committed the fallacy of assuming what you have yet to prove. You already assume a meaning for the verses provided on Prophget 'Isa's return and then you complain that there are no such verses! What you must do is FIRST substantiate your interpretation of the verses, which you have continually failed to do.

Secondly, the details of the return of Prophet Jesus pbuh are found throughout the Ahadith in the most authentic compilations, transmitted mutawâtir. You have provided no basis for rejecting such narrations.

Thirdly, your above question argues by implication that in the absence of verses speaking on Prophet Jesus's return, the aforementioned interpretation of the tawaffâ is unwarranted. The sane reader is left with the glaringly manifest question - "WHY??" How in the world does that logically follow?!
(from my last post)

you have said im not a complete Muslim before..now you're saying the hadeeths deal with prophecies not pillars of faith..so can one deduce now that..believing this story or not..is not a matter of faith??

Wrong. To have true Îmân one must believe in everything the Prophet Muhammad pbuh brought, including legislation, practices, prophecies and that which relates to fundamentals/pillars of faith. The fundamentals are that which constitue the Islamic message of belief and salvation. The prophecies detail one of those fundamentals, namely the day of Judgement.

and since i dont believe it..how do i possess less faith than you in Islam?

Your acceptance of Islam is incomplete because you choose to reject the prophecies of Prophet Muhammad pbuh and anyone who rejects any of the teachings of the Prophet pbuh has not completed their faith in him as God's messenger. Despite the length of this thread you still have not provided even a SINGLE excuse for rejecting the prophecies of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, not a SINGLE one!

Oh its not a diversion..its interlinked.. considering the fact that they have one thing in common

You've shot yourself in the foot by mentioning practices, laws and prohibitions that aren't in the Qur'an. The ENTIRE religion consists of innumerable practices, laws and prohibitions that aren't mentioned in the Qur'an. I suppose we won't be wishing you a happy 'Îd!

....Isa's return, the prohibition of music that is as clear and explicit as the prohibition of drinking alcohol, gambling or eating pork , the punishment for adultery by stoning is MISSING from the Qur'an..the in the case adultery is clearly contradictory.

Red-herring.

Also may i add that many people are being hindered from embracing Islam because of all these stuff that seem totally illogical.

Rubbish. I challenge you to provide even a single logical contradiction in "all these stuff". You have an excellent track record of failing challenges and providing unsubstantiated claims.

Many scholars past and present , modern and classicalhave held the opinion that Prophet Isa (peace be upon him) died

All the people you mention are either contemporaries with no scholastic standing in the religion, or they are people to whom deviant ideas have been wrongly ascribed. Imâm Mâlik NEVER denied the ascension of Prophet Îsa, in fact he discusses in great detail rulings pertaining to his return!!

Didnt you say in the case of Jesus the word tawaffa used in its various forms means that he ceased to exist on earth and that it DOESNT MEAN DEATH?..how come the Prophet used it to mean DEATH then? unless thats what the verse also means??

No, that's what the word also means (cf. Qur'an 39:42). Note also your claim here has been shown to be a baseless lie. You claimed that the Prophet SAID Jesus died. The Prophet saws didn't say anything about Jesus! He only quoted the ayat containing the words of Jesus.

Yes and sleep is called the 'small death' even by many scholars because our souls are held in Allah's hands

It doesn't matter whether sleep is nicknamed 'small death'; by agreeing with me you have conceded to the fact that the following claim you made was a baseless LIE:

The word tawaffa in the hadeeth and the Qur'an means death..this is its apparengt meaning..in many places in the Qur'an this word is used in its many forms and in each and every instance it is to do with death..

The above assertion is that the verb is used exclusively to mean DEATH in the Qur'an and Ahadith whereas the reality - as you have now admitted - is the opposite!! The verb is used for both SLEEP AND DEATH in ayat 39:42. Hopefully you will maintain some integrity and admit that you were wrong in saying tawaffa was used exclusively for death.

..how can you be alive if you have no soul?

Allah swt takes the soul during sleep and yet we dont say that every sleeping person is dead!

The soul is taken by Allah swt during sleep but its relationship with the body has not been severed.

Translation of Muhammed Asad the famous jewish journalist who embraced Islam and who also wrote the famous book 'The Road to Mecca'

So you ignore all the linguistic analysis I have provided you in Shaykh Khâlid's article, with evidences from the Qur'an and Ahadith, and instead you fallaciously appeal to a contemporary translator and journalist with no formal Islamic education!

and this is his commentary on the subject of 'raising ' (rafa'aa)

Which was already answered by Shaykh Khâlid:

As for the meaning of “raf`” in the verse: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158], this refers to being raised in a physical, spatial sense. This is because when the word is used in connection with physical bodies, it is meant literally to mean movement to a higher position in space. This is what occurred with Christ (peace be upon him).

