Approved, sorry about the delay, I was making pancakes out of trousers.
Actually, I wasn't.
This is an opinion piece by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, a regular contributor for The Independent. She herself is a Muslim.
She made some interesting statements, which I thought might be interesting to post here.
Responses welcome.
Full article here.[...]
Like all other humans, I am a creature of multiple and changeable parts. However, British Muslims are not permitted such complexities. We must be only Muslim (definition highly specified), walking rule books in uniform, freakishly religious, and preferably demanding and noisy.
Authoritarian Muslim "leaders" impose these orders. But so too do many of the influential and powerful for whom there is no such thing as a complicated or comfortable Muslim who skilfully negotiates various allegiances. Institutional gatekeepers trade in archetypes: those who vociferously refuse accommodation and defiant apostates are easy. Ardent opponents of all things western are sought-after enemies; facile supporters of western duplicities are best friends.
Not welcome are Muslims who defy the classification system – too much toil and trouble when everyone wants simple clarity. Are you with us or against us? Do you have faith or are you a democrat? Do you think Salman Rushdie was right in his Satanic Verses or do you want him dead? Do you support an Islamic state in the west or do you want the west to allow you an Islamic state within? TV is the worst culprit, but quangos and think tanks are not far behind.
They know best what makes a real Muslim. Huma Qureshi, who has great hair and style, says she was auditioned for a BBC series on Muslim women and rejected because "they wanted a really authentic, well-covered one". In her memoir, TV journalist Yasmin Hai writes of her irritation with executives who always want on screen "some mad Mullah types".
At a major arts conference, organisers refused to invite a devout Muslim artist because she paints faces and to them was a heretic. Millions of Muslims are expected to pick a single identity and plump it up with artificial injections of absolute loyalty, causing a distortion both grotesque and unpalatable. Muslims who are content in their faith and are of this land and its history belong but are told they cannot make such claims. They have lived in a democracy, imbibed its principles but have been refused full membership. This Thursday, the day of the local elections, some of us are launching a new organisation to help turn around the invented, destructive and man-made divide splitting Muslims and their state.
British Muslims for Secular Democracy (BMSD) believes the separation of state and faith gives us all a safe and mutual space. Most members are not atheists. We can see clearly how religion is poisoning political governance and that politics contaminates religion. Muslims must be free to choose how they practise their religion or even just to be "cultural" Muslims. Diversity has been the constant companion to our faith since its inception. Most important of all, we hope to speak to young British Muslims who have lost trust and their bearings. Obvious and subtle anti-Muslim racism and the failures of their own communities have alienated too many. Self-exclusion and exclusion are blades of the same scissors.
[...]
Approved, sorry about the delay, I was making pancakes out of trousers.
Actually, I wasn't.
What an amazing post.
Take me a while to get to the bottom of the points raised. Excellent find Glo.
In a nutshell it asks, "what makes a muslim?", is it ensuring that you dunk flies in your milkshake? Or is it acknowlaging, trusting and fearing in Allah?
Thanks, barneyformat_quote Originally Posted by barney
I was interested to see how this article - written by a Muslimah - will be received here in LI.
I am sure some Muslim members will strongly disagree, but others may not. I hope we can keep this to a sensible and rational thread ... here's hoping!
Muezzin, let me know if your trousers can be salvaged. I am quite handy with needle and thread, you know.
Peace
It started out great but then she completely ruined it by saying:
In other words, mixing religion and politics leads it danger... and yet the Prophet was a religious and political leader, only a blind person would deny that.British Muslims for Secular Democracy (BMSD) believes the separation of state and faith gives us all a safe and mutual space.
Oh, look what I found...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasmin_Alibhai-BrownMany Muslims regard her as treacherous because she criticizes Islam, and calls for the hijab to be banned.
Ahem. That pretty much sums up everything for me. I hope you'll excuse us if we don't take her too seriously.
