Vanilla?

[Starrynight]

So I just learned about vanilla extract. What foods have vanilla extract in them? Is there any other hidden alcohol that I should be aware of?
How much alcohol does something have to have before it is haram?
Thank you!

[Tyrion]

I just found out about this a couple of days ago... :/ I personally have trouble seeing how this could be a serious issue, since the amount of alcohol used in this stuff probably isn't anywhere near the amounts that can get you intoxicated (right?), but I'd still like to hear some scholarly opinions if there are any...

EDIT: The wise and all knowing Shaykh Google is giving me mixed responses. Lovely. I suppose I'll just stick with my own judgment on the issue.

[Futuwwa]

If it's only a trace amount, I don't see how it would be an issue. It is obvious from the Quran that it's intoxication that makes wine-drinking sinful. Alcohol, as such, is not mentioned in any Islamic scripture. "Wine and strong drink" are. Alcohol did not exist as a concept in Arabic until the High Middle Ages when chemists in al-Andalus managed to distill it and identify it as the common, intoxicating element in (what is today known as) alcoholic drinks.

If both the alcohol concentration in the substance and the total amount ingested is on an order of magnitude way below what would cause intoxication, I don't see the issue. It's not feasible to maintain an absolute standard of "even the tiniest microscopic amount is haraam". If you think so, you probably shouldn't go to a hospital, they use distilled alcohol for disinfection all the time there. Or go outside for that matter, some drunk may just have exhaled there and a few molecules of ETOH get in via your breath.

[Ramadhan]

Alcohol, as such, is not mentioned in any Islamic scripture.

no, but khamr is. Allah specifically tells us in the Qur'an to stay away from khamr.
and khamr is intoxicants, which should cover any alcoholic drink and drugs, etc.
The term alcohol is not invented until centuries after the Qur'an is revealed. Likewise, by your logic, ecstasy, crystal meth and cocaine are not haram because they are not mentioned specifically in any islamic scripture?

If both the alcohol concentration in the substance and the total amount ingested is on an order of magnitude way below what would cause intoxication, I don't see the issue. It's not feasible to maintain an absolute standard of "even the tiniest microscopic amount is haraam". If you think so, you probably shouldn't go to a hospital, they use distilled alcohol for disinfection all the time there. Or go outside for that matter, some drunk may just have exhaled there and a few molecules of ETOH get in via your breath.

True. But why risk ingesting haram things when you can do away with it?
Is vanilla extract so important in your life that you must have them?
It is one thing when you don't know or if you cannot help it (like your examples above), but to deliberately go to a supermarket and buy some extracts that you know containing alcohol and use them in something that you would consume later is different matter altogether.

[sister herb]

I asked before all ice cream producers in my country do they use any kind of ingredients which may include alcohol to they products like to vanilla ice cream and they answered to me that they don´t. But maybe they use other kind of ingredients in here than in some other country?

[Starrynight]

I'm not sure about the ingredients. I'm in the USA by the way.

[Ramadhan]

I asked before all ice cream producers in my country do they use any kind of ingredients which may include alcohol to they products like to vanilla ice cream and they answered to me that they don´t.

Imo, this is a very good approach for this kind of issue: to seek clarification on matters that are subhat (grey area).

[Futuwwa]

no, but khamr is. Allah specifically tells us in the Qur'an to stay away from khamr.
and khamr is intoxicants, which should cover any alcoholic drink and drugs, etc.
The term alcohol is not invented until centuries after the Qur'an is revealed. Likewise, by your logic, ecstasy, crystal meth and cocaine are not haram because they are not mentioned specifically in any islamic scripture?

You could try actually reading what I say rather than committing straw men. Try it out for once instead of hounding me for everything I say. I was never arguing for any kind of general permissibility of alcoholic drinks.

By your contrary logic, anything that could theoretically cause intoxication if ingested in an arbitrarily high amount would be haraam. Sugar, for instance. You can do away with it, so your last distinction between things that you "must" have and things you don't need doesn't apply.

[Futuwwa]

I asked before all ice cream producers in my country do they use any kind of ingredients which may include alcohol to they products like to vanilla ice cream and they answered to me that they don´t. But maybe they use other kind of ingredients in here than in some other country?

Well, most of the "vanilla" ice cream sold doesn't use real vanilla, but rather synthetic vanilline. The cheap ice cream they sell in one-litre rectangular packages certainly does that. Pretty much anything flavoured by real vanilla should have little black dots in it.

[Ramadhan]

You could try actually reading what I say rather than committing straw men. Try it out for once instead of hounding me for everything I say. I was never arguing for any kind of general permissibility of alcoholic drinks.

So please enlighten me, what is your point in mentioning that alcohol is not mentioned in any Islamic scripture (and afaik, there is only ONE Islamic scripture, and that is Al Qur'an).
By the way, since when I hounded you for everything you say?
Why do you get so sensitive when I am producing my evidence from Qur'an and sunnah?

By your contrary logic, anything that could theoretically cause intoxication if ingested in an arbitrarily high amount would be haraam. Sugar, for instance. You can do away with it, so your last distinction between things that you "must" have and things you don't need doesn't apply.

This is a perfect strawmen.
did I ever say that "anything that could theoretically cause intoxication if ingested in an arbitrarily high amount would be haraam"
Intoxicants were defined by our Prophet Sayyidina Mohammed Sallallahu Alaihi Wassallum when he said in the authentic hadith that was reported by Abu Da’wwod and Al Tirmithi: whatever a lot of it intoxicates a person, little of it is forbidden.


Read again what I wrote, there might be something good in there.

And before you launched into baseless accusation, I never said vanilla extract is halal or haram. this is what I wrote:
It is one thing when you don't know or if you cannot help it (like your examples above), but to deliberately go to a supermarket and buy some extracts that you know containing alcohol and use them in something that you would consume later is different matter altogether.

[Ramadhan]

Here's information on vanilla:

VANILLA PRODUCTS:

1. Vanilla Beans: Vanilla beans are identified as the properly cured and dried fruit-pods of Vanilla planifolia in vanilla standard 21-CFR-169.3. Vanilla Extracts and Vanilla Powders: The reminder of the standard is involved with describing in general terms how the extract is made and what other ingredients can be used. It also defines other products related to pure vanilla extract (what constitutes them and how they can be labeled).

1. Vanilla extract (extracted with alcohol).

1. Vanilla flavoring (extracted with alcohol)

1. Concentrated vanilla flavoring (extracted with alcohol)

1. Vanilla powder (no alcohol is used)

1. Vanilla-Vanillin extract (extracted with alcohol)

1. Vanilla-Vanillin flavoring (extracted with alcohol)

1. Vanilla-Vanillin powder (Vanillin may be obtained with or without alcohol)

The more significant statement in the standard, which should be noted, require that the finished extract have no less than 35% ethyl alcohol and contains no less than one unit of vanilla bean per gallon. There is no animal derived ingredients are used in the above products.
VANILLA WITHOUT ALCOHOL:

1. New Methods of Extractions: Modern methods of extraction are used such as supercritical carbon dioxide extraction and reverse osmosis for concentration. These methods produce useful products for industrial flavoring but they either fail to fit the regulatory requirements (alcohol extraction) for standard products, but they are expensive. These specialized products differ in solubility, flavor profile, and appearance but add to the list of natural vanilla flavoring available to food and beverages Halal manufacturers.

1. Vanilla beans: Pure Vanilla beans (21CFR-169.3) are available for both Halal food manufacturers for processed foods and common consumers for home bake products.

1. Vanilla Flavor: A vanilla flavor may be in fact being non-alcoholic but it has to be outside of standard of identity.

1. Vanilla Powder: This is a standard vanilla product (21CFR-169.179). Vanilla powder is a mixture of ground vanilla beans or vanilla oleoresin or both with one or more of the following optional blending ingredients (a) Sugars, (b) dextrose, (c) Lactose, (d) Food Starch, (e) dried corn syrup, (f) Gum acacia. Vanilla sugar is different from vanilla powder with sugar. Vanilla Sugar is made with sugar and vanilla extract and considered as Haram ingredient because of alcohol.

1. Vanilla-Vanillin Powder: This is the same, as vanilla powder but contains not more than one ounce of added vanillin. This is also a standard product (21CFR-169.182). But this product is Halal only if added vanillin is obtained from vanilla bean without alcohol.

Vanillin a Halal or Haram Product

Vanillin (4-hydroxy-3-methoxybenzaldehyde) a pleasant smelling aromatic compound occurs naturally in vanilla bean and also obtained from as by-product of pulp and paper industry by the oxidative break down of lignin. It may also be prepared by synthesis.
LIGNIN VANILLIN VANILLA BEAN VANILLIN
(vanilla bean flavor component)
C8H8O3 Molecular weight: 152.16
HALAL STATUS OF VANILLIN:

Artificial or synthetic vanillin do not contain alcohol and it is also Halal or Kosher offiicially recognised certified. It is a Halal ingredient.
Artificial or synthetic vanillin is made with all Halal ingredients and Halal process without alcohol. Lignin which used to make the artificial vanillin is plant products which is Halal by nature. Only methane is used as a solvent which is a Halal solvent.


From:http://www.ehalal.org/vanilla.html

[Ramadhan]

One other thing to keep in mind:

the use of gelatin in many processed food products. Gelatin may be made from animal, including pork. And even if it's made from beef, for those who live in non-muslim countries it could very likely mean the cows are not slaughtered in halal way.

(but I guess someone could argue that if it's in low quantity than it must not be haram).

[Futuwwa]

So please enlighten me, what is your point in mentioning that alcohol is not mentioned in any Islamic scripture (and afaik, there is only ONE Islamic scripture, and that is Al Qur'an).

Well, there's the hadiths too. The point of mentioning that alcohol isn't mentioned, but rather "wine and strong drink" was that the latter cannot be used as a basis to forbid everything with even an infinitesimal amount of alcohol in it.

By the way, since when I hounded you for everything you say?

Well, since I came here. You pounced me in the discussions about divorce and previous marriages, and publicly made conclusions about me simply based on my thoughts and opinions. That's not nice, and I'm getting a definite feeling of deja vu.

Why do you get so sensitive when I am producing my evidence from Qur'an and sunnah?

Why have you not stopped beating your wife?

This is a perfect strawmen.
did I ever say that "anything that could theoretically cause intoxication if ingested in an arbitrarily high amount would be haraam"
Intoxicants were defined by our Prophet Sayyidina Mohammed Sallallahu Alaihi Wassallum when he said in the authentic hadith that was reported by Abu Da’wwod and Al Tirmithi: whatever a lot of it intoxicates a person, little of it is forbidden.

No, you didn't use those exact words, but what you quote above expresses the same idea: That if a lot of something intoxicates, any amount is haraam. Which would imply that anything with sugar in it is haraam. Lots of sugar does intoxicate you.

[Dagless]

No, you didn't use those exact words, but what you quote above expresses the same idea: That if a lot of something intoxicates, any amount is haraam. Which would imply that anything with sugar in it is haraam. Lots of sugar does intoxicate you.

How can sugar intoxicate? (maybe if it is fermented but then it wouldn't be called sugar). Regardless, I think it is the quantity which matters and since people can, and have, got drunk from bottles of vanilla extract; it's probably better to avoid those particular types.

[Futuwwa]

Well, sugar messes with your blood sugar level. It messes up your mind if it goes way too high, doesn't it? Whether it'd actually be possible to reach that high by eating lots of sugar (before other things, like not being able to take in any more without vomiting, for example) is of course questionable, but irrelevant for the application of "If a lot of X intoxicates a person, even a little of it it haraam".

[Dagless]

Well, sugar messes with your blood sugar level. It messes up your mind if it goes way too high, doesn't it?

Your body regulates it (unless you have an illness which prevents that), so no (although just because you won't get high doesn't mean won't get fat ).

Whether it'd actually be possible to reach that high by eating lots of sugar (before other things, like not being able to take in any more without vomiting, for example) is of course questionable, but irrelevant for the application of "If a lot of X intoxicates a person, even a little of it it haraam".

It's not irrelevant. If you can never consume that amount of something without vomiting or dying from something else first then obviously it's not going to be an intoxicant.

[Muhammad]

Assalaamu Alaykum,

The best thing is to find out what the scholars have said on such issues, and avoid mentioning our personal opinions and thoughts on them.

[Starrynight]

Do you have some sources where the scholars might have said something? I'm not quiet sure where to find that stuff in English.
Thank you

[Ramadhan]

Here's an answer from a scholar:

Originally Posted by Abu Ammaar
Salam

As I said in class, food flavored with vanilla would be permissible because the quantity of alcohol present would be completely negligible.

However, the ruling on purchasing vanilla extract that has high percentages of alcohol would be different. I would say that this should be avoided and non-alchoholic equivalents found.

And Allah knows best...

Yasir

This is similar to what I've said in previous post: Going to supermarket and intentionally buying a bottle of vanilla extracts which you know contain minimum 35% of alcohol is different matter altogether than eating food containing vanilla flavor.

[Ramadhan]

From: http://amjaonline.com/en_f_details.php?fid=23043

ID

23043

Scholar

Dr. Hatem al-Haj

Date

2008-05-23

Category

Varieties

Question

Asalaam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatu,

To Dr. Salah As-Sawy:

I have been hearing mixed fatawa on the issue of alcohol in food. Some foods - such as vanilla ice cream - contain very tiny amounts of alcohol from the vanilla extract which is used. If you ate tons of this food, there would still not be enough alcohol in the food to get you drunk. Is it permissible to eat these foods?

Sh. Uthaymeen gave a fatwa which said, "If a small quantity of alcohol is so submerged in something else that is has no tangible or theoretical effect, then the substance keeps the ruling that is in accordance with its own attributes. As for the hadith that states 'Whatever intoxicates in large quantities, then a small quantity of it is forbidden', this refers to a certain beverage that intoxicates when someone drinks a lot of it, but not when he drinks a little. It is unlawful to drink a small quantity of such a beverage, because even though a small quantity cannot make a person drunk, it can lead to drinking larger quantities." [Majmoo` al-Fatawa (4/260)] Also, a fatwa allowing this can be found on islamtoday.com (http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cf...sub_cat_id=561)

Jazakum Allah khair.

Fatwa

All praise be to Allah and may His peace and blessings be on His final and greatest messenger, Muhammad.

Dear Enquirer,

It is important to know that khamr is not only alcohol and alcohol is not all khamr.

The khamr that was present during the time of the Messenger of Allah was made mainly of dates and grapes, thus the Hanafi scholars limit the use of the term “khamr” to drinks made of these two substances, but they still forbid intoxication by any drink.

The majority of scholars – and that is clearly the stronger position – consider all intoxicants to be khamr, for the Prophet (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) said,

" كل مُسْكِر خَمْر ، وكل مُسْكِرٍ حَرَام."

“Every intoxicant is khamr and every intoxicant is haraam.” [Reported by Muslim]

Thus, the majority would consider haraam any amount of a beverage that intoxicates, whether it is fermented from cooked juices or from uncooked materials like honey, wheat, barley, millet, or figs.

This is the right position based on the following hadeeth reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim,

عَنْ أَبِي مُوسَى قَالَ : بَعَثَنِي النَّبِيُّ r أَنَا وَمُعَاذَ بْنَ جَبَلٍ إِلَى الْيَمَنِ ، فَقُلْتُ : يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ، إِنَّ شَرَابًا يُصْنَعُ بِأَرْضِنَا يُقَالُ لَهُ الْمِزْرُ مِنْ الشَّعِيرِ ، وَشَرَابٌ يُقَالُ لَهُ الْبِتْعُ مِنْ الْعَسَلِ ، فَقَالَ : " كُلُّ مُسْكِرٍ حَرَامٌ ."

Abu Musa said, "The Prophet (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) sent me and Mu’adh ibn Jabal to Yemen, and I said, 'O Messenger of Allah, there is a drink that is made in our land called al-mizr, made from barley, and another drink called al-bit`, made from honey.' He (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) said, 'Every intoxicant is haraam.'"

At the time of the Prophet (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him), solid or gaseous substances which cause intoxication were unknown, but when they became first known (hashishah = cannabis) to the Muslim scholars, the most learned of them did not hesitate to include them under the terminology of khamr, so they became automatically forbidden by the textual proofs that forbid khamr, or at least they included them under the ruling of khamr by analogy (qiyas).

Imam Ibn Taymeah said,

“وأما المحققون من الفقهاء فعلموا أنها [الحشيشة] مسكرة ، وإنما يتناولها الفجار ، لما فيها من النشوة والطرب ، فهي تجامع الشراب المسكر في ذلك. والخمر توجب الحركة والخصومة ، وهذه توجب الفتور واللذة ، وفيها مع ذلك من فساد المزاج والعقل ، وفتح باب الشهوة ، وما توجبه من الدياثة مما يجعلها من شر الشراب المسكر ، وإنما حدثت في الناس بحدوث التتار. وعلى تناول القليل منها والكثير حد الشرب ، ثمانون سوطا ، أو أربعون إذا كان مسلما يعتقد تحريم المسكر "

"The verifying scholars recognized that it [hashish=cannabis] is an intoxicant, only consumed by the wicked, because of the euphoria it brings, so, it is like intoxicating drinks. Khamr causes increased energy and quarrels, whereas this causes lassitude and enjoyment, but it still has the characteristics of corrupting the mood and intoxicating the mind as well as exacerbating lustful desires and causing a lack of protectiveness over his household. All of this would make it even worse than intoxicating drinks. This [the appearance of hashish in Muslim lands] came along with the advent of the Tatars. The one who consumes a little or a lot of it deserves the punishment prescribed for drinking: eighty or forty lashes, if he is a Muslim who believes in the prohibition of intoxicants.” [Al-Fatawa al-Kubra: 3/423]

The position of giving all drugs the name of khamr is stronger and supported by the Prophet’s saying, “Every intoxicant is khamr.”

That is the first part of the issue that needed to be clarified: that khamr refers to all intoxicants.

As for alcohol, there are so many types of alcohol. The alcohol which was present in the khamr during the time of the Messenger of Allah and that is found in modern day alcoholic beverages is ethyl alcohol, or more precisely, ethanol.

The word, "alcohol," was not used during the time of the Messenger, and we need to know a little about it to dispel any confusion that may result in mistaken judgment.

Obviously (and as admitted by western academics), the word is of Arabic origin. The "al–" in "alcohol" indicates its Arabic etymology, for "al-" in Arabic is the definite article which corresponds to "the" in English.

The origin of the word, "cohol," may have to do with "kuhl," which is a fine powder mostly made of antimony and it was mainly used in cosmetics. It could also have come from "ghawl," or, "ghool," a word used in the Quran to refer to the after-effects of wine.

Alcohol is made by the processing of natural products, such as the fermentation of carbohydrates or reductive cleavage of natural fats and oils, or manufactured from petroleum hydrocarbons. So, not all alcohol is made by the fermentation of carbohydrates as was the case during the Prophet’s time.

Alcohols are derivatives of hydrocarbons in which one or more of the hydrogen atoms have been replaced by a hydroxyl (-OH) functional group. Hydrocarbons are compounds which contain hydrogen (H) and carbon (C) only. There are many types of alcohol, such as ethyl alcohol (the type present in alcoholic beverages), methanol, which is used in various products, such as anti-freeze, glycol and isopropyl alcohol, which are both toxic and intoxicant, but there are also types of alcohol, such as the completely denatured alcohols, which are not intoxicant, because alcohol simply means hydroxylated hydrocarbons. It is always safe, however, to consider all alcohols intoxicant, whether they are natural or synthetic, because the very vast majority of alcohols are.

Vanilla extract is a solution containing the flavor compound vanillin. Pure vanilla extract is made by extracting the flavor of vanilla beans in an alcoholic solution. In order for vanilla extract to be called pure, the FDA requires that the solution contain a minimum of 35% alcohol and 13.35 ounces of vanilla bean per gallon. This extract is then added in small amounts to ice cream and other food products.

The ruling depends on a few factors:

1 - First, If a large quantity of a substance intoxicates, then a small quantity of that substance is forbidden. Conversely, if the large quantity did not intoxicate, then intoxication would not be a reason for the substance to be forbidden. That is confirmed by the following hadeeth,

" ما أسْكَر كَثيرُه فقَليلُه حَرَام "

"Whatever intoxicates in large quantities, a small quantity of it is forbidden."

[Related by Abu Dawood, an-Nasaey and others authentically]

Now, does ice cream made with vanilla extract intoxicate? No one would say that. So, when does it become an intoxicant? If you extract the alcohol from that extract in the ice cream and isolate it, then it becomes an intoxicant and forbidden for consumption even if it is trivial in amount, because a large amount of the same substance would result in intoxication.

2 - Second, does mixing alcohol with food products make them impermissible or impure?

According to the stronger position (of the minority), alcohol is not physically impure. Thus, it doesn’t turn the mixture into impurity. Even, if it was impure, submersion in a large quantity of tahir (pure substance) according to the stronger position, does not affect the ruling of the pure substance unless one the characteristics of alcohol prevails (color, smell or taste).

Does mixing it with another substance change the ruling of the new substance even if it is not impure? Yes, if it makes the new substance an intoxicant.

3 - Third, would it be permissible for Muslims to add alcohol to food products? No - as in the case of turning alcohol into vinegar - that would not be permissible for Muslims, though, it would be permissible for them to consume it if it was added by others, and most certainly if it occurred naturally in a food (even bread goes through fermentation) so long as the consumed substance is not intoxicant, even in large quantities.

Based on what is said above, we believe that it is permissible to use food products which contain vanilla extract.

I hope this answer is satisfactory.

And Allah knows best.