Oneness of God
by Aisha Brown
The three monotheistic religions-- Judaism, Christianity, and Islam-- all purport to share one fundamental concept: belief in God as the Supreme Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Known as "tawhid" in Islam, this concept of the Oneness of God was stressed by Moses in a Biblical passage known as the "Shema", or the Jewish creed of faith: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4)
It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus when he said "...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)
Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same message again: "And your God is One God: there is no God but He, ..." (The Qur'an 2:163).
Christianity has digressed from the concept of the Oneness of God, however, into a vague and mysterious doctrine that was formulated during the fourth century. This doctrine, which continues to be a source of controversy both within and without the Christian religion, is known as the Doctrine of the Trinity. Simply put, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity states that God is the union of three divine persons-- the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit-- in one divine being.
If that concept, put in basic terms, sounds confusing, the flowery language in the actual text of the doctrine lends even more mystery to the matter:
"...we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity...for there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost is all one...they are not three gods, but one God...the whole three persons are co-eternal and co-equal...he therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity..." (excerpts from the Athanasian Creed).
Let's put this together in a different form: one person, God the Father + one person, God the Son, + one person, God the Holy Ghost = one person, God the What? Is this English or is this gibberish?
It is said that Athanasius, the bishop who formulated this doctrine, confessed that the more he wrote on the matter, the less capable he was of clearly expressing his thoughts regarding it.
How did such a confusing doctrine get its start?*
Trinity in the Bible
References in the Bible to a Trinity of divine beings are vague, at best.
In Matthew 28:19, we find Jesus telling his disciples to go out and preach to all nations. While this "Great Commission" does make mention of the three persons who later become components of the Trinity, the phrase "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" is quite clearly an addition to Biblical text--that is, not the actual words of Jesus-- as can be seen by two factors:
1) baptism in the early Church, as discussed by Paul in his letters, was done only in the name of Jesus; and
2) the "Great Commission" was found in the first gospel written, that of Mark, bears no mention of Father, Son and/or Holy Ghost--see Mark 16:15.
The only other reference in the Bible to a Trinity can be found in the Epistle of I John 5:7. Biblical scholars of today, however, have admitted that the phrase "... there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is definitely a "later addition" to Biblical text, and it is not found in any of today's versions of the Bible.
It can, therefore, be seen that the concept of a Trinity of divine beings was not an idea put forth by Jesus or any other prophet of God. This doctrine, now subscribed to by Christians all over the world, is entirely man-made in origin.
The Doctrine Takes Shape
While Paul of Tarsus, the man who could rightfully be considered the true founder of Christianity, did formulate many of its doctrines, that of the Trinity was not among them. He did, however, lay the groundwork for such when he put forth the idea of Jesus being a "divine Son". After all, a Son does need a Father, and what about a vehicle for God's revelations to man? In essence, Paul named the principal players, but it was the later Church people who put the matter together.
Tertullian, a lawyer and presbyter of the third-century Church in Carthage, was the first to use the word "Trinity" when he put forth the theory that the Son and the Spirit participate in the being of God, but all are of one being of substance with the Father.
A Formal Doctrine Is Drawn Up
When controversy over the matter of the Trinity blew up in 318 between two church men from Alexandria--Arius, the deacon, and Alexander, his bishop-- Emperor Constantine stepped into the fray.
Although Christian dogma was a complete mystery to him, he did realize that a unified church was necessary for a strong kingdom. When negotiation failed to settle the dispute, Constantine called for the first ecumenical council in Church history in order to settle the matter once and for all.
Six weeks after the 300 bishops first gathered at Nicea in 325, the doctrine of the Trinity was hammered out. The God of the Christians was now seen as having three essences, or natures, in the form of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The Church Puts Its Foot Down
The matter was far from settled, however, despite high hopes for such on the part of Constantine. Arius and the new bishop of Alexandria, a man named Athanasius, began arguing over the matter even as the Nicene Creed was being signed; "Arianism" became a catch-word from that time onward for anyone who didn't hold to the doctrine of the Trinity.
It wasn't until 451, at the Council of Chalcedon that, with the approval of the Pope, the Nicene/ Constantinople Creed was set as authoritative. Debate on the matter was no longer tolerated; to speak out against the Trinity was now considered blasphemy, and such earned stiff sentences that ranged from mutilation to death. Christians now turned on Christians, maiming and slaughtering thousands because of a difference of opinion.