Last edited by Malaikah; 05-03-2008 at 01:27 AM.
Exactly, the likes of her and Ameena Wadood.format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
The article of her saying that is actually found here: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...oo-447845.html.
Her opinions are far from ''interesting'', they are purely idiotic.
May Allaah guide her inshaa Allaah.
Last edited by Intisar; 05-03-2008 at 01:33 AM.
Greetings, Malaikah and Ameenaformat_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Like I said, I was expecting some people to disagree with her strongly.
I am interested in learning how people feel and think, and what makes them tick ... so your opinion matters to me.
It may be that there are no Muslims here in LI who agree with her.
It may be there are some, but they won't speak out.
It may be that people who would agree with her are likely to hang out in other forums ...
With regards to her feeling stereotyped (by the Islamic authority, but also by the secular environment she lives in), can you relate to that?
Do you agree/disagree?
You may find some of her views critical of Islam, but are there others you might agree with?
Or does the fact that she makes some critical statements of Islam make all her views false?
I hope you don't mind my questions.
I love to hear what people think.
Nice topic, thanks for sharing...format_quote Originally Posted by gloGreetings, Malaikah and Ameena
Like I said, I was expecting some people to disagree with her strongly.
I am interested in learning how people feel and think, and what makes them tick ... so your opinion matters to me.
It may be that there are no Muslims here in LI who agree with her.
It may be there are some, but they won't speak out.
It may be that people who would agree with her are likely to hang out in other forums ...
With regards to her feeling stereotyped (by the Islamic authority, but also by the secular environment she lives in), can you relate to that?
Do you agree/disagree?
You may find some of her views critical of Islam, but are there others you might agree with?
Or does the fact that she makes some critical statements of Islam make all her views false?
I hope you don't mind my questions.
I love to hear what people think.
Honestly, there are things which she says in that article which are quite relevant to me as a Muslim, even though she is not talking about "my kind" of Muslim. There is the palpable expectation from strangers on the street that we as Muslim women cover up because someone is forcing us, that we might be black and blue underneath "all that stuff" we wear. There is the definite expectation that we are not able to read and write, let alone think.
On the other hand, if she is calling for the hijab to be banned from Islamic thought and principles, then she is feeding the stereotype. She is helping it along, and even aiding and abetting it. She would appear to be speaking for just "her type" of Muslim, rather than all of us as a whole. And when we speak of prejudice towards our own community, then care should be taken to not be divisive within your own community. I mean, I can feel her outrage...shouldn't she be able to feel mine, rather than (perhaps inadvertently) blaming "my type" of Muslim (or Islamic principles) for the stereotype that she is expected to conform to?
Just my thoughts off the top of my head. Apologies if I seem inconsistent or don't make sense.
I only seem to get the muslim stereotype on the internet. But then, that's because 80% of the internet is made up of 'tards. In real life, I've had noone come up to me and make any muslim stereotype comments. Which may have something to do with the fact that my hometown is pretty tolerant of everyone. But I like to think it's because I'm so freakin awesome.
Last edited by aamirsaab; 05-05-2008 at 08:37 AM. Reason: typo
I agree with the problem of Muslim being stereotyped - by Muslims and non-Muslims alike.format_quote Originally Posted by glo
format_quote Originally Posted by gloGreetings, Malaikah and Ameena
Like I said, I was expecting some people to disagree with her strongly.
I am interested in learning how people feel and think, and what makes them tick ... so your opinion matters to me.
It may be that there are no Muslims here in LI who agree with her.
It may be there are some, but they won't speak out.
It may be that people who would agree with her are likely to hang out in other forums ...
With regards to her feeling stereotyped (by the Islamic authority, but also by the secular environment she lives in), can you relate to that?
Do you agree/disagree?
You may find some of her views critical of Islam, but are there others you might agree with?
some folks make Islam look bad and some Muslims treat other Muslims bad, but if you want to be taken seriously...
