On the contrary, it is naive to believe religion, like any other ideology, does NOT provoke or stimulate war.
If you bring all wars back to their basics, they are IMHO always about two things: Material gain and/or Ideology
I do not know which of these two matter more overall, but without doubt people are willing to kill for their ideas and beliefs and this starts wars.
The only real question is whether religious beliefs are in this context any different from non-religious beliefs. One could make the argument that religious beliefs are by definition more dangerous in this sense, simply because they are based on immutable sources ('God wants us to fight, who are we to stop then?'). Religion and pragmatism simply don't coexist that well. I'm not so sure though, it is especially pointless to generalize about all religions, since they can be so different in style and substance. Yes, the substance does matter as well. Some ideologies are simply more easy to hijack for war than others IMHO.
On a last note, personally I think ideologies play a much larger role in starting wars then stopping wars. IMHO actual 'real-world' suffering, material losses and circumstances are what matter most when people consider whether to sue for peace or not. Once you are losing the war, lose your house and people die around you, most people will probably downgrade the importance of their beliefs in the 'stop vs. continue fighting' equation.
It only takes one side to start a war, it needs two sides to talk peace.
God is the creator of all that is seen and unseen, the same God is the creator of all people. God is greater than the sum of all the religions of the world put together.
We only need to understand that we shall never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.
In the spirit of praying for justice for all people
Eric
You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.
Well, there is this thing called a "democratic peace". No developed democratic country has ever fought a war against another developed democratic country.
In that sense at least democracy offers more hope for peace than religion, since historically countries that ruled on the basis of religion were involved in plenty of wars, internal (fighting heretics) or external (fighting the heathens).
I'm actually quite optimistic about our future regarding war/peace. The more developed a country, the less likely it is to fall to civil war. And intra-state wars have become particularly rare in the last five decades or so already.
Our best hope for peace IMHO, is strong economic growth and the rise of a assertive middle class that is capable of controlling the political scene.
Religion can only be a part of the solution if it advocates and promotes non-violence unreservedly. The problem arises when religious leaders find evidence from within their religious beliefs that sanctifies acts of violence. There will always be disputes between men but when one side or the other suggests that God will reward them for acts of violence that’s when religion becomes part of the problem not part of the solution. That’s why (IMHO) religious leaders should stay away from any form of political or public life beyond that of pursuing their religious beliefs with those of like mind.
Our best hope for peace IMHO, is strong economic growth and the rise of a assertive middle class that is capable of controlling the political scene.
This is the formula the world is working towards, and it is exactly the formula that leads to continued injustice and war, it can never work.
About a billion people live on less than a dollar a day, and as long as they are out of sight, we don’t care.
About half the world population lives on less than two and a half dollars a day, and as long as we can exploit them, we don’t care.
The cumulative wealth of the top 100 richest people in the world, is equivalent to the combined wealth of the poorest eighty countries in the world, about a third of the world’s population live in these countries.The top richest people don't care.
We don’t worry if we buy products that were made by someone earning two dollars for a twelve hour day, thank you very much, it just means I can have more.
Unless we seek justice for the poor the oppressed, we will never see peace on Earth.
Justice for the poor and oppressed is at the heart of all religions, and this is the part we choose to ignore.
In the spirit of praying for justice for all people
Eric
You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.
well said - whats even more intresting is that some democratic countries will overthrow others for there own gain - eg - US in Iran.
the problem is humans - you dont realy need religion to start wars - the past century has taught us that lesson
Last edited by Zafran; 06-18-2009 at 01:24 PM.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Approx 80% of the worlds population is thiest. We're now living in the year 2009. I say religion has already done a bloody good job of saving the world so far and long may it continue.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
Well, there is this thing called a "democratic peace". No developed democratic country has ever fought a war against another developed democratic country.
And yet they join together and prey on a weaker country? Where's the 'peace' in that?
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Indeed. Define "saved". We could have very different ideas as to what "saving the world" means.
Yup, figured we'd need a definition of 'saved'. How about eliminated most (if not all) of 'evil' (do we need a definition of that too?), everyone lives happily ever after, sadness becomes rare, people live free and equal, poverty and prejudice become things of the past, rainbows, sunshine, daisies; the whole shebang.
How is the world 'saved' according to your definition?
How is the world 'saved' according to your definition?
I know the question is not directed at me, but I'd love to answer it, cause it's sort of a dream I have, of course it will never come true I believe, but we can be dreamers. (Had to do the Beatles song lol)
I believe a 'saved' world, would be a world where we know a lot more knowledge, and respect and tolerance are valued above all.
Belief in democracy could in theory be negated by a rational argument which outlined a system that was demonstrably better. Religion, on the other hand depends on faith, which cannot be negated by any rational argument.
Random question I just thought of. As an atheist, do you believe that the world can be 'saved'? If yes, by what means?
That's one of the biggest questions of all, and I don't really know what the answer is. As others have said, it depends what you mean by 'saved'.
Firm believers in anything, whether it's a religion or form of governance, must have some amount of faith in what they believe in, and there are certain times when a rational argument, no matter how logical, will not affect the beliefs that a person holds.
How do you interpret 'saved'?
Another question to anyone with an answer. This concept of 'saving the world', is it explicitly stated in Islam? Personally, I view the coming of Jesus peace be upon him, and getting rid of Al Dajjal, and bringing peace and prosperity to the world as the 'saving' of the world. Although now that I think about it, after that happens, the world goes down the drain yet again. So I guess eternal salvation is not attainable in this world, just the temporary kind?..
Belief in democracy could in theory be negated by a rational argument which outlined a system that was demonstrably better. Religion, on the other hand depends on faith, which cannot be negated by any rational argument.
not realy........dont people actually believe in democracy for it to work? Even if other systems were "better" - wouldnt that be a threat democracy? it would react - atleast the people who actually believed in it would.
systems of governing are not always based on reason inculding democracy - humans are not purely rational beings - i'm sure some people who are in support of democracy believe in it for other reasons which are not rational - sometimes to keep out other systems which is most of the time based on fear.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Firm believers in anything, whether it's a religion or form of governance, must have some amount of faith in what they believe in, and there are certain times when a rational argument, no matter how logical, will not affect the beliefs that a person holds.
True, but the more faith involved, the more impervious the belief will be to rational criticism. I would argue that it takes far more faith to believe the things that religions expect us to believe than it takes to adhere to a political persuasion.
How do you interpret 'saved'?
For the purposes of this post I'll interpret the question as meaning "how could we become a happy, healthy, prosperous and peaceful planet?"
Again, the answer is "I don't know". I can't help suspecting, though, that religion may be one of the things preventing us from getting there. I wouldn't support the forceful eradication of religion, or anything like that, but I would like to think that eventually humanity will just grow out of it. Having said that, I doubt it will happen any time soon. Although there are many factors involved, two are crucial: as long as poverty remains widespread and high quality education remains scarce, religion will have a place.
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