Debate Continues
Brutal punishments and even death did not stop the controversy over the doctrine of the Trinity, however, and the said controversy continues even today.
The majority of Christians, when asked to explain this fundamental doctrine of their faith, can offer nothing more than "I believe it because I was told to do so." It is explained away as "mystery" -- yet the Bible says in I Corinthians 14:33 that "... God is not the author of confusion ..."
The Unitarian denomination of Christianity has kept alive the teachings of Arius in saying that God is one; they do not believe in the Trinity. As a result, mainstream Christians abhor them, and the National Council of Churches has refused their admittance. In Unitarianism, the hope is kept alive that Christians will someday return to the preachings of Jesus: "... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." (Luke 4:8)
Islam and the Matter of the Trinity
While Christianity may have a problem defining the essence of God, such is not the case in Islam.
"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God" (Qur'an 5:73). It is worth noting that the Arabic language Bible uses the name "Allah" as the name of God.
Suzanne Haneef, in her book What Everyone Should Know About Islam and Muslims (Library of Islam, 1985), puts the matter quite succinctly when she says "But God is not like a pie or an apple which can be divided into three thirds which form one whole; if God is three persons or possesses three parts, He is assuredly not the Single, Unique, Indivisible Being which God is and which Christianity professes to believe in." (pp. 183-184)
Looking at it from another angle, the Trinity designates God as being three separate entities -- the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If God is the Father and also the Son, He would then be the Father of Himself because He is His own Son. This is not exactly logical.
Christianity claims to be a monotheistic religion. Monotheism, however, has as its fundamental belief that God is One; the Christian doctrine of the Trinity -- God being Three-in-One-- is seen by Islam as a form of polytheism. Christians don't revere just One God, they revere three.
This is a charge not taken lightly by Christians, however. They, in turn, accuse the Muslims of not even knowing what the Trinity is, pointing out that the Qur'an sets it up as Allah the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary his mother. While veneration of Mary has been a figment of the Catholic Church since 431 when she was given the title "Mother of God" by the Council of Ephesus, a closer examination of the verses in the Qur'an most often cited by Christians in support of their accusation, shows that the designation of Mary by the Qur'an as a "member" of the Trinity, is simply not true.
While the Qur'an does condemn both trinitarianism (the Qur'an 4:171; 5:73) and the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Qur'an 5:116), nowhere does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity. The position of the Qur'an is that WHO or WHAT comprises this doctrine is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity is an affront against the concept of One God.
In conclusion, we see that the doctrine of the Trinity is a concept conceived entirely by man; there is no sanction whatsoever from God to be found regarding the matter simply because the whole idea of a Trinity of divine beings has no place in monotheism. In the Qur'an, God's Final Revelation to mankind, we find His stand quite clearly stated in a number of eloquent passages,
"... your God is One God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner." (the Qur'an 18:110)
"... take not, with God, another object of worship, lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected." (the Qur'an 17:39)
-- because, as God tells us over and over again in a Message that is echoed throughout ALL His Revealed Scriptures,
"... I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore, serve Me (and no other) ..." (the Qur'an 21:92)
What is the source for the Trinity, something which is considered Shirk in Islam and Shi[color=lightgreen].tuf[/color in Hebrew?
Why do Christians believe in it? Is there any evidence from the Old Testament? And what is the evidence from the New Testament?
Does the Bible mention the word 'Trinity' at all?
The Trinity is a logical inference based on Christ's status as the Son of God and God's power to create through thought (or His word).
A theologist I am familiar with explained it thusly:
We have three axioms:
1) There is no thought without a thinking subject, and vice versa, there is no thinking subject without a thought.
2) Nobody can be his own thought, since it implies a contradiction between subject and object. The subject must be always greater than the object.
3) Nothing is without an activity.
And I infer the following:
a) "The truth is the truth" is the first truth.
b) It can't exist without an activity, so it must be thought by someone.
c) The Father thinks it, and that truth is the Son.
d) The Father is greater than the Son. Nevertheless, they are the same reality, as far as there is no thought without a thinking subject and there is no thinking subject without a thought.
e) The act of thinking itself is the Holy Spirit.
f) So, I understand the Trinity as "The Thinker (Father) in the Act of Thinking (Holy Spirit) the Thought (Son)".
* * *
I.
"'The truth is the truth' is true" is a part of the set of truths, since it is true, but only in a tangencial way, as far as it doesn't need any other truth as a fundament and it exists necessarily.