Or does the fact that she makes some critical statements of Islam make all her views false?
not necessarily so, but they DO make you want to quit reading and wasting your time on such a pathetic agenda. though maybe we should just make du'a for her and her atheist buddy (Muslims)
I hope you don't mind my questions.
I love to hear what people think.
Peace Glo,
shall we start here:
Subhanallah, so you don't HAVE to be an ATHIEST to join their little group...British Muslims for Secular Democracy (BMSD) believes the separation of state and faith gives us all a safe and mutual space. MOST members are NOT atheists.
so, NOT being an atheist makes you entitled to be a member? how... enlightened of them...
as it stands today, i can see some reason in that statement.We can see clearly how religion is poisoning political governance and that politics contaminates religion.
i VEHEMENTLY disagree, BUT there might be some logic, and indeed precedent, for "cultural Muslims" to exist. there were some VERY WEAK MUSLIMS in early Islam. the Rasulullah, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam, was VERY patient with some and the goal was to increase them in Taqwa and Iman and get them on the straight path.Muslims must be free to choose how they practise their religion or even just to be "cultural" Muslims.
erm, NOT to the point of being Kufaar! cuz, then your simply not a Muslim anymore...Diversity has been the constant companion to our faith since its inception.
now supposing there was a group calling themselves "Christians" and they claim that Mary was a Temple prostitute (May Allah protect and forgive us!) and that Jesus was merely a result of of some harlotry, (May Allah protect and forgive us!) . using this for their basis of doctrine, Priests are PERMITTED to rape alter boys and nuns are REQUIRED to submit to any priest OR nun who so desires them. on top of that, they claim that Jesus was not only NOT god, but not even a prophet (May Allah protect and forgive us!), JUST the sex partner of the REAL head of the church, Mary Magdala.
NOW, this being the case, would you then take a closer examination of their beliefs to see if there was something that you COULD agree with? OR would you just say that they aren't Christians like MANY MANY Christians do with some folks who have views ALOT closer to Christianity, such as Jehovah's Witness or the followers and successors of Herbert W. Armstrong?
OR would you say, i am too busy to deal with such nonsense?
Last edited by YusufNoor; 05-03-2008 at 07:59 PM. Reason: for someone special...
Everybody gets stereotyped by everybody else. Its what we humans do.
We say muslims are angry violent madmen who want to take over the world.
We say jews are greedy rich madmen who already control the world.
We say atheists are angry immoral anarchists out to destroy the world.
We say christians are crazy people eagerly looking forward to the end of the world.
This is the game we play.
Oh, and we say women are bad drivers and men never ask for directions.
We humans are just like that. Humans suck.
In contrast, dogs don't care what breed the other dog is. They'll go sniff each other regardless.
Last edited by Pygoscelis; 05-05-2008 at 02:25 AM.
Hi Pygoformat_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Do you think there are grains of truths behind these stereotypes?
Where do they come from, and how are they sustained?
Surely stereotypes evolve and can be changed, given time ...
Should we not strive to undermine those stereotypes?
Let's demonstrate that it is possible
- to be a Muslims, but not an angry violent madman who wants to take over the world.
- to be a Jews but not a greedy rich madman who already controls the world.
- to be an atheists but not an angry immoral anarchist out to destroy the world.
- to be a Christians but not a crazy person eagerly looking forward to the end of the world.
- to be a woman and a good driver
- to be a man and ask for directions ... (Yeah, right!
)
Only by our example and insistence will people change their view about us ...
Unfortunately confirmation bias will hamper any such effort we make.
To take the less emotionally charged stereotypes of the above, women actually ARE decent drivers pretty much on par with men and men actually DO frequently ask for directions. We just tend to remember the cases that match our preconceptions and forget the ones that don't.
In the end, the simple fact is that human beings are hardwired to see things in terms of ingroup/outgroup and various stereotypes.
