If God created unbelievers and sealed there hearts is it just that they burn in hell eternally or someone who is a good person but follow the wrong religion due to being brought up into a different culture/religion is it really there thought where that person is pit in hell eternally than someone who raped and murdered someone but was forgiven and rewarded?
I am a believer but these questions have bothered me
Last edited by Muslim Woman; 11-23-2013 at 07:21 AM.
So does God create people with closed/sealed/hardened hearts who are simply destined to lead the life of an unbeliever and suffer eternal punishment in the end?
That's a difficult thing to comprehend.
Any thoughts?
Last edited by Insaanah; 11-23-2013 at 10:17 PM.
Reason: Edited out part about the Biblical view, as answer being asked from Islamic point of view
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
So does God create people with closed/sealed/hardened hearts who are simply destined to lead the life of an unbeliever and suffer eternal punishment in the end?
No, Allah doesn't create even one single individual with a closed/sealed heart. Ha'sha! It is the unbelievers who choose and insist in unbelief. And Allah seals their hearts as a result of their acts so that they cannot poison others by disseminating what is in their corrupted hearts. To further illustrate this through the analysis of the words in the verse:
خَتَمَ اللهُ عَلٰى قُلُوبِهِمْ وَعَلٰى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلٰى اَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing. And on their eyes is a veil;
and great is the penalty they incur.
The fact that “has set a seal (khatama)” is tied to “they will not believe (lā yu’minūna)” and follows [immediately] after it is just like making the punishment the consequence of the act, as though it is saying, “Since they have corrupted their wills and not come to believe, they have been punished by having their hearts sealed and blocked up.”
The word(s) “has set a seal (khatama)” also indicate a compound metaphor, which alludes to parabolic comparisonsas a [literary] device (uslūb tamthīlī), which [in turn] signifies a proverb depicting their misguidance, for what it means is the truth being prevented from penetrating to the heart. The term ‘seal or sealing’ (al-khatm) portrays the heart as a house built by Allah (May He be exalted!) to be a treasury full of jewels. But due to the misuse of the will, it has become corrupted and has putrified, and what it contains has turned poisonous so it has been locked up and sealed, to make it shunned.
The word “Allāh:” know that the use of [the proper noun instead of the first person pronoun] signifies a turning (iltifāt) from the first to the third persons. This comprises a subtle point pertaining to the intended (bi’n-niyya) relationship of the word “Allāh” with “they will not believe (lā yu’minūna);” I mean that the implied “in Allāh”indicates the following subtle meaning: when the light of the knowledge of Allah came to them, they did not open the door of their hearts to it, so He turned away from them angrily and locked the door on them.
The use of “on (‘alā)” with the transitive verb “khatama” suggests that the verb includes the meaning of branding, as though it is saying: Allah has set a seal on their hearts, branding and marking them so the angels see them. “On(‘alā)” also suggests that it is the heart’s lofty door that is blocked up, not its lowly door that looks onto this world.
The word “their hearts (qulūbihim)” precedes hearing and sight because it is the seat of belief; and because the first evidences of the Maker are manifested from the heart’s consultation with itself and from the conscience referring to the innate disposition. For when a person consults himself, he feels an acute sense of powerlessness that drives him to seek out a point of support, and he perceives his clamouring need to fulfil his hopes and is compelled to find a source of assistance. But there is no support to be found and no help except in belief.
What is meant by the heart is the dominical subtle faculty – not the piece of flesh shaped like a pine-cone – the emotions of which are manifested in the conscience and the thoughts of which are reflected in the mind. The term heart indicates that the dominical subtle faculty is to man’s spiritual dimensions what the cone-shaped piece of flesh is to the body. For just as the physical heart is a life-machine that pumps the water of life to all the parts of the body, and if it is obstructed or ceases from activity, [life departs and] the body stiffens; so the subtle inner faculty dispenses the light of true life to all the parts of the corpus composed of man’s spiritual aspects, and his [mental] states, and hopes. And if, God forbid, the light of belief fades away, his being, with which he contends with the universe, becomes like a motionless spectre, dark in its entirety.
This topic is also related to the issue of Kadar (Destiny). You can find further information through this link.
