Two Radio programmes debating the subject of to the Islamic veil. My purpose on posting this is not to cause bad feeling or stir up trouble, but we (as Muslims) have to be aware of what we are up against.
The first was a debate on the moral maze, on whether the Burka/Niqaab should be banned in the UK?
France is the latest European country to talk of banning the burqa - the full Islamic face veil for women. Belgium has already voted for a ban and there's also been talk of similar laws in Holland and Spain. France has the largest Muslim population in Europe and polls there show overwhelming support for the proposal. It's estimated that around 1900 women in France wear the burqa and most do so because they want to. Those in favour of a ban argue that the burqa is a gateway to extremism and an attack on secularism, a central value of modern-day France. For many this is also an issue of protecting women's rights; the burqa they argue, is a symbol of male oppression and as one French law maker is reported to have said, women who wear them must be liberated, even against their will.
The state banning something as personal as what you chose to wear in public is a tricky issue for liberal Western democracies, but can the rush to uncover Europe's most pious Muslims be explained solely by a newfound desire to protect the rights of women? Or is this more about notions of cultural purity and the darker side of humanity in Europe which raises its head from time to time? The fear of the stranger, of shunning those who look different to ourselves - the attitude which can lead to Islamophobia/racism. How far should we compromise our values to accommodate the cultural norms from different faiths and societies?
Michael Buerk chairs with Claire Fox, Clifford Longley, Anne McElvoy and Matthew Taylor.
Witnesses:
Peter Whittle, Director, The New Culture Forum
Mona Eltahaway, Commentator and public lecturer on Arab and Muslim issues
Khola Hasan, Islamic legal consultant
Dr Salman Sayyid, Reader in Sociology at Leeds.
You can listen to it here, be warned though its (45 minutes long!) and does get heated at points but its well worth listening to because it reveals the thinking of the British establishment in regards to the Islamic veil.
What do you think of the points made in the debate? What are your views, opinions? I think I get the general idea but would not want to be presumptuous.
There won't be any ban in this country, the immigration minister said its 'unlikely' they're gonna copy the french
Last edited by aadil77; 07-18-2010 at 09:53 PM.
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
I think the same - it is very unlikely there will be a ban because its non sensical - there have been many threads on this issue but I will repeat what I said anyway
1 - if they ban the burkha because women are actually being forced to wear it then these women will just be forced to sit at home.
2 - if they ban the burkha because women choose to wear it then they are restricting there freedom - it doesnt work one way or another.
peace
Last edited by Zafran; 07-18-2010 at 03:21 AM.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
if they ban the burkha because women choose to wear it then they are restricting there freedom - it doesnt work one way or another.
Exactly. If anyone says they are champions of freedom and that they want to ban the burka in public places then they are hypocrites, plain and simple.
Do they want to ban clown costumes and Halloween masks also? People can phrase it any way they want, but if they want to ban such religious dress it is because they fear or despise the followers of that religion.
Exactly. If anyone says they are champions of freedom and that they want to ban the burka in public places then they are hypocrites, plain and simple.
Do they want to ban clown costumes and Halloween masks also? People can phrase it any way they want, but if they want to ban such religious dress it is because they fear or despise the followers of that religion.
I agree.
Idiots polluting in daily fail commentary section (like always) don’t seem to understand the consequences of banning the “Burkha” and these idiots don’t know the difference between the Nigab and Burkha.
For example let take the comment below serious:
We aren't asking for a ban on the burka - we are DEMANDING a ban on ALL face coverings in public regardless of gender, ethnicity, age, or the material from which the face covering is made.
I'm tired of being reasonable & tolerant. It's someone else's turn for a change.
- kate, fairwater, cardiff, 18/7/2010 10:20
**** shame I tell ya... same goes to the Caribbean festival British people like to go to so often.
And how are the British people going to hide their facial expression when they lose again in the world cup 2014
She did in fact say covering one’s face, didn’t she? Painting the England flag on face still constitutes covering one’s face considering that we won’t be able to tell who and who. I can’t, they all look bloody same to me.
The whole argument is stupid and it will never be banned in the UK. I know plenty of non Muslims and some I spoke to other the internet that would happily wear one as a protest if it ever get banned lol!!!:bravo:
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one.." [Bukhaari].
The bigotry comments in daily fail never fails to amuse me.
How dare one man decide on behalf of the British public. If he listened to the British people he would find that the vast majority want it banned. It has no place here.
- Annie, Birmingham, 18/7/2010 9:33
Blimey Annie and the British public give flying donkeys about Burkha? Last time I checked they all preoccupied with their lives and hardly give a thought to minority women who wear it. If in fact the above is true, why isn’t there petition signed by majority of “British public”. Annie and her bigoted friends does not include “majority of British public” nor does the unintelligent and thoughtless comment in daily fail and trolls in other websites either.
Utter losers are anxious by what other people wear.
Last edited by Rhubarb Tart; 07-18-2010 at 11:50 PM.
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one.." [Bukhaari].
The problem is, we never appreciated it when we had the right, now when it's being taken away we are up in arms. Next they will ban mosques, then we will all want to run to the mosque. If you don't appreciate the favours of allah he will snatch them one by one. We are to blame.