Every truth must fulfill three properties: 1) coherence with itself, 2) coherence with other truths and 3) inference from other truths. God only fulfills 1) and 2). Thus, it is part and it isn't part of the set of truths.
I'm inclined to think that God lacks a basis. If he had one, it would be something logically previous to God, simpler than him, more elemental and, therefore, greater. In other words: truth is abstractive, that is to say, negative. That which is more composed is more contingent (it has more conditions of existence), unnecessary or superfluous than that which is simpler.
II.
Trinity solves the following problem: How is possible the "creatio ex nihilo" (creation out of nothing) of material things from the divine, inmaterial plenitude?
Gnostics proposed a prolation or pronunciation of God to the material world. Before this prolation occurred, there would have been some unavoidable Silence and Abyss between the Creator and the creation.
Catholic orthodoxy opposes to this conception the coeternity of the Word, engendered from the same substance of God before time began. The Divine Verb was, previous to its current incarnation, the invisible Image of the Creator, but it was also the invisible or rational image of every creation. It acts as a mediator between both realities.
Truth would be inactive and it could not create anything if it wasn't, at the same time, expansive. The self-sufficient truth, then, also implies the true. So, Trinity can be condensed in this sentence: "'The truth (Father) is the truth' (Son) is true (Holy Spirit)". There doesn't exist a simpler way to express the first true proposition, the unfounded fundament of everything.
If Islam denies that this proposition is true, then Islam is wrong and leads to falsity, which can't be attributed to God, but to the doctrines of men. If Islam thinks that there is a simpler procedure in order to express this first true proposition, may Islam show it as soon as possible.
III.
1) God didn't create the world arbitrarily, but according to ideas supported by the Truth.
2) However, the Father can't be fully identified with those coeternal ideas, since they presuppose a creative intention and a preceptive order. In the other hand, the will of Creation is an accidental one compared to the eternal, unengendered and self-subsistent potency of God.
Plus, God's providence depends on his will, while his will doesn't depend on providence.
Finally, ideas are naturally conceivable, but God is absolutely inconceivable.
3) Christ (the Son) is the sum of all the ideas that tend to Creation, and he is also its engendered fundament: the Good, the Truth, the Life.
God, nevertheless, is Christ's fundament.
4) God, an absolutely undetermined potency, engenders the Truth, an absolutely determined potency. At last, it engenders the Spirit, which is the infinite and absolutely determined act, as far as it is coherent with the Truth.
Last edited by Sephiroth; 03-14-2005 at 08:20 AM.
Ah..........Ansar. Many times you have seen the verses and you are not interested in a christians honest thought. I think you just really don't like christians much.
Nonsense. I have many Christian friends whom I love dearly and respect.format_quote Originally Posted by mule
I will get to dear Sephiroth's post is a moment.
Thank you for your post, Sephiroth. Hopefully, we can have a fruitful and enjoyable discussion.
But you also need to throw the Holy Spirit in there, before it becomes Trinity.format_quote Originally Posted by Sephiroth
I find your theological explanation very interesting. I haven't seen that before.
Why does the Father have to think the truth? Doesn't the son think it as well?c) The Father thinks it, and that truth is the Son.
Indeed. But why the need for these thoughts and thinking subjects to begin with? Why the need for the Son? What role does he fullfill that cannot be fullfilled otherwise?d) The Father is greater than the Son. Nevertheless, they are the same reality, as far as there is no thought without a thinking subject and there is no thinking subject without a thought.
This implies that the Holy Spirit is not a being or 'person' as trinitarians assert, but only a state. A state of activity and a state (not amount) of kinetic energy. According to the laws of the universe, there is a low probability that the Holy Spirit will exist. Moreover, there are an infinite number of greater states of activity that exist.e) The act of thinking itself is the Holy Spirit.
All these complications arise from your attempt to define a noun as a verb, which is simply ridiculous to me.
Okay. Now tell me, how does a thought call out to its thinker for help? How does the act of thinking travel to different people? Why does the Father only have one thought? What is He always thinking about? Only one of these identities is a 'person', yet trinitarians asser that each is a person. How can a thinker be locked on one thought? And how does someone's thought become their son? And why does the thought die to atone for the sins of humanity?f) So, I understand the Trinity as "The Thinker (Father) in the Act of Thinking (Holy Spirit) the Thought (Son)".