But what if someone's simply born into a different society, has never heard of Islam, and lives a perfectly good life? I'm a Muslim, but I simply don't believe that God would send someone to hell, based on not being a Muslim. If they are good people, lead good lives, and don't harm others, he wouldn't just send them to hell for being of a different faith. He wouldn't be a loving God to do that.
I don't pretend to be an expert in Islam, or a very pious person (I'm inherently flawed, as is everyone I guess) but my heart and conscience would never allow me to believe that.
although there are a large part of them (people of the book) that would deny islam and many numbers of muslims that would also deny them.
there are of course complete arguments for there opinions.
and what they do to each other is only a reflection of there beliefs.
as for people without faith, society exists with or without it.
but imo you use the word pious and its an actual word.
islam is the only way acceptable.
it does not belong to any one group of people.
and the quran is a warning really.
I can understand your point, but I stand by what I said: I believe that God would let anyone into heaven as long as they're good people, and wouldn't punish or ostracise people just for having different beliefs (which is largely the result of living in a different society).
it seems like the more you give, the more the little things matter.
if it is not like this than im glad for the different perspective.
unfortunately the quran urged people to change there ways and not follow "society" or at the very least not follow the ways of there fathers and forefathers (immediate society).
so its probably a very complicated matter in how god judges people.
whenever i talk like this the conversation usually ends with a consensus that the world does not work on ideals.
What I mean is that there are so many different societies across the world, many of which have no contact with each other, no knowledge of Islam, their own beliefs, etc (Allah SWT himself said he had put us all into different nations, for the record). They can't all be expected, with so many different divisions, beliefs, circumstances, etc, to know and embrace Islam when many haven't even heard about it, and have been brought up in different ways. I can't believe that God would cast someone into hell because they had never heard of Islam. That would basically mean chucking the whole population of North Korea into hell, for example.
We should all be cautious before passing judgement on others.
That's my point. Christians, Jews, etc can be considered people of the book too, which is another thing which extremists disparagingly labeling all non-Muslims as "kuffar" really need to consider. *Again, this comes from a Muslim who loves people of all faiths.*
But what if someone's simply born into a different society, has never heard of Islam, and lives a perfectly good life? I'm a Muslim, but I simply don't believe that God would send someone to hell, based on not being a Muslim. If they are good people, lead good lives, and don't harm others, he wouldn't just send them to hell for being of a different faith. He wouldn't be a loving God to do that.
Assalaamu alaikum brother and welcome to Islam and to the forum.
We have to be very careful in saying what we personally believe God would/wouldn't do, based on the limited knowledge He has given us and what personally seems right to us. Rather, we should seek the advice of those knowledgable. Here is one such article which may be of help in shaa Allah (Allah willing):
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
Question: Is it sufficient on its own to say “There is no god but God” . That is, intending the second part, you ask: can someone who does not say “Muhammad is the Messenger of God” find salvation?
The answer to this is lengthy, so for now we shall only say this:
The two parts of the confession of faith cannot be separated; they prove each other, comprise each other; one cannot be without the other. Since the Messenger (Upon whom be blessings and peace) was the Seal of the Prophets and the heir of all the prophets, he is at the start of all the ways leading to God. There can be no way to reality and salvation outside his mighty highway. All the leading gnostics and verifiers of reality have said like Sa‘di Shirazi: “It is impossible, Sa‘di, to be victorious on the way of salvation, except by following Mustafa.” They also said: “All ways are closed except the highway of Muhammad.”
However, it sometimes happens that people are on the highway of Muhammad (UWBP) and within it, but are not aware of it.
And it sometimes happens that they do not know the Prophet (UWBP), but the road they have taken is part of his highway.
It happens too that because they are in a state of ecstasy or entirely immersed in contemplation or have withdrawn from the world, they do not think of the highway of Muhammad, and “There is no god but God” is sufficient for them.
Nevertheless, the most important side of the matter is this: non-acceptance is one thing, while the acceptance of non-being is another.
Ecstatics and recluses or those who have not heard or are uninformed about it, do not know the Prophet (UWBP) or they do not think of him that they might accept him. They are ignorant in that respect. They know “There is no god but God” only in respect of esoteric knowledge of Him. They may well be saved. But if those people who have heard of the Prophet (UWBP) and know his message do not affirm him, they do not recognize Almighty God. For them, the phrase “There is no god but God” on its own does not express divine unity, the affirmation of which is a means of salvation. For this is not ignorant non-acceptance, which may be excusable to a degree, it is rather the acceptance of non-being, which is denial. The person who denies Muhammad (Upon whom be blessings and peace), who with his miracles and works was the pride of the universe and glory of mankind, certainly cannot receive any light and will not recognize God.
