Hmmm they dont look like very convincing miricles to me. Especially the first one. THe revaltion of the Koran being a miricle?
If I was a disbelievr during those times, it would take much more of a genuine mircle that those decribed in your link.
Anyways if these miricles were so great why the fascination to convert people to islam by the sword?
Surely if these miricles were so great conversion would not have been necessary and people would have converted by their own free will after seeing such greaaness.
jitty, what makes you think people got converted by the sword? do you even know the reasons behind all them battles? who attacked first? if someone punched you in the face - would you want to defend yourself?
and yeh the qur'an is a miracle - if you think its not, then how come not even one letters been changed over 1400years? if you dont have any guidance and guidance comes to you, you know how to live your life to be succesful, that is a miracle.
jitty, what makes you think people got converted by the sword? do you even know the reasons behind all them battles? who attacked first? if someone punched you in the face - would you want to defend yourself?
and yeh the qur'an is a miracle - if you think its not, then how come not even one letters been changed over 1400years? if you dont have any guidance and guidance comes to you, you know how to live your life to be succesful, that is a miracle.
Just because "not even one letters been changed over 1400years" doesnt make it a miracle does it?
Its not a question of who attacked who first is it? If the prophet was so great why did he resort to violence to cause people to convert? Surely if he was so great and a messenger from god he would have used more divine techniques rather than looting caravans.
so you think a whole book that hasn't and couldn't ever be changed by man over 1400 years and never will be is not a miracle? if so then how come the bible and the torah have all been changed and even been destroyed yet the qur'an never has?
even if all the copies of the qur'an did get somehow destroyed - there are alot of muslims who have learnt it all off by heart, that even includes some members off this forum. so it can never get destroyed till the day of judgement, not just that, but it is a book of guidance and shows man how to be successful in this life and the hereafter. that is a true miracle, do you know any other book that can do this?
regarding your second question - yeh it is a matter of who attacked first, if someone attacks you - then you would do your best to defend yourself. a prophet is an example to the followers of that time, whereas our beloved Prophet Muhammad sal Allaahu alayhi wasalam was an example for all of mankind, so if he never defended himself physically, then the future generations would be in despair because they surely wouldn't be able to do prophetic miracles, so they wouldn't have a example to follow to defend themselves.
i hope you can learn abit more about the life of our beloved Prophet Muhammad sal Allaahu alayhi wasalam from the following link, just check his (peace be upon him)'s biography out and you may see the reasons behind all the things that happened.
Just because "not even one letters been changed over 1400years" doesnt make it a miracle does it?
Its not a question of who attacked who first is it? If the prophet was so great why did he resort to violence to cause people to convert? Surely if he was so great and a messenger from god he would have used more divine techniques rather than looting caravans.
Srry but this funny. 1426 years and not the smallest change and your saying tahts not a miracle? Tell me, how many versions of the bible are there? Comparing it with the old and new testament of which there are over a hundred verions in existence, its quite a miricle that the Quran hasnt changed at all.
Your second accusation doesnt make sense at all. Tell me, if someone was to attack you on the grounds that they dont like what your saying, then would you not defend yourself? or would you just sit there and let them hurt you? it common sense. You would defend yourself.
Last edited by Ibn Abi Ahmed; 12-02-2005 at 02:38 PM.
“Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun
"It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl
so you think a whole book that hasn't and couldn't ever be changed by man over 1400 years and never will be is not a miracle? if so then how come the bible and the torah have all been changed and even been destroyed yet the qur'an never has?
even if all the copies of the qur'an did get somehow destroyed - there are alot of muslims who have learnt it all off by heart, that even includes some members off this forum. so it can never get destroyed till the day of judgement, not just that, but it is a book of guidance and shows man how to be successful in this life and the hereafter. that is a true miracle, do you know any other book that can do this?
thanks
Who says it "couldn't" be changed? If someone did try to change it they wouldnt be around for long would they? They'd be dead! Because it says in the Koran that those who challange it or try to change it should be killed!
So who in their right mind would even try to change it?
Therefore, no I would not classify this a miracle.