The understanding of actual movement through space is further supported by the fact that the verb is followed by prepositional phrase “ilayhi” (to Himself).

In summary, the term “raf`” as used in the verse is on its literal meaning that Jesus (peace be upon him) was raised up in both body and spirit, since the term is used literally in this way when referring to physical bodies. It is not to be understood metaphorically.

When Prophet Isa returns..hesgoing to return as a normal ordinary man? Allah is going to strip him of his title??

I noticed you conveniently ignored my question about the Muhammad pbuh attaining prophethood at 40!
Prophet Jesus pbuh's status with God remains the same. He has the status of a Nabi because he served as a Nabi during part of his lifetime. It is not necessary for one to serve as a Nabi for their entire life to attain this status; in fact the vast majority of the prophets of God were NOT prophets during their entire lifetime. Prophet Jesus pbuh will return as a leader. This means that he still has the same lofty status of prophethood with Allah swt but he will not function as a prophet during the specific time following his second coming.

It is clearly evident that this contradicts the verse

Your position is self-refuting. If you choose to reinterpret the quranic verse on Jesus's return in a way that conflicts with the ahadith then you have no argument against someone who reinterprets the verse on 'seal of the prophets', in a way that conflcits with the hadith. In fact, the Qadianis reinterpret both!

I'm fully aware that they are sacrificed through out the length and breadth of this world..however its for our consumption ..thats not cruelty.but according to the hadeeths Prophet Isa peace be upon him is going to kill all the pigs just for the sake of killing....

He is not going to kill pigs for the sake of killing, he is going to kill by the decree of Allah swt.

and its suppsedly going to be on such a massive scale.

It matters how the animals are killed, not how many. If they are killed in a cruel fashion that would be objectionable.

The first verse explicitly states that all prophets before Prophet Isa had died.

No, it says that messengers have passed away before him, it doesn't say all messengers.

Brother please refer to the ayat you mentioned in Surah Al Anbiya verse 98..in CONTEXT..Allah is addressing who specifically?? which mushrikeen?

This is what you REFUSE to do when you quote 16:20-21. Context shows that it is not Christians being discussed here, this surah was revealed in Makkah and it is the Makkan idolaters being discussed here. You may not realize that the 'idols' the makkans worshipped were of human origin:
http://www.islamicboard.com/57660-post14.html
I discussed Al-Lat, Uzza and Manat in the above post.

those who take pious righteous men as objects of worship or those who make idols and worship them? Why would Allah punish pious men along with their misguided followers? does that make sense to you?!

So it seems you had no idea what 'Na'ûdhubillah' meant when I said:

The Qur'an also says that the mushrikeen will go to hell alongside those whom they worshipped besides Allah swt (Qur'an 21:98). If you want to strip verses of their context and apply them absolutely then you are also forced to claim that Prophet 'Isa pbuh is destined for hell (Na'ûdhubillah!)

Why does the scholar not mention that there is no CONSENSUS (ijmaa) on the interpretation of this verse by the scholars?? why is he presenting this as the proof? this is dishonesty in my opinion..

The primary meaning is that given. Other meanings do not hold the same weight when all evidence is examined; from Ma'âriful-Qur'ân:

Reproduced below is a report from Sayyidnâ Abû Hurairah [r]:

The Holy Prophet [s] said: The son of Maryam shall definitely reappear as a just ruler. He will kill the Anti-Christ and the swine. He will break the Croos and worship shall be made for Allah alone, the one Lord of all the worlds. Then, Sayyidnâ Abû Hurairah said: Read if you wish, the verse of the Qur'an
إِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِه (159) which mentions that not one person from out of the People of the Book will remain without having believed in Sayyidnâ 'Îsâ before his death. Sayyidnâ Abû Hurairah then said with stress 'Before the death of 'Îsâ [a]' and he repeated it three times. (Qurtubî)

This Tafsîr (explanation) of the verse under reference stands proved from a highly venerated Companion such as Sayyidnâ Abû Hurairah [r] on the added strength of sound chain of narrators. This report establishes that this verse is related to the coming of Sayyidnâ 'Îsâ [a] close to the Qiyâmah (Doomsday).

As based on this tafsîr, this verse is a conclusive evidence that the death of Sayyidnâ 'Îsâ [a] has not yet come to pass. (Shafy, Ma'âriful-Qur'ân, vol. 2., p. 626)

taking the latter part of your post concerning the verse ..why then do scholars DIFFER on it?? you're confusing me brother..the Qur'an i have is a salafi translation and it CLEARLY says the verse has TWO INTERPREATIONS..in other words its not AGREED UPON No consensus ijmaa nothing!..why do you IGNORE this?? i said this like three or four times each time you dodge it and continue to present this verse as the proof and then you want me to believe the verse refers to Prophet Isa's return?

format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah

taking the latter part of your post concerning the verse ..why then do scholars DIFFER on it?? you're confusing me brother..the Qur'an i have is a salafi translation and it CLEARLY says the verse has TWO INTERPREATIONS..in other words its not AGREED UPON No consensus ijmaa nothing!..why do you IGNORE this?? i said this like three or four times each time you dodge it and continue to present this verse as the proof and then you want me to believe the verse refers to Prophet Isa's return?