The best I think we can do is to spread awareness that we do this so we can catch ourselves doing it.
I, for example, need to keep in mind that not all religious people are out run my life. And I would ask the religious folks here to keep in mind that not all atheists are out to corrupt them from their paths of enlightenment.
Last edited by Pygoscelis; 05-05-2008 at 04:59 PM.
The best stereotypes come from Dolby.
Fascinating article though. I like the points raised about the 'identity crisis' of sorts some British Muslims find themselves going through.
you are right my dear brother...We just tend to remember the cases that match our preconceptions and forget the ones that don't.
yes there are some of her views I agree with...You may find some of her views critical of Islam, but are there others you might agree with?
No absolutely not...Or does the fact that she makes some critical statements of Islam make all her views false?
look my dear sister glo noone is perfect .we are human beings and we are not impeccable ...noone is perfectly right and noone is perfectly wrong. we are all have our ups and downs..
we can`t judge people because of one statement or their thoughts ,all we have to do is to give advices to them and open their eyes on the truth...
we have to talk to the others with wiseness , wisdom and moralism...
we have to treat the others just like the way we want the others to treat us in this is how our prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)did teach us...
beautiful thread my dear ...
may Allah guide us all and reward us with the paradise...
Ameeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Recent press releases by Muslims:
format_quote Originally Posted by
format_quote Originally Posted by
format_quote Originally Posted by
format_quote Originally Posted by
format_quote Originally Posted by
So this makes it ok to stereotyped all muslims?
Anyone can quote.
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,format_quote Originally Posted by kirk
counterpoint:
VIENNA, Austria — The man accused of imprisoning his daughter in a dungeon for 24 years and fathering seven children with her met for the first time with a prosecutor Wednesday and agreed to further questioning, an official said.
Fritzl's lawyer, Rudolf Mayer, said his client had access to a television in jail and was closely watching coverage of his case, which has garnered worldwide attention.
Mayer made his comments when asked to confirm a report Wednesday by the newspaper Oesterreich that quoted Fritzl as saying he was not a monster and that without him, the 19-year-old would no longer be alive.
Fritzl was bothered by the fact that he was being made out to be a monster. He said Fritzl told him: "I'm only being portrayed as a monster and not as someone who committed monstrous acts... I could have killed all of them — then nothing would have happened. No one would have ever known about it."
Meanwhile, Austria's justice minister acknowledged that authorities may have been gullible in their handling of Josef Fritzl when he reported his daughter missing nearly a quarter of a century ago.
Fritzl and prosecutor Christiane Burkheiser talked for about two hours Wednesday but did not discuss the allegations against him — that he raped his daughter for years, imprisoned her in his cellar, and fathered her seven children, St. Poelten prosecution spokesman Gerhard Sedlacek said.
NEW ORLEANS — Ten Tulane University fraternity members faced felony charges Wednesday and the school suspended Pi Kappa Alpha following accusations that the group burned pledges with hot water and pepper spray during a "hell night" initiation.
The fraternity members face felony battery charges — punishable by up to 15 years in prison — in an alleged hazing incident in which two pledges received second- and third-degree burns from boiling water and crab boil being poured on their bodies.
"The two students were treated at a local hospital for severe burns that occurred during the hazing," Officer Gary Flot, a New Orleans police spokesman, said in a news release.
A Tulane spokesman refused to comment on the allegations or the status of the students on Wednesday, but the school issued a news release saying it had suspended its chapter of Pi Kappa Alpha fraternity and would investigate.
"This fraternity is no longer a recognized fraternity at Tulane," the school's news release said. "The university has zero tolerance for any type of hazing or other incident which can potentially endanger the well being of any student."
Eight of the fraternity members had turned themselves in to New Orleans police by Wednesday. They were booked with aggravated second-degree battery.
Two others were still being sought.
The pledges were scalded with hot crab boil and pepper spray late April 26 or early April 26 to see who could stand the most pain, Frank D'Amico Jr., an attorney for one of the victims, told WWL-TV.
