Freedom and Islam

[David Sims]

I am quoting here from the Forum Rules, rule number 15 and rule number 16.

15. Promoting Religions other than Islam. While interfaith discussions are allowed promoting another religion is not allowed on the discussion board. This discussion board was created to promote Islam, not another religion. There are many other discussion boