Qur'an and Sunnah - Equal Weight?

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

I did not read the whole thread or this post. This line grabbed my attention.

NO WAY , Quran & Hadith have equal weight ........how is that possible ? Quran is from God , Hadith is from human being........pl. be careful before writing any such comment. This attitude could lead us to Shirk/blashphemy ( may Allah forbid).

The Messenger of Allaah recieved two types of revelations:

"I have recieved the Quran and something like it" [Abu Dawud]

Allah says in the Qur’ân:

We have sent down to him the Book and the Wisdom.

al-Shâfi`î said: “Allah mentions the Book, which is the Qur’ân. I have heard from people who I consider authorities on the Qur’ân that the Wisdom is the Sunnah of Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him).”

It is related from Makhûl that Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: “Allah gave me the Qur’ân and what is like it from the Wisdom.”

Al-Miqdâm b. Ma`dî Karab relates that Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: “I have been given the Book and with it something like it.”

Hisân b. `Atiyyah relates that Jibrîl (Gabriel) used to come the Prophet (peace be upon him) with the Sunnah just like he would come to him with the Qur’ân.

In the Sahihayn it is recorded:

Ibn Mas'ud (Allah be pleased with him) that a woman came to him and told him,

"You who says: May Allah's curse be on 'a woman who plucks hers or others eyebrows' and 'a woman who asks others to do it for her' and those who tattoo."

He said "Yes." She said, "I read the Book of Allah from beginning to its end. I did not find what you have said."

He told her, "If you have read it, you would have found it. As for your reading what the Messenger teaches you, take it, and what he forbids you, avoid doing it."

She said, "Certainly." He said, "I have heard the Messenger of Allah (SAW) say May Allah's Curse be on the woman who plucks hers or others eyebrows" (Bukhari and Muslim)

So it is upon us, it is Wajib for us to follow the authentic Sunnah, even though such a matter might not be mentioned in the Qur'an. Please see these:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...ection=Hadeeth
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...ection=Hadeeth

Yes , i know , to know more about Quranic commands we have to look in to Hadith .....but it does not mean that they have ' equal ' weights.

The Messenger said: “None of you should recline contentedly upon his couch when one of my commands or prohibitions reach him and say: ‘I do not know about that. I follow whatever I find in the Book of Allah’.” [Abu Dawud]

To all: is there any verse in Quran that says Songs/Music are haraam except the wedding day ?
When people of Madina welcomed the Prophet (p) by singing , Prophet (p) scolded them for doing a haraam thing ?
why Prophet (p) allowed singing on Eid day / marriage ceremonies if it's really Haraam ?

These are exceptions based on the authentic Sunnah which were outlined in the thread I linked to:

http://www.islamicboard.com/300475-post7.html

If Music is Haraam , then what about watching TV & listening to Radio.....full of ad / music/songs ? Is it haraam to watch Hajj or World cup cricket on TV ?

There have been Fatwa regarding each of these by the Ulema, you can look them up Insha'Allaah.

There are so many imp things in Islam that we ignore .......stop backbiting , do good manners , don't take bribe , dress modestly , respect parent , don't take alcohol or drug , don't be jealous to others etc ,etc.

We are violating these regularly................... is listening to Islamic songs more harmful than these acts ? Why we don't protest against these & try to make people conscious about these but waste time on condemning Islamic songs ? Pl. tell me honestly , which one is more harmful?

That's an incorrect comparison. The thing is that musical instruments have been forbidden by Allaah and His Messenger just as these others have also been forbidden, though some sins may outweigh each other, it does not contradict the fact that all of them are forbidden.

And sister, I did not say Islamic Songs, the only thing I have been posting against were 'Musical Instruments', and Nasheeds are permissible as long as they meet certain requirements. In fact, check this thread:

The Ruling on Islamic Nasheeds

Salaam/peace

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Madani

.........

I will Insha Allah try to visit the links & answer in details.

now a short reply. Haraam is that is mentioned in Quran.

To interpret the idle talks , translators include music in the bracket/explanation......that could be right or wrong or in Arabic music is mentioned ???

Now in many mosques ,i see they write/ decorate the words Allah & Muhammed (p) side by side. I found it very dangerous as in next few years many may start saying that they are equal.....may Allah forbid.


Prophet (p) warned us before his death
that ( not the exact words ) ---don't start respecting me so much that it becomes worshipping me like Jews & Christians did with their Prophets (PBUT).

So , write Prophets name side by side with Allah & claim that '' The Qur'an and the Sunnah/Hadith have EQUAL weight in matters.'' could be very dangerous ....it could be a path to Shirk. So , i think ,it's better if we avoid writing this .

It's safe to say ---- Quran comes first , then the Hadith


Hope , i explained myself clearly

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace

I will Insha Allah try to visit the links & answer in details.

now a short reply. Haraam is that is mentioned in Quran.

Haram is also that which the Messenger forbade. Refer to the narration of Ibn Masud in my last reply where he forbids a woman from tatooing.

To interpret the idle talks , translators include music in the bracket/explanation......that could be right or wrong or in Arabic music is mentioned ???

In arabic it is 'lahw alhadith' which means idle talk. But what we look to is not the translation, but how the verse was understood by the Sahaba and the Companions, and in the other thread it was shown:
http://www.islamicboard.com/697635-post56.html

Now in many mosques ,i see they write/ decorate the words Allah & Muhammed (p) side by side. I found it very dangerous as in next few years many may start saying that they are equal.....may Allah forbid.

Sister, you are confusing yourself with the laws and legislations of Islaam with matters of belief and showing belief. I agree it is wrong that they put Allaah and Muhammad together as if they are one. But this does not contradict the fact that if the Messenger forbade something, it is as if Allaah has forbidden it or if the Messenger commanded something, it is as if Allaah has commanded it. The verse used to prove this is the same verse that Ibn Masud used to explain to that woman about tatooing:

59:7 ...And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from..

Prophet (p) warned us before his death
that ( not the exact words ) ---don't start respecting me so much that it becomes worshipping me like Jews & Christians did with their Prophets (PBUT).

Yes, the hadith is:

"Do not extoll me as the Christians extolled the son of Maryam (as ); I am no more than a slave (of Allah) and so (instead), say: Allah's Slave and His Messenger." [Bukhari]

This refers to praising him extensively and exaggerating his status which the Christians did to Isa' a.s., not taking the Islamic rulings from him. If we were not to take the Shariah from him, who else are we to take it from? His job was to explain and expound on what was revealed to us:

16: 44 ...And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice, that you may explain clearly (LI TUBAYINA) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.

So , write Prophets name side by side with Allah & claim that '' The Qur'an and the Sunnah/Hadith have EQUAL weight in matters.'' could be very dangerous ....it could be a path to Shirk. So , i think ,it's better if we avoid writing this . It's safe to say ---- Quran comes first , then the Hadith

I agree that it is wrong to write the names together which can denote equality in worship or status. But when it comes to legal matters, as explained above, the Messenger only forbade something which Allaah commanded him to forbid, even though such a directive is not in the Qur'an.

"I have recieved the Quran and something like it" [Abu Dawud]

To give a practical example, the two Id's are not mentioned in the Qur'an, we know of them and celebrate them because of the Ahadith.

Salaam/peace;

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Madani

Haram is also that which the Messenger forbade. ......

where can i find the explanation of Haram ? I heard & read in few articles that what Allah forbids is Haram.

Salaam/peace ,


there are several ( almost half a dozen ) threads on music/songs in the forum; so i think , it's better not to discuss about it anymore here.

So , let me write something about the main topic---Qur'an and Sunnah - Equal Weight?



Is there any Quranic verse or Hadith that says both Quran & Hadith are equal ?



To my knowledge ( and that is not up to a very high level :blind: ) , Quran is the only one book in the world without any single errors. After Quran , it's hadith al-Qudsi .



I mentioned earlier , our some acts/ attitude could lead us to Shirk. So , as it's Allah who gave the honour to Prophet Muhammed (p) & as it's because of Allah's command , we respect Allah & His Prophet , words of Allah & His Prophet can not be equal.



If we need to say that both Quran & Hadith are equal , then we MUST mention that it's only those Hadith that have commands regarding Quran can deserve equal importance.



The other hadith those describe how the Prophet (p) walked , which foot he gave first -----left or right , on which day he went out for a journey etc , etc can not be compared with Quranic commands as those hadith are not compulsory to follow.

I have no doubt that we will get rewards if we follow the Sunnah , i m just trying to say that words of God & all hadith CAN NOT be equally important .




May be , now we won't be mislead by this attitude that both Quran & Hadith are equal , but in future , our next generantion might be misguided & could do the Shirk ( may Allah forbid ).


so , as a pre-caution & also in the real sense , we must be very , very , very careful to say /write anything like this.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

[color="blue"]

Salaam/peace ,


there are several ( almost half a dozen ) threads on music/songs in the forum; so i think , it's better not to discuss about it anymore here.

i agree!

So , let me write something about the main topic---Qur'an and Sunnah - Equal Weight?



Is there any Quranic verse or Hadith that says both Quran & Hadith are equal ?

how could there be? the hadith weren't recorded until after the qur'an.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace ,

Is there any Quranic verse or Hadith that says both Quran & Hadith are equal ?

Before I start a reply, I want to warn you that this is, in essence, the exact same arguement that the Hadith rejectors use, except that they say, "Where does the Qur'an say to follow Hadith?". So before you even read what is to follow, please ask yourself what your intention in reading this is.

Now, there are many verses that indicate this. I'll mention some here for you:

59:7 ...And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from..

4: 65. But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.

24: 63 ...And let those who oppose the Messenger's commandment beware, lest some Fitnah befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.

3: 31. Say: "If you (really) love Allah then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

32. Say: "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers.

And the verses such as the last are many scattered throughout the Qur'an.

To my knowledge ( and that is not up to a very high level) , Quran is the only one book in the world without any single errors. After Quran , it's hadith al-Qudsi .

Sister, there is no doubt that the Qur'an is the most authentic book, but tell me how was it preserved? The preservation of the Qur'an is via men who memorized it. The Qur'an was recorded by men. It was human beings who memorized and recorded the Qur'an just as it was human beings who memorized and recorded the Ahadith. It is through human beings that Allaah's Book is conveyed from one to another. But it is due to the divine help of Allaah that human beings accomplished either. Why do you accept the Qur'an and cast doubt on the Ahadith when they have both been preserved by the same people? It is Allaah who enabled us to do both tasks.

One person on their own can make an error. But the same error cannot be missed by over a millenium of hadith scholars who re-examined the work. For each hadith you can find the research of hadith scholars on it, the verdicts they gave on it and their conclusions about the people in the chains of narration.

I mentioned earlier , our some acts/ attitude could lead us to Shirk. So , as it's Allah who gave the honour to Prophet Muhammed (p) & as it's because of Allah's command , we respect Allah & His Prophet , words of Allah & His Prophet can not be equal.

Sister, do I need to quote the Hadith again? The Qur'an is NOT the only revelation the Messenger got.

53:3 Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

53: 4. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired.

"I have recieved the Quran and something like it" [Abu Dawud]

You will find that when Allaah mentions the Qur'an, he mentions the Hikmah. What is the Hikmah? It is the Sunnah of the Messenger.

Everything that he told us regarding the religion was from Allah and MOST of the details and rulings of the religion are in the Ahadith which NECCISITATES that they be preserved, few being in the Quran and those being general.

This doubt is actually cleared in Ma'âriful-Qur'ân, which is as follows:

The Holy Prophet's Words are a Revelation from Allah

وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَى إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَى

{And he does not speak of [his own] desire. It is not but revelation revealed to [to him]...53:3-4}

The verses tell us that it is absolutely impossible for the Messenger [saws] to forge lies and impute them to Allah. Nothing he utters is of his own wish or desire. He only conveys to the people what he was commanded to convey in its entirety, without additions or deletions. An analysis of the various Traditions in Bukhârî indicates that there are many categories or types of wahy [inspiration or revelation]. Type one is that in which the wordings and the meaning are both directly from Allah. This is called Qur'ân. Type two is the one in which only the meaning comes from Allah, and the Messenger [saws] expresses the meaning in his own words. This is called Hadîth or Sunnah [Tradition]. The subject of Hadîth, which comes from Allah, sometimes lays does injunctions or rules of conduct in clear and express terms, and at other times it establishes a general principle from which the Messenger [saws] derives laws on the basis of ijtihâd or analogy, and promulgates them. In this there does exist the possibility of mistake of judgement. But it is the characteristic of the Messenger [saws] and other Prophets [as] that if they commit any error of judgement, Allah sends down a revelation to amend it, so that they do not unwittingly persist in their mistaken ijtihâd. Unlike other scholars of ijtihâd, who can persist in their erroneous conclusions. However, their error is not only forgiven, but they also recieve one reward for exerting their utmost effort in comprehending the rule of religion to the fullest extent, as authentic and well-known Traditions bear testimony to this fact.

The foregoing discussion also allays the following doubt: It seems according to the above verses, that the Messenger [saws] does not speak of his own desire, but whatever he conveys to the people is a revelation from Allah. It follows from this that he does not exercise independent reasoning in any matter whatsoever, whereas authentic Traditions show otherwise. There are incidents recorded that at the beginning, he promulgated one law, but later on, revelation descended and the law was changed. This is an indication that the earlier law was not the law of Allah, but it was based on his ijtihâd. The foregoing paragraph already responded to this objection: the second type of revelation establishes a general principle of law from which the Messenger [saws] derives laws on the basis of ijtihâd, and promulgates them. Because the general principle has descended from Allah, all the laws are said to be the revelation from Allah. Allah knows best!

(Shafy, vol. 8, pp. 202-203)

If we need to say that both Quran & Hadith are equal , then we MUST mention that it's only those Hadith that have commands regarding Quran can deserve equal importance.

How can that be? Either you accept all the hadith or you reject all, there is no picking and choosing. If you don't understand a Hadith, ask those that do, ask the Scholars instead of maing a judgement on your own that you won't accept it or that you won't hold it with the Qur'an. Let me define Sunnah for you.

The Sunnah, according to the scholars of hadîth, is everything that has been related from the Messenger (peace be upon him) of his statements, actions, tacit approvals, personality, physical description, or biography. It does not matter whether the information being related refers to something before the beginning of his prophetic mission, or after it.

The other hadith those describe how the Prophet (p) walked , which foot he gave first -----left or right , on which day he went out for a journey etc , etc can not be compared with Quranic commands as those hadith are not compulsory to follow.

Sister, I do not think you are familiar with Usul ul Fiqh. Proofs are derived in many ways. For example, as you said, the Messenger went someplace and did something. It isn't directly related to the Qur'an, but from it can be derived many rulings on matters. You see, the fallacy of this arguement is the same fallacy that the hadith rejectors fall into. They believe that the Messenger's job was only to convey and not explain to mankind what the Qur'an is. Allaah says:

16: 44 ...And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice, that you may explain clearly (TUBAYINA) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.

This verse clearly establishes that there is not only a revelation sent down (the Qur'an) but there are also the explanations of the Prophet that accompany it. These explanations have been preserved as our ahadith. This is the divine wisdom behind sending a Prophet so that human beings will see someone like them implementing and explaining the revelation from God. Thus, if one were to say the Qur'an is of a higher level then the Messenger's explanations in this sense, then one might as well disregard in totality the Messenger's explanations.

However, to clarify, what is being said is not regarding barakah. There is no doubt that there is more reward for reciting an ayah of Qur'an then reading a Hadith. What is being explained here is regarding Fiqh matters and rulings where the Qur'an and the Commands/Explanations of the Messenger hold equal weight.

I have no doubt that we will get rewards if we follow the Sunnah , i m just trying to say that words of God & allhadith CAN NOT be equally important .

Lets see again, the Sahaba's understanding of the Qur'an:

Once ‘Abdullah ibn Mas`ud quoted this saying of the Prophet while he was delivering a sermon: “May God curse the women who tattoo their bodies and those who pluck their eyebrows; those who separate their teeth to make them look more pretty and those who try to change the creation of God.”
A woman named Umm Ya`qub from the tribe of Banu Asad came to know of these words. She approached Ibn Mas`ud and said, “O Abu ‘Abdur-Rahman! It was reported to me that you have cursed such and such women.”
He said, “Why should I not curse those whom the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) cursed and who are cursed in the Book of God as well?”
She said, “I read the Book of Allah from beginning to its end. I did not find what you have said.”

He replied, “Had you been a good reader, you would have discovered it. Did you not read the following verse? [So take whatever the Messenger gives you and keep away from what he forbids you](Al-Hashr 59:7).” [Bukhari and Muslim]

May be , now we won't be mislead by this attitude that both Quran & Hadith are equal , but in future , our next generantion might be misguided & could do the Shirk ( may Allah forbid ).

To follow the Messenger in everything is shirk now? The fallacy of your arguement here is that you are confusing aqidah with fiqh. I have explained above what the Hadith are and what they are used for. They contain the explanations of the Messenger of Allaah of the Qur'an, and therein are rulings on specifics whilst the generals are in the Qur'an and it has been established that both are a type of Wahi from Allaah. The rulings do not just have to be the Messenger's direct speech, it can be in his actions, silent approvals/disapprovals and personality, incidents etc.

format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs

how could there be? the hadith weren't recorded until after the qur'an.

Myth: http://www.islamicboard.com/212874-post5.html

Salaam/peace ,

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Madani

.... I want to warn you that this is, in essence, the exact same arguement that the Hadith rejectors use..

---I m not a Hadith rejector but I just don't believe that Quran & hadith can be equal.

I want to put the direct words of Allah before Hadith......it's not that i don't respect the Last Prophet (p) but i do believe in my heart that Quran comes first , then Hadith.

please ask yourself what your intention in reading this is.

---i m quite shocked that u r so serious about this concept ( to be specific , i did not know that some or many Muslims believe ) that Quran & Hadith are equal .

I m curious to know how many scholars agree with this view ? I m also sad that Muslims argue with each-other about so many things No wonder , Muslims are divided in to so many sects/groups.

32. Say: "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers.

-----I don't think , listening to Islamic songs makes any Muslim a disbeliever.

Sister, there is no doubt that the Qur'an is the most authentic book

---if Quran is the MOST authentic book , then how other books can be equal to Quran , specially some Hadith those are considered as weak?

Why do you accept the Qur'an and cast doubt on the Ahadith when they have both been preserved by the same people? It is Allaah who enabled us to do both tasks.

--In Quran , Allah promised to preserve Quran from corruption but not the Hadith.

Sister, do I need to quote the Hadith again? The Qur'an is NOT the only revelation the Messenger got.[INDENT] 53:3 Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

---- may be , it's the hadith al-Qudsi & not all the hadith specially those are weak ?

وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَى إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَى

{And he does not speak of [his own] desire. It is not but revelation revealed to [to him]...53:3-4}


---- could it be meant verses of Quran .....what the Prophet heard from the Angel Jibril (ra) , he revealed to us ?

To follow the Messenger in everything is shirk now?

---- I NEVER said this.....u misunderstood me.

Prophet (p) loved honey , it does not mean that it's a MUST for us to take honey daily. Of Course , there must be many good things in taking honey but it is not a must. Prophet (p) used to start journey ..... i forgot .......on Monday ??? It's allowed for us to do the journey on any day.....i meant these things.


If anybody starts thinking that what Prophet (p) did in day to day life is compulsory for us because his words have same weight like Quranic commands , then in future Muslims may start thinking that Allah & Prophet are same -- 2 in 1 .......the mistake Christians did about Jesus (p) .

So , we Muslims must learn from that mistake & must not think words of God & words of Prophet have equal weights .


May be , u r a very learned & conscious person & u won't commit shirk but others may do the sin.

al madani,
thanks for the link. i will check it out when i have time.
this is an interesting discussion.

SubhanAllah,

As Salam Aleykum Wa Rhametullah,

May Allah have mercy on us and bestow knowledge of His deen on us and make us of those sincere. Ameen.

With regards to the Topic.

Sister, just wanted to say, it seems this is kind of changing bit by bit, we have to be careful with words here.

Hadith and Sunnah are not the same all the time. The Qu'ran and the Sunnah have the same LEGAL weight obviously not the same Blessing for reading them.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

[COLOR=Blue]NO WAY , Quran & Hadith have equal weight ........how is that possible ? Quran is from God , Hadith is from human being........pl. be careful before writing any such comment. This attitude could lead us to Shirk/blashphemy ( may Allah forbid).

I just wanted to ask a couple of questions sister on this statement;

1. Hadith, I guess meaning Sunnah, now, Did the Prophet Muhammad add or take away anything from Allah's message?

2. When the Prophet spoke, did he speak of his own desires or was he rather set to convey the Message of Allah?

I think it is clear, when we understand the source of the Sunnah, that we see that the source of the Qu'ran is the source of the Sunnah. Muhammad peace be upon him, was a Messenger, his Message was the Deen of God, and this included the Qu'ran, the actual Word for Word word of God, and the Sunnah, which was not word for word the Word of God.

Saying God did not give Muhammad the Sunnah, i.e. that Muhammad chose himself how to pray, or that Muhammad chose himself how to fast and the rulings is saying Muhammad made his religion. That'd be closer to shirk in my eyes.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Now in many mosques ,i see they write/ decorate the words Allah & Muhammed (p) side by side. I found it very dangerous as in next few years many may start saying that they are equal.....may Allah forbid.


Prophet (p) warned us before his death
that ( not the exact words ) ---don't start respecting me so much that it becomes worshipping me like Jews & Christians did with their Prophets (PBUT).

So , write Prophets name side by side with Allah & claim that '' The Qur'an and the Sunnah/Hadith have EQUAL weight in matters.'' could be very dangerous ....it could be a path to Shirk. So , i think ,it's better if we avoid writing this .

It's safe to say ---- Quran comes first , then the Hadith

Did Allah commit Shirk? AuthoBillah.

Allah mentions many a time, 'Whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger' and so forth. When the Sahaba we asked questions and they answered Allah and His Messenger know best was that shirk? No, but when someone said If Allah wills and You will, then that is wrong as shown in the Sunnah, or to say that the Messenger knows the Unseen by himself is not right, he only knows what Allah has revealed to him.

But sister, to say Qu'ran first and then Sunnah is like saying one is from a better source than the other.

Could the Prophet contradict the Qu'ran? No, because he himself was guided, his Sunnah is guidance.

EDIT: To Emphasise again, we are talking about the Sunnah not the Hadith, Hadith can be weak or strong or whatever we are talking about the Sunnah which is what is certain to be from the Messenger.

The Sunnah is the second source of Islamic jurisprudence, the first being the Qur'an. Both sources are indispensable; one cannot practice Islam without consulting both of them.

Linguistically, Sunnah is an Arabic word which means a path or a way. However, Islaamically, it is a primary source of law taken from the sayings, actions and approvals of the Prophet Muhammad. As Muslims we believe that the law Prophet Muhammad sallalahu aleyhi wasalaam came with, is a divine revelation from our Creator, Allaah. However many people believe that the Qur'aan is the only form of divine revelation, as it is the literal word of Allaah. This view is incorrect as it contradicts the Qur'aan itself. About the Prophet Muhammad, Allaah says: “Your companion (Muhammad) is neither astray nor being misled. Nor does he speak of his own desire. It is (only) the revelation with which he is inspired” (Surah An-Najm 53:2-4). Thus as Muslims, we are required to believe that the Qur'aan and Sunnah go hand in hand together as our sources of legislated law. Both are revelation from Allaah, the most High. The Qur'aan is composed of the actual words of Allaah, whereas the Sunnah is expressed through the words, actions and approvals of the Prophet Muhammad. Another difference is that the Qur'aan is recited formally in the prayers whereas the Sunnah is not.

As a way of life, Islaam is perfect and complete. However, such are the times that we live in, that some of the liberal elite from the Muslims choose to deny aspects of Islaam to suit their own desires. It is even more sad, that many choose to deny the Sunnah in particular. However this is clearly wrong, as the saying of the Prophet indicates: “I have been given the Qur'aan and something similar to it besides it. Yet a time will come when a man leaning on his couch will say ‘follow the Qur'aan only; what you find in it permissible, take as permissible, and what you find as forbidden, take as forbidden’. But verily what the Messenger of Allaah has forbidden is like what Allaah has forbidden”[Authentic - Reported by Ahmad and Abu Dawood.]. The words of the Arabian Prophet ring truthfully in our ears again.

Allah has said "“We have revealed the reminder (Qur'aan) to you (O’ Muhammad) in order that you explain to the people what has been revealed to them, that perhaps they may reflect” (Surah An-Nahl 16:44).

Qur'aan through his words and actions, the Prophet through his Sunnah, gives us the best example of how this book is to be understood and practiced. This is why Allaah says: “Indeed in the Messenger of Allaah you have the most beautiful pattern of conduct” (Surah Al-Ahzab 33:21).


The obligation is stressed even more when Allaah says: “But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you (O’ Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept them with full submission” (Sura An-Nisa 4:65) and :

“It is not fitting for a believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decreed by Allaah and His Messenger to have any choice in the matter. If anyone disobeys Allaah and His Messenger he is clearly astray” (Surah Al-Ahzab 33:36).

subhanalah, may Allah guide us all ameen.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Hadith and Sunnah are not the same all the time. The Qu'ran and the Sunnah have the same LEGAL weight obviously not the same Blessing for reading them.



I just wanted to ask a couple of questions sister on this statement;

1. Hadith, I guess meaning Sunnah, now, Did the Prophet Muhammad add or take away anything from Allah's message?

2. When the Prophet spoke, did he speak of his own desires or was he rather set to convey the Message of Allah?

I think it is clear, when we understand the source of the Sunnah, that we see that the source of the Qu'ran is the source of the Sunnah. Muhammad peace be upon him, was a Messenger, his Message was the Deen of God, and this included the Qu'ran, the actual Word for Word word of God, and the Sunnah, which was not word for word the Word of God.

Saying God did not give Muhammad the Sunnah, i.e. that Muhammad chose himself how to pray, or that Muhammad chose himself how to fast and the rulings is saying Muhammad made his religion. That'd be closer to shirk in my eyes.



Did Allah commit Shirk? AuthoBillah.

Allah mentions many a time, 'Whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger' and so forth. When the Sahaba we asked questions and they answered Allah and His Messenger know best was that shirk? No, but when someone said If Allah wills and You will, then that is wrong as shown in the Sunnah, or to say that the Messenger knows the Unseen by himself is not right, he only knows what Allah has revealed to him.

But sister, to say Qu'ran first and then Sunnah is like saying one is from a better source than the other.

Could the Prophet contradict the Qu'ran? No, because he himself was guided, his Sunnah is guidance.

EDIT: To Emphasise again, we are talking about the Sunnah not the Hadith, Hadith can be weak or strong or whatever we are talking about the Sunnah which is what is certain to be from the Messenger.

obviously my understanding is quite limited. i find the terms sunnah and hadith confusing because some say they are identical and some make the distinction that you have made above. if this distinction is valid, then would it be fair to say that qur'an and sunnah are of equal weight? which would not be quite the same as saying qur'an and hadith are equal weight....

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace ,

I want to put the direct words of Allah before Hadith......it's not that i don't respect the Last Prophet (p) but i do believe in my heart that Quran comes first , then Hadith.

As explained before, the Hadith are also a revelation from Allaah.

The male thief and female theif cutt of their hands (5:38)

Does this apply to children? Does this apply to the insane? Does this apply to those who steal things that are of minimal value like a grain of salt?

Sister, how will you know this if you do not turn to the Hadith as a source of law as well? If we were to say that the Hadith are second, then we might as well cut off the hand of any thief be he a child or an insane person.

This is not a competition between the Qur'an and the Hadith, but the reality of the matter is that to understand the Qur'an one must turn to the Hadith. We take the Qur'an by the understanding of the Messenger and the only way we know the Messenger's understanding is via the Hadith.

---i m quite shocked that u r so serious about this concept ( to be specific , i did not know that some or many Muslims believe ) that Quran & Hadith are equal .

Sister, the equality of the Qur'an and the Hadith as a source of law is established in Usul ul Fiqh.

I m curious to know how many scholars agree with this view ? I m also sad that Muslims argue with each-other about so many things No wonder , Muslims are divided in to so many sects/groups.

Sister, if you go study Usul ul Fiqh you'll find that this is the majority view. This is because we are speaking of equal weight in LEGAL matters.

There is no doubt that there is more reward in just reciting the Qur'an. What we are trying to explain to you is in regards to rulings.

-----I don't think , listening to Islamic songs makes any Muslim a disbeliever.

Sister, that is not the point. The point is the first part of the verse. Obey Allaah and the Messenger and the fact that Allaah says:

33:36 It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.

---if Quran is the MOST authentic book , then how other books can be equal to Quran , specially some Hadith those are considered as weak?

Sister, you are confusing between individual hadiths and books that contain only authentic hadith. Hadith classification is a rigoruous procedure and the hadith is dealt with in many angles. This is a whole science in and of itself called Mustalah Al Hadith.

The point here is that when a book such as Sahih Al Bukhari or Sahih Al Muslim contains ONLY authentic hadith, that book is extremely authentic having gone through over a millenium of hadith scholars who would have found any error if one was made. I advice you to listen to some lectures on hadith sciences, I can refer you to some if you want.

--In Quran , Allah promised to preserve Quran from corruption but not the Hadith.

Allaah said "Dhikr".

15: 9: Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the DHIKR and surely, We will guard it.

Dhikr refers to everything that was sent down, the Qur'an and Hikmah.

http://www.islamicboard.com/525614-post153.html

---- may be , it's the hadith al-Qudsi & not all the hadith specially those are weak ?

It does not matter what the text of the hadith is, each is rigorously put through the verification process and only those hadith which reach the level of 'Sahih - Authentic' or 'Hasan - Good' are taken. Any lower then that are not.

وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَى إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَى

{And he does not speak of [his own] desire. It is not but revelation revealed to [to him]...53:3-4}


---- could it be meant verses of Quran .....what the Prophet heard from the Angel Jibril (ra) , he revealed to us ?

Sister, did you even read the Hadith and the quote from Ma'âriful-Qur'ân?

The verses tell us that it is absolutely impossible for the Messenger [saws] to forge lies and impute them to Allah. Nothing he utters is of his own wish or desire. He only conveys to the people what he was commanded to convey in its entirety, without additions or deletions. An analysis of the various Traditions in Bukhârî indicates that there are many categories or types of wahy [inspiration or revelation]. Type one is that in which the wordings and the meaning are both directly from Allah. This is called Qur'ân. Type two is the one in which only the meaning comes from Allah, and the Messenger [saws] expresses the meaning in his own words. This is called Hadîth or Sunnah [Tradition]. The subject of Hadîth, which comes from Allah, sometimes lays does injunctions or rules of conduct in clear and express terms, and at other times it establishes a general principle from which the Messenger [saws] derives laws on the basis of ijtihâd or analogy, and promulgates them. In this there does exist the possibility of mistake of judgement. But it is the characteristic of the Messenger [saws] and other Prophets [as] that if they commit any error of judgement, Allah sends down a revelation to amend it, so that they do not unwittingly persist in their mistaken ijtihâd. Unlike other scholars of ijtihâd, who can persist in their erroneous conclusions. However, their error is not only forgiven, but they also recieve one reward for exerting their utmost effort in comprehending the rule of religion to the fullest extent, as authentic and well-known Traditions bear testimony to this fact.

The foregoing discussion also allays the following doubt: It seems according to the above verses, that the Messenger [saws] does not speak of his own desire, but whatever he conveys to the people is a revelation from Allah. It follows from this that he does not exercise independent reasoning in any matter whatsoever, whereas authentic Traditions show otherwise. There are incidents recorded that at the beginning, he promulgated one law, but later on, revelation descended and the law was changed. This is an indication that the earlier law was not the law of Allah, but it was based on his ijtihâd. The foregoing paragraph already responded to this objection: the second type of revelation establishes a general principle of law from which the Messenger [saws] derives laws on the basis of ijtihâd, and promulgates them. Because the general principle has descended from Allah, all the laws are said to be the revelation from Allah. Allah knows best!
(Shafy, vol. 8, pp. 202-203)

Please read the parts in bold.

---- I NEVER said this.....u misunderstood me.

Sister, as Br. Al Habeshi explained:

When the Sahaba we asked questions and they answered Allah and His Messenger know best was that shirk? No, but when someone said If Allah wills and You will, then that is wrong as shown in the Sunnah, or to say that the Messenger knows the Unseen by himself is not right, he only knows what Allah has revealed to him.

We are speaking strictly from a legal point of view.

If anybody starts thinking that what Prophet (p) did in day to day life is compulsory for us because his words have same weight like Quranic commands , then in future Muslims may start thinking that Allah & Prophet are same -- 2 in 1 .......the mistake Christians did about Jesus (p) .

Again you are confusing between legal matters and matters of belief. Can you answer why, if taking the Messenger's command on legal matters was close to shirk, why then would the Sahaba be trying their best to imitate him?

So , we Muslims must learn from that mistake & must not think words of God & words of Prophet have equal weights .

There are two types of Wahi as explained before. The Qur'an is divinely revealed in both meaning and words while the Ahadith are only divinely revealed in meaning and the words are those of Prophet.

May be , u r a very learned & conscious person & u won't commit shirk but others may do the sin.

It's not about commiting shirk here. We are not saying that the Messenger is equal in status to Allaah, we are not saying this. But what we are trying to explain to you is that the Hadith are also a type of revelation which the Messenger got from Allaah.


Hi Snakelegs,

I just came across a post by Ansar where he replied to your question before:

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Hi Snakelegs,

format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs

thanks for your reply. yes, there is much i don't know and i probably am guilty of making assumptions. the qur'an is the word of god and the hadiths are writings by the companions of the prophet. how can they be of equal weight?

I don't know how much of this thread you've read/understood but it should have been clear why your above comment is wrong. The Ahadith constitute the documentation of the Sunnah, which we can describe as the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. BOTH the Qur'an and Sunnah are revelation from God. The Qur'an is divinely revealed in both meaning and words while the Ahadith are only divinely revealed in meaning and the words are those of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. We understand the Qur'an in light of the Ahadith, we don't see it as a competition between the two sources as to which is weightier because that whole mentality is flawed. They are taken together not in opposition to one another. When we follow the Qur'an, we follow it in accordance with the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Can you understand from this perspective why it is absurd to pit the two against eachother and ask which would win?

http://www.islamicboard.com/544984-post222.html

format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs

obviously my understanding is quite limited.

As all humans, for we were brought out of the wombs of our mothers in a state of not much knowledge.

format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs

i find the terms sunnah and hadith confusing because some say they are identical and some make the distinction that you have made above. if this distinction is valid, then would it be fair to say that qur'an and sunnah are of equal weight? which would not be quite the same as saying qur'an and hadith are equal weight....

Yes, you see, a 'hadith' well, this can go into more detail I think but for english speakers its best not to.

But lets say a hadith, a hadith can contradict Qu'ran, this would mean the hadith is not true. Of course not all hadith that contradict the Qu'ran in the way we understand them render them false, rather sometimes there is understanding which is not so apparent.
Anyhow, a hadith can contradict Qu'ran, if it does then we know that this hadith is not true. But the Sunnah, which is found in authentic hadith, cannot contradict Qu'ran, because the Sunnah is the way of Muhammad, which of itself is a way which is guided.

Let me break it down. Let's say we have on tape a statement from me, and I say:

I am male

This statement is true, it cannot be false, like noone can have falsified it because its on tape in my voice, similar as the Qu'ran.

Then we have a written statement attributed to me saying:

I am female

So this statement which is written and could be false or true, contradicts the statement which is without doubt true, so we say this statement is false and this 'hadith' is not true.

Lets say then we have another statement attributed to me saying:

I am a brother

Then this statement does not contradict the statement on the tape which we know is undoubtly true, so we know that this is true (of course hadith are checked with more vigourasly) so this hadith, this statement which is given to me, is a hadith and because it is true it is part of my sunnah.

[QUOTE=Al Madani;703407]

Hi Snakelegs,

I just came across a post by Ansar where he replied to your question before:

http://www.islamicboard.com/544984-post222.html

yes, i do remember and i realize that there isn't a competition between the qur'an and the hadiths. where i get confused (i started a thread on this a while back) is that some, say that the sunnah and the hadiths are the same and yet to me they don't seem to be identical. my understanding is that the hadiths are sayings and teachings of the prophet and the sunnah is the path/practice established by the messenger which was known and passed on by the community as a whole.
in any case, i do understand that the hadiths are indispensible in understanding islam. (see - i have learned a few things!). what puzzles me is when the hadith prescribe the death penalty for a certain offense and it is not in the qur'an. to me it seems like really important stuff like this would be in the qur'an and that to kill somebody on the basis on a hadith would be wrong. (which actually was a subject of another thread). as you can see, i have opinions about almost everything! but this is what makes it interesting and how i learn. just some things (whether they are "right" or "wrong") just don't seem to make sense to me.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

As all humans, for we were brought out of the wombs of our mothers in a state of not much knowledge.



Yes, you see, a 'hadith' well, this can go into more detail I think but for english speakers its best not to.

But lets say a hadith, a hadith can contradict Qu'ran, this would mean the hadith is not true. Of course not all hadith that contradict the Qu'ran in the way we understand them render them false, rather sometimes there is understanding which is not so apparent.
Anyhow, a hadith can contradict Qu'ran, if it does then we know that this hadith is not true. But the Sunnah, which is found in authentic hadith, cannot contradict Qu'ran, because the Sunnah is the way of Muhammad, which of itself is a way which is guided.

Let me break it down. Let's say we have on tape a statement from me, and I say:

I am male

This statement is true, it cannot be false, like noone can have falsified it because its on tape in my voice, similar as the Qu'ran.

Then we have a written statement attributed to me saying:

I am female

So this statement which is written and could be false or true, contradicts the statement which is without doubt true, so we say this statement is false and this 'hadith' is not true.

Lets say then we have another statement attributed to me saying:

I am a brother

Then this statement does not contradict the statement on the tape which we know is undoubtly true, so we know that this is true (of course hadith are checked with more vigourasly) so this hadith, this statement which is given to me, is a hadith and because it is true it is part of my sunnah.

isa - you have done a good job here of explaining. thankyou.

format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs

isa - you have done a good job here of explaining. thankyou.

You sure? I just read that back and I'm not confused lol. Alhamdulillah anyhow.

recommended book :

Status of Sunnah in Islam by sheikh Nasir Eldin Alalbany (may Allah have mercy on him)PDF file

Salaam/peace;

format_quote Originally Posted by hemoo

recommended book :

Status of Sunnah in Islam by sheikh Nasir Eldin Alalbany (may Allah have mercy on him)PDF file

----link is not opening


uhhhhh, it's open now after 3rd attempt