D'Amico did not return calls from The Associated Press.
Two of the victims had second- and third-degree burns to various parts of the body and were treated at Touro Hospital. A Pi Kappa Alpha national spokesman said Wednesday the fraternity would have a statement later.
ST. ANTHONY, Idaho — A suspected illegal immigrant has been charged with raping a 10-year-old girl who later gave birth in eastern Idaho.
The girl gave birth less than two weeks ago by caesarian section at Madison Memorial Hospital in Rexburg, Fremont County Sheriff Ralph C. Davis and other authorities said. Officials would not disclose the gender, date of birth or paternity of the baby.
"I wouldn't have believed a 10-year-old could conceive in the first place," Davis said.
A hospital spokeswoman would not discuss the condition of the girl or the baby and would not say whether either was still in the hospital Wednesday.
The story was first reported by KIDK Television in Idaho Falls.
St. Anthony police began investigating on April 28 after medical officials reported a pregnant child, and Guadalupe Gutierrez-Juarez, 37, of St. Anthony, was arrested the same day, Police Chief James Smith said.
"We had good information from witnesses," Smith said.
In documents that were filed April 29 in 7th District Court and obtained by The Associated Press, Gutierrez-Juarez is charged with one count of rape. He remained in jail with bail set at $250,000 pending a preliminary hearing May 13.
Authorities said Gutierrez-Juarez did not have legal documentation to live in the United States. His home town and nationality were not immediately clear, but police said they had received no complaints about him before investigating the pregnancy.
The investigation was continuing. Smith would not give details on the condition of the girl but said additional counts of rape could be filed.
"The prosecutor is still considering doing that," he said.
Prosecutor Karl H. Lewies did not return telephone calls Wednesday from The AP.
Child protection laws prohibit the Idaho Department of Health and Welfare from confirming whether the agency was contacted about the case, spokesman Tom Shanahan said.
"In a situation like that, we probably would be contacted by the hospital," Shanahan said. "If there was a crime committed we would be working with local law enforcement."
If the girl's home is found to be unsafe, a custody hearing would be held immediately and the courts would decide where to place her, Shanahan said.
"If they decide the child needs foster care, we would do that immediately," he said.
While a 10-year-old giving birth is highly unusual, it is not impossible, said Laurie Krieger, a medical anthropologist in Washington D.C.
"We do know that girls in the U.S. are menstruating sooner," a development which can speed up the production of sex hormones and make pregnancy possible earlier than might have been thought likely, Kreiger said.
Nutrition, body mass and other factors, including the fact that children in the United States weigh more than in past generations, contribute to early menstruation, she added.
SAN DIEGO — San Diego State University has suspended six fraternities after a sweeping drug investigation that landed members of three fraternities in jail on suspicion of openly dealing drugs on campus.
The probe, prompted by the death a year ago of a freshman sorority member from a cocaine overdose, led to the arrests of 96 people, 75 of them San Diego State students. A second drug death occurred while the investigation went on.
Twenty-nine people were arrested early Tuesday in raids at nine locations including the Theta Chi fraternity, where agents found cocaine, Ecstasy and three guns. Eighteen of them were wanted on warrants for selling to undercover agents.
Theta Chi and five other fraternities have been suspended pending a hearing on evidence gathered during the investigation.
Authorities found that some fraternity members openly dealt drugs including one who sent out a mass text message advertising special prices on cocaine. Two kilograms of cocaine were seized, along with 350 Ecstasy pills, marijuana, psychedelic mushrooms, hash oil, methamphetamine, illicit prescription drugs, several guns and at least $60,000 in cash.
Related
Profits may have been used to finance fraternity operations, according to an affidavit filed in the case.
One Theta Chi member allegedly sent text messages to regular customers offering reduced prices on bulk quantities of cocaine before heading to Las Vegas for a fraternity formal.
"Attn faithful customers both myself and my associates will be in Vegas this coming weekend," the 19-year-old student wrote in the text message. "So stock up, we will be back Sunday night."
Those arrested included a student who was about to receive a criminal justice degree and another who was to receive a master's degree in homeland security.
The Greek system at San Diego State has about 3,000 students, but Fraternity Row plays an outsized role in campus life. It sits a block from Cox Arena, home to many college sporting events.
Dale Taylor, national executive director of Theta Chi, said he was "obviously shocked and saddened" by the allegations. Theta Chi prohibited the San Diego chapter from group activities like parties or sports activities and will investigate additional disciplinary measures, up to expulsion of members or the entire chapter.
The San Diego chapter, founded 61 years ago, was the first national fraternity on campus and has 65 members.
Theta Chi's San Diego chapter declined to comment. The chapter occupies two low-slung homes a block off Fraternity Row, with large red-and-white Greek symbols propped on the roof.
Theta Chi has 131 chapters in the U.S. and Canada and more than 161,000 initiates. It was founded in 1856.
University police launched their investigation into drug sales on campus after Shirley Poliakoff, 19, died from a cocaine overdose in May 2007. Investigators discovered many students in fraternities were aware of organized drug dealing within their houses.
As the investigation continued, another student, from Mesa College, died of a cocaine overdose at an SDSU fraternity house on Feb. 26, the DEA said.
Some drugs bought and sold by students were traced to gangs linked to Mexican cartels, according to the DEA. Agents collected about $100,000 worth of drugs, including cocaine, ecstasy pills, hallucinogenic mushrooms and high-grade marijuana that were being advertised in "resale quantities" between members of the fraternity and other students.
ADELANTO, Calif. — A top animal control officer outside of Los Angeles has resigned as he faces charges in the drowning of nearly 50 kittens.
Kevin Murphy, a head of animal control in Adelanto, Calif., was placed on paid leave in March after prosecutors accused the 36-year-old of drowning the kittens over a four-month period. He faces six counts of animal cruelty.
Kathy Williamson of the Victor Valley Animal Protective League said she took in animals that Adelanto Animal Control workers brought her. She said the city paid her $23 to take in a live cat for up to 10 days; $10 to take a dead one.
City Manager Jim Hart on Tuesday said Murphy's resignation was effective May 1. Murphy couldn't be reached for comment.
Adelanto is about 70 miles northeast of Los Angeles.do we now know EVERYTHING we need to know about non-Muslims?
PARIS — A 36-year-old woman was taken into police custody in the French Alps after police discovered the bodies of three of her newborn babies hidden at her home, police said Thursday.
Police said they were tipped off by the woman's former romantic partner, who said he discovered the bodies hidden in boxes at the house. In a search Wednesday, officers found the bodies of three newborns, born between 2001 and 2006, and the woman acknowledged that she had given birth to them, police said.
French media reports said officials were trying to determine how the babies died. The woman, whose identity was not immediately released, was in police custody in Albertville.
The woman apparently gained so little weight during her pregnancies that nobody realized she was expecting, the reports said.
A neighbor of the couple, Eraldo Anselmo, said he was present when the woman's former partner discovered them. They called police.
"I never saw her pregnant," the neighbor told France Bleu radio.
Eric Segura, a local representative for the SNOP police union, said officials planned to carry out a DNA test on the bodies to check who the parents were.
"For the moment, the reasons are not explained," he told France-3 radio. "She said she could not face up to being a mother ... to her children."
The announcement had echoes of another case that shocked France. Last year, two of Frenchwoman Veronique Courjault's newborns were found dead in a freezer at the family residence in Seoul, South Korea, where she and her husband had been living since 2002.
Police said Courjault also told investigators that she killed another child she bore in 1999 in France and burned the body in the fireplace of the home.
I like stereotypes. It allows me to pigeonhole people.
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