No, Allah doesn't create even one single individual with a closed/sealed heart. It is the unbelievers who choose and insist in unbelief. And Allah seals their hearts as a result of their acts so that they cannot poison others by disseminating what is in their corrupted hearts.
Thanks for your detailed and informative reply.
I mentioned Pharaoh in my earlier post. Unfortunately that bit was removed, because it was relying on a Bible passage.
So I need to ask whether according to Islam Pharaoh had his heart hardened by God in order to prevent Moses and his people from leaving Egypt?
If I understand your answer correctly, then he term 'having one's heart sealed/hardened/closed' is not so much an act by God but an act we commit ourselves through disbelief and actions which go against God's commands?
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
r according to Islam Pharaoh had his heart hardened by God in order to prevent Moses and his people from leaving Egypt?
?
I thought you read the Quran 'Multiple times'?
Here's the answer from the Quran!
Allah: answered the supplication of Moses no more no less:
[Pickthal 10:87] And We inspired Moses and his brother, (saying): Appoint houses for your people in Egypt and make your houses oratories, and establish worship. And give good news to the believers.
وَقَالَ مُوسَىٰ رَبَّنَا إِنَّكَ آتَيْتَ فِرْعَوْنَ وَمَلَأَهُ زِينَةً وَأَمْوَالًا فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا رَبَّنَا لِيُضِلُّوا عَنْ سَبِيلِكَ ۖ رَبَّنَا اطْمِسْ عَلَىٰ أَمْوَالِهِمْ وَاشْدُدْ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ فَلَا يُؤْمِنُوا حَتَّىٰ يَرَوُا الْعَذَابَ الْأَلِيمَ {88} [Pickthal 10:88] And Moses said: Our Lord! Lo! Thou hast given Pharaoh and his chiefs splendour and riches in the life of the world, Our Lord! that they may lead men astray from Thy way. Our Lord! Destroy their riches and harden their hearts so that they believe not till they see the painful doom.
قَالَ قَدْ أُجِيبَتْ دَعْوَتُكُمَا فَاسْتَقِيمَا وَلَا تَتَّبِعَانِّ سَبِيلَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ {89} [Pickthal 10:89] He said: Your prayer is heard. Do ye twain keep to the straight path, and follow not the road of those who have no knowledge.
وَجَاوَزْنَا بِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ الْبَحْرَ فَأَتْبَعَهُمْ فِرْعَوْنُ وَجُنُودُهُ بَغْيًا وَعَدْوًا ۖ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا أَدْرَكَهُ الْغَرَقُ قَالَ آمَنْتُ أَنَّهُ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا الَّذِي آمَنَتْ بِهِ بَنُو إِسْرَائِيلَ وَأَنَا مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ {90} [Pickthal 10:90] And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no Allah save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).
آلْآنَ وَقَدْ عَصَيْتَ قَبْلُ وَكُنْتَ مِنَ الْمُفْسِدِينَ {91} [Pickthal 10:91] What! Now! When hitherto thou hast rebelled and been of the wrong-doers?
فَالْيَوْمَ نُنَجِّيكَ بِبَدَنِكَ لِتَكُونَ لِمَنْ خَلْفَكَ آيَةً ۚ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِنَ النَّاسِ عَنْ آيَاتِنَا لَغَافِلُونَ {92} [Pickthal 10:92] But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee. Lo! most of mankind are heedless of Our portents
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
It is the unbelievers who choose and insist in unbelief.
I think this is true in my case. I have used my own mind to think about the subject, and have come to the conclusion that I don't believe in God. It has been my choice and nobody else's.
And Allah seals their hearts as a result of their acts so that they cannot poison others by disseminating what is in their corrupted hearts.
I don't understand what this means. Surely many atheists and non-Muslims of all kinds have disseminated their beliefs?
No, I didn't read it multiple times. I have dipped in and out of it on occasions and once read it through Ramadan (three years ago I think).
Still, I prefer to rely on my more knowledgeable Muslim brothers and sisters for their understanding, knowledge and views - knowing that I will never reach their level.