Srry but this funny. 1426 years and not the smallest change and your saying tahts not a miracle? Tell me, how many versions of the bible are there? Comparing it with the old and new testament of which there are over a hundred verions in existence, its quite a miricle that the Quran hasnt changed at all.
Your second accusation doesnt make sense at all. Tell me, if someone was to attack you on the grounds that they dont like what your saying, then would you not defend yourself? or would you just sit there and let them hurt you? it common sense. You would defend yourself.
Who says it "couldn't" be changed? If someone did try to change it they wouldnt be around for long would they? They'd be dead! Because it says in the Koran that those who challange it or try to change it should be killed!
Ive never read that in the Quran. But what I HAVE READ and what is clearly stated in the Qurann is that Allah the Al Mighty will guard it from being changed.
So who in their right mind would even try to change it? To deny that there is a God and that Islam isnt the true religion. There are many enemies of Islam.Therefore, no I would not classify this a miracle.
It is a miracle beacuse it is guarded by The Al Mighty and it is the Way Of Life.
Who says it "couldn't" be changed? If someone did try to change it they wouldnt be around for long would they? They'd be dead! Because it says in the Koran that those who challange it or try to change it should be killed!
So who in their right mind would even try to change it?
Therefore, no I would not classify this a miracle.
That wouldnt stop people from trying. There have been those who even wrote other "new" ones, but it never spread, becuase it cant. The protection on the Quran is infinite, there is no way it will ever be changed. Simply it never will. Allah has even challenged you:
23. And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'ân) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Sûrah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allâh, if you are truthful.
24. But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.
Therefore the protection on the Quran is a miracle.
“Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun
"It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl
First of all, conversion through the sword is forbidden in islam. You can't force someone to become a muslim. The Prophet never fought so that he could force people to become muslims, the battles occured for a totally different reason.
Second of all, you claimed that the Qur'an says that if someone tries to change it, he or she should be killed.
I claim you are a liar. Where does the Qur'an say this?
And to finish of... The Prophet performed a lot of miracles. One example is the splitting of the moon.
Another is his night journey to Jerusalem.
Also, once water came out from his fingers so that the companions could drink the water.
To sum up:
* You have claimed that the Prophet converted people through the sword.
Lie #1
* You have claimed that the Qur'an orders the killing of those that try to change the Qur'an.
Lie #2
1426 years and not the smallest change and your saying tahts not a miracle? Tell me, how many versions of the bible are there? Comparing it with the old and new testament of which there are over a hundred verions in existence, its quite a miricle that the Quran hasnt changed at all.
I believe that there is nothing miraculous about a text surviving unchanged for this amount of time.
Think of all the ancient writers like Herodotus, Hesiod, Plato and Aristotle whose works survive in their original forms. We even have some of Aristotle's lecture notes (such as his Politics) and papyri by Hesiod dating from the first century BCE. Are these miracles?
I believe that there is nothing miraculous about a text surviving unchanged for this amount of time.
Think of all the ancient writers like Herodotus, Hesiod, Plato and Aristotle whose works survive in their original forms. We even have some of Aristotle's lecture notes (such as his Politics) and papyri by Hesiod dating from the first century BCE. Are these miracles?
Peace
Those arent religious texts which were revealed by God. The Quran is, and so were the original Testaments, and they were changed, and yet the Quran remains unchanged.
“Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun
"It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl
First of all, conversion through the sword is forbidden in islam. You can't force someone to become a muslim. The Prophet never fought so that he could force people to become muslims, the battles occured for a totally different reason.
So why did people all of a sudden decide to embrace Islam? What was the purpose of these wars? You are saying they were not necessary then?
He looted caravans, surely that is illegal. He commited crimes against helpless people. What they they do that was so wrong that they deserved to be looted?
So why did people all of a sudden decide to embrace Islam? What was the purpose of these wars? You are saying they were not necessary then?
He looted caravans, surely that is illegal. He commited crimes against helpless people. What they they do that was so wrong that they deserved to be looted?
salam
can you prove that? battles were taken place to protect the muslims from the kuffars, you won't just stand there and let a person rob you and your family? muslims had a right to fight against the kuffars to protect themselves and their religion
and your source of info for the looting is unreliable so i disregard that fact.
wasalam
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