First of all the interpretations are NOT conflicting. The primary meaning is that mawtihî refers to Jesus pbuh as established by all the narrations from the sahâba and tabi'în. This is the meaning that has been agreed upon by all the commentators and is mentioned in the Khan-Hilali translation as well before providing the secondary meaning. The secondary meaning does NOT conflict with the primary meaning, hence it can also be accepted. So the Jews at the time of Prophet Jesus pbuh would repent at the time of their death and believe in him but like Pharoah it would be useless for them. This does not contradict the primary meaning given that they will all believe in Jesus before the death of Jesus pbuh.

Secondly, the Khan-Hilali translation is an explanatory translation, NOT a commentary. It briefly mentions one or two interpretations without going into detail about the evidences or what different scholars say and what they have concluded on to be the strongest meaning. Hence, it is foolish to take this brief reference to different opinions in the translation as evidence against consensus.

Thirdly, the Khan-Hilal translation is not free of errors either. For example, verse 68:49 on Prophet Yunus is translated by them as follows:
Had not a Grace from his Lord reached him, he would indeed have been [left in the stomach of the fish, but We forgave him], so he was cast off on the naked shore, while he was to be blamed

The parenthetic interpretation provided here is not found in any of the exegetic sources. The fatwâ committee of Shaykh Abdul-Wahhâb At-Turayrî comments:

The inserted text in brackets in the Khan/Hilali translation is not from the Qur'an. It is not a translation. It is inserted commentary. This is one of the major shortcomings of the Khan/Hilali translation.

Though Khan/Hilali do not site their source for this insertion of theirs, it is possible that their insertion is based on a misunderstanding of Ibn Jurayj's interpretation of the verse. [Ibn Jurayj had a very peculiar interpretation of this verse]


[...]The opinion of the majority of commentators - and not that of Ibn Jurayj - is the most likely one and the one that is apparent from the Arabic language.
Also, it is quite obvious that the Khan/Hilali insertion accords neither with the straightforward interpretation of the verse nor with Ibn Jurayj's peculiar view, since according to Ibn Jurayj, there is no shore being referred to in the verse, but instead the gathering of the Hereafter.

More info here. So here the Khan/Hilali translation provides an interpretation that has not been provided by any commentators, let alone having strength on its own! This isn't the only example - the Khan-Hilali has some good points for sure, but it also has some glaring weaknesses that extend beyond just language and format.

For these reasons, you arguments above are utterly baseless.

10: 39. Rather they deny what they cannot understand and when the explanation of it comes to them. Such is the denial of those who preceded them and look at the outcome of the deniers of the truth.

Abu Muhammad Al-Barbahaari stated in his Sharhus-Sunnah “If you hear a man who discredits the traditions and does not accept them or he denies something of the information from the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam), then doubt his Islam for he is a man of the vilest thought and speech. He is in fact discrediting the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and his Sahaabah.” He also stated “Any one of the people of the qiblah is not expelled from the fold of Islam until he has rejected a verse of the Book of Allah the Mighty and Sublime or has rejected something from the traditions of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam), or prays to other than Allah or slaughters for other than Allah. If so, it is your duty to expel him from the fold of Islam.”

He further stated “Whosoever rejects a single verse from Allah's Book has rejected the Book in its entirety, and whosoever rejects ahadeeth of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) has certainly rejected the entirety of the traditions and is by that a disbeliever in Allah the Most Great.”


http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...l-burhaan.html

Alhamdullilah i donot reject any verse of the Noble Qur'an ..and if I'm a nonbeliever accoridng to you..then that means you consider Shaykh Mahmud Shaltut ( Al Azhar Islamic University) Muhammed Asad (Road to Mecca) , Muhammed Ghazali etc etc are nonbelievers....i don't remember there being any fatwas against them when they made those comments or even now from any scholar..? and now all of a sudden there is a fatwa from an err ...internet forumer..ajeeb!

Just wanted to say that some scholars (real scholars) e.g Ibn Khaldun, considered that there was no such thing as the Mahdi.

This opinion is discussed (and refuted) in this lecture by Sh Tawfique Chowdhury. He mentions why we can't deny the mahdi in the following lecture
Countdown to the Mahdi (from about 10 minutes in he talks about it):
http://www.alkauthar.org/audiolinks.asp

The main argument against this opinion is that the hadith have reached the level of muttawatir.