Thanks for your answer. Assuming that you have posted all verses relating to Pharaoh I can see that the Qu'ran makes no direct reference to Allah hardening or sealing Pharaoh's heart.
Salaam
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
And some other scholars stating that Allāh would send them to Hellfire or Paradise based on what Allāh in his infinite knowledge knows they would have done had they been presented with the pristine message of Islām during their lifetime
So I need to ask whether according to Islam Pharaoh had his heart hardened by God in order to prevent Moses and his people from leaving Egypt?
Hi Glo,
We should make a distinction between 'creation' and 'reason'. In Islam, it is very well established that Allah is the Creator of everything, either good or evil (though 'evil' according to our perceptions). Nothing happens naturally by itself, but Allah wills and creates. However, He has given men free will so that they can choose. So, it is we who choose the right or wrong, but it is Allah who accepts our choices and creates them.
Likewise, in the case of Pharaoh, Allah creates the deed of his heart's being hardened and sealed; however, the reason behind it is but Pharaoh's wrong actions and his insistence on them. Allah doesn't seal the heart of anybody because of nothing and heeds them to the Hell-fire. Ha'sha a thousand times!
Not understanding this distinction, some Muslim fellows want us to accept some truths of the Qur'an blind-mindedly. However, this is not what Allah wants or commands us to do in His Decree. He wants us to think, contemplate, and understand. There are examples of this in so many verses. The companions would ask about anything that they didn't understand about the Qur'an to the Prophet (s.a.w.)
Last edited by Nur Student; 11-25-2013 at 03:28 PM.
Assuming that you have posted all verses relating to Pharaoh I can see that the Qu'ran makes no direct reference to Allah hardening or sealing Pharaoh's heart.
Greetings glo.
format_quote Originally Posted by جوري
[]
وَقَالَ مُوسَىٰ رَبَّنَا إِنَّكَ آتَيْتَ فِرْعَوْنَ وَمَلَأَهُ زِينَةً وَأَمْوَالًا فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا رَبَّنَا لِيُضِلُّوا عَنْ سَبِيلِكَ ۖ رَبَّنَا اطْمِسْ عَلَىٰ أَمْوَالِهِمْ وَاشْدُدْ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ فَلَا يُؤْمِنُوا حَتَّىٰ يَرَوُا الْعَذَابَ الْأَلِيمَ {88} [Pickthal 10:88] And Moses said: Our Lord! Lo! Thou hast given Pharaoh and his chiefs splendour and riches in the life of the world, Our Lord! that they may lead men astray from Thy way. Our Lord! Destroy their riches and harden their hearts so that they believe not till they see the painful doom.
قَالَ قَدْ أُجِيبَتْ دَعْوَتُكُمَا فَاسْتَقِيمَا وَلَا تَتَّبِعَانِّ سَبِيلَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ {89} [Pickthal 10:89] He said: Your prayer is heard. Do ye twain keep to the straight path, and follow not the road of those who have no knowledge.
وَجَاوَزْنَا بِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ الْبَحْرَ فَأَتْبَعَهُمْ فِرْعَوْنُ وَجُنُودُهُ بَغْيًا وَعَدْوًا ۖ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا أَدْرَكَهُ الْغَرَقُ قَالَ آمَنْتُ أَنَّهُ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا الَّذِي آمَنَتْ بِهِ بَنُو إِسْرَائِيلَ وَأَنَا مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ
The next verse, verse 89, is in this translation translated as "your prayer is heard". Other translations are:
Your supplication has been answered,(Saheeh International)
Verily, the invocation of you both is accepted, (Muhsin Khan)
Accepted is your prayer (O Moses and Aaron)! (Yusuf Ali).
Your invocation (i.e., of both Musa and Harun) has been answered (Dr Ghali)
So this means that the prayer/supplication/invocation was accepted and answered, including the hardening of Pharoah's heart, excatly as per the supplication, until he saw death in front of him and then declared he wanted to believe, when it was too late.
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
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glo liked this post
Christians, Jews, etc can be considered people of the book too, which is another thing which extremists disparagingly labeling all non-Muslims as "kuffar" really need to consider. *Again, this comes from a Muslim who loves people of all faiths.*
answered the supplication of Moses no more no less:
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