And why do people pray to the thought and not the thinker?
If you assert that a truth can only be an entity and not a fact of correctness (as it is supposed to mean), then why can't there be only one truth?format_quote Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Again, you are applying the word truth in a different sense. Truth is a reality. Why can God not be the ultimate reality?I'm inclined to think that God lacks a basis. If he had one, it would be something logically previous to God, simpler than him, more elemental and, therefore, greater. In other words: truth is abstractive, that is to say, negative. That which is more composed is more contingent (it has more conditions of existence), unnecessary or superfluous than that which is simpler.
I don't understand what the problem is.Trinity solves the following problem: How is possible the "creatio ex nihilo" (creation out of nothing) of material things from the divine, inmaterial plenitude?
Just a point of interest, it is not just Islam but Judaism as well.If Islam denies that this proposition is true, then Islam is wrong and leads to falsity, which can't be attributed to God, but to the doctrines of men. If Islam thinks that there is a simpler procedure in order to express this first true proposition, may Islam show it as soon as possible.
As a matter of fact, even Christians believe that all previous prophets taught their followers only about ONE God and never mentioned Trinity.
Is Abraham wrong? Noah? Moses? Muhammad?
No. The simplest truth is that there is ONE truth upon which tthe UNIverse rests. It is not a triverse. One Creator sustains it.
Which truth? Your conclusions are based on a very abstract and vague premise. I agree that there was a specific design for the universe, but this was decided by God.1) God didn't create the world arbitrarily, but according to ideas supported by the Truth.
I don't see the logical connection between point 2 and point 3.3) Christ (the Son) is the sum of all the ideas that tend to Creation, and he is also its engendered fundament: the Good, the Truth, the Life.
-----
I am also interested in seeing the response of our Jewish and Atheist members to this.
peace
Also, Christianity says that it still believes in One God but we know that this can't be possible.
1. Christ was sent by God. The sender and the one being sent cannot be the same,
2. Christ called out to God. The Caller and the One being Called upon cannot be the same.
And there are many other examples, but it demonstrates that this is no longer monotheism but it would be viewed by Islam and Judaism as polytheism.
Ansar,
Why don't you prove it from the bible that christians are polytheistic?
mule
Because my whole point is that the Bible doesn't support the polytheisitc doctrine of trinity that Christians believe in. Christ can't be God according to the Bible. Read my post here:
http://www.load-islam.com/forums/sho...7&postcount=12
Ansar what is the doctrine of the trinity?......a definition please.
oh good greif my braty dog just got into my garbage can. :confused:
Yikes.format_quote Originally Posted by mule
Trinity? Well Christians claim it's one being in three persons, but as I have demonstrated (post 8 & 10) it is actually polytheistic.
If it says one being then that settles it. Case closed.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.
Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared [it]? ye [are] even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, [there is] no God; I know not [any].
What you are looking for is a triad. A triad is composed of 3 gods. Mormons believe this.
better luck next time.
mule
Mule, it seems you did not understand my point.
I agree that the BIBLE supports monotheism.
But what Christians believe about Trinity contradicts the Bible. Their trinity is really a triad. Trinitarian Christians disobey the Bible.
There is only ONE God, and Christ is NOT the Son of God.
My point:
trinity=triad
Bible does not support trinity
That is not true. If you do not like the word trinity use Godhead. A trinity is diferent from a triad even if you do not believe me. I don't disobey the bible. It is all throughout the bible. Even in the beginning.........Let us make man in our image. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him..........But what Christians believe about Trinity contradicts the Bible. Their trinity is really a triad. Trinitarian Christians disobey the Bible.
I just don't think you want to hear where it is in the bible.
of course there is only one God. You of course can believe anything you want.There is only ONE God, and Christ is NOT the Son of God.
mule
Even the old testament says that he has a son...........
Proverb 30: 4. Who ascended to heaven and descended? Who gathered wind in his fists? Who wrapped the waters in a garment? Who established all the ends of the earth? What is his name and what is the name of his son, if you know?
It's not an issue of me believing you or not, it's an issue of logic. I showed you why a trinity is really a triad. The caller and the one being called upon cannot be the same. The sender and the one being sent cannot be the same.format_quote Originally Posted by mule
Why didn't you respond to this point? It shows that trinity is really a triad.
The Bible doesn't even mention trinity. And how does making Adam in God's image equal trinity? :confused:I don't disobey the bible. It is all throughout the bible. Even in the beginning.........Let us make man in our image. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him..........