How many women really do wear the full burka, I would say no more than 5 - 10%. If every muslim women wore the burka in every country they live, almost every country would seem like an Islamic country. Let them try to ban it then.
How many women really do wear the full burka, I would say no more than 5 - 10%. If every muslim women wore the burka in every country they live, almost every country would seem like an Islamic country. Let them try to ban it then.
That is sadly true. I have not verified the percentages you quote, but personal observations seem to agree. Here in the USA it seems that the only ones who wear full Burkha are recent reverts and NOI. Sadly NOI are not Muslim even though they believe themselves to be.
Perhaps all this hoopla about banning may wake us up and encourage women to wear the full Burkha.
I think the same - it is very unlikely there will be a ban because its non sensical - there have been many threads on this issue but I will repeat what I said anyway
1 - if they ban the burkha because women are actually being forced to wear it then these women will just be forced to sit at home.
Why will they just sit at home and I note you say FORCED to sit at home, who forces them to do that?
2 - if they ban the burkha because women choose to wear it then they are restricting there freedom - it doesnt work one way or another.
Is this a principle you are expounding here, that anyone can do anything and if it is banned then we are restricting freedom?
That is sadly true. I have not verified the percentages you quote, but personal observations seem to agree. Here in the USA it seems that the only ones who wear full Burkha are recent reverts and NOI. Sadly NOI are not Muslim even though they believe themselves to be. Perhaps all this hoopla about banning may wake us up and encourage women to wear the full Burkha.
I see from this you are in favour of the burka and I guess you would support women them in that but are you open handed here, will you equally support those who see it as a useless symbol or even as a symbol of oppression? Is it reasonable that God, the God who created the timeless vastness of eternity, the laws of physics, the beauty of the earth would want women to walk around in a kind of tent? I just cannot see God thinking this way?
What is you view of women who don't wear the burka?
Why will they just sit at home and I note you say FORCED to sit at home, who forces them to do that?
we will be forced to do that by those who take away our freedom to cover and yes i say FREEDOM
Our Lord! Verily, we have heard the call of one calling to Faith: 'Believe in your Lord,' and we have believed.
Our Lord! Forgive us our sins and expiate from us our evil deeds, and make us die (in the state of righteousness) along with Al-Abrar
I see from this you are in favour of the burka and I guess you would support women them in that but are you open handed here, will you equally support those who see it as a useless symbol or even as a symbol of oppression? Is it reasonable that God, the God who created the timeless vastness of eternity, the laws of physics, the beauty of the earth would want women to walk around in a kind of tent? I just cannot see God thinking this way?
What is you view of women who don't wear the burka?
what do you know of what god thinks? your god died a couple of thousand years ago.. God doesn't give us fruits without cover still modern day, oranges and banana haven't shed their coats for your pleasure and I doubt if their coat were shed if you'd reach for them, so that is nature that God created and dictated to his laws.. a woman's garment grants her, her anonymity, her freedom, and her identity.. you don't like tents then go on and look the other way, surely there is a thousand wh ore that you can look toward and who gyrate and gesticulate around the clock for your 'modern' and with the time carnal and basic pleasures?
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
we will be forced to do that by those who take away our freedom to cover and yes i say FREEDOM
I am sorry but I cannot follows this, do you mean we have a law that says women must stay at home? I ask again, suppose I say that genital mutilation is part of my religion, would you allow it or not in the name of freedom? Would you if you could force all women to cover and if so how can that be any kind of expression of freedom?
I am sorry but I cannot follows this, do you mean we have a law that says women must stay at home? I ask again, suppose I say that genital mutilation is part of my religion, would you allow it or not in the name of freedom? Would you if you could force all women to cover and if so how can that be any kind of expression of freedom?
Genital mutilation isn't putting on clothes is it? also nothing in your religion is to be followed at all, since from its basic tenets to the last ancillary subjects is completely nonsensical and irrelevant...
Do you want to work on how logic should follow from a premise?
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Those restricting their freedom are those forcing them to stay home
But WHO is forcing them to stay at home, I cannot logically link a law that says no burka in public to being interpreted as a law that says stay at home?
But WHO is forcing them to stay at home, I cannot logically link a law that says no burka in public to being interpreted as a law that says stay at home?
you' can't logically think' - I agree with that!
when someone tells you that you all we have for dinner are pigs roasted in urine... or you have the choice to go hungry, who is forcing them to go hungry in this picture? try to think about it for a while, I know it can be daunting but eventually you'll get there!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Genital mutilation isn't putting on clothes is it? also nothing in your religion is to be followed at all, since from its basic tenets to the last ancillary subjects is completely nonsensical and irrelevant... Do you want to work on how logic should follow from a premise?
Logic is not your strong point is it, the argument presented is about freedom for someone to do as they please in the name of religion. If such an argument exists it cannot be just about the burka can it?
That is an honest and adequate assessment of yourself.. thanks!
the argument presented is about freedom for someone to do as they please in the name of religion. If such an argument exists it cannot be just about the burka can it?
The topic is about Burka not turning down falafel in the name of religion..
If you don't understand the subject of the topic, then don't partake in it!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
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Debate on banning Niqaab/Burka in Britain
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