In response:Proverb 30: 4. Who ascended to heaven and descended? Who gathered wind in his fists? Who wrapped the waters in a garment? Who established all the ends of the earth? What is his name and what is the name of his son, if you know?
I believe that answers your question. Also, many prophets in the Bible were called son of God. I could show you hundreds of passages. Does this mean that they're all divine? NO! Because son of God actually has a similar meaning to servant of God.Question: Is Jesus the son that is referred to in Proverbs 30:4?
Answer: In an attempt to prove the divine origin of Jesus, Christian theologians have pointed to this proverb as a prooftext for their claim. However, an examination of what the text actually says will dispel any attempt at such a forced interpretation.
After informing us that he does not have all the wisdom and understanding that he should possess, Agur, the son of Jakeh, poses a series of rhetorical questions, the answers to which he realizes all men who seek knowledge should possess:
Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if you know? (Proverbs 30:4)
Knowing the answers to these questions is to know the fundamentals of all knowledge.
The answer to the question "What is his name?" is given in the Scriptures, where we are informed that only God, the creator of heaven and earth, is in complete control of the forces of nature. Following this question a second question is asked: "What is his son's name?" As the first question is readily answered through a reading of the Scriptures, the source of all true knowledge, so, too, the second question is to be answered by studying the same source. We thus obtain the answer by studying such verses as Exodus 4:22: "Israel is My son, my firstborn"; Deuteronomy 14:1: "You are the children of the Lord your God"; and Hosea 2:1: "It will be said to them: 'You are the children of the living God.'" Consequently, it is Israel that is the name of His son, His firstborn. True, we find elsewhere in the Bible that David and Solomon stand in a filial relationship with God (Psalms 89:27-28, 1 Chronicles 22:10, 28:6). Indeed, this will also be true of the future Messiah. But the right to this title is due, in the final analysis, to the fact that they are the representatives or personifications of Israel as a whole. Hence, it is Israel that is the sole bearer of the august title of the "son" or "firstborn" of God.
Christian theology may argue that any reference to Israel's relationship with God only points to an allegedly greater relationship between God and Jesus, but this argument remains unproved, having no bases in the Jewish Scriptures. It is an argument based on misguided motives, trying to prove the preconceived by forced interpretation. Only in a figurative sense will the future Messiah, when the calms, enter into the "sonship" of God, a position he will share with all of God's chosen servants.
In fact, I would like to ask our Jewish friends for the difference between servant of God and son of God in hebrew.
I think you are using the logic of man to measure the greatness of God. Haven't you ever read........For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness?It's not an issue of me believing you or not, it's an issue of logic. I showed you why a trinity is really a triad. The caller and the one being called upon cannot be the same. The sender and the one being sent cannot be the same.
Why didn't you respond to this point? It shows that trinity is really a triad.
or
the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men?
The Koran does not have the word "royal plural" in it either........The Bible doesn't even mention trinity. And how does making Adam in God's image equal trinity?
Let us (plural) make man in our(plural) image. So God(singular) created man in his(singular) own image, in the image of God (singular)created he him..........
I was not asking you a question. I know what that means. I don't agree with your response. I also don't believe that all the sons of God are divine. Some are servants and others angels and yet in Jesus' case he called God his father.believe that answers your question. Also, many prophets in the Bible were called son of God. I could show you hundreds of passages. Does this mean that they're all divine? NO! Because son of God actually has a similar meaning to servant of God.
Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
mule
As I have mentioned before, it was well known before christianity existed that that refered to His Holy Court of Him and Angels, in their decision to create the world.format_quote Originally Posted by mule
Jesus is not Equal with HaShem, infact we Jews have a prayer called Avienu Malkeinu, Our Father Our King! We say it quite often, calling HaShem our father, yet none of us are magically transformed to become saviours of the universe and new Gods. Perhaps we lack the proper pagan mythology to back us up?I was not asking you a question. I know what that means. I don't agree with your response. I also don't believe that all the sons of God are divine. Some are servants and others angels and yet in Jesus' case he called God his father.
Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Regardless, the very fact that Jesus broke the sabbath by picking grain and telling others to break the sabbath (in addition to many other instances of Jesus breaking the commandments) shows that he was not a good Jew, and could never be Moshiach:
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with “fear of G-d”. (Isaiah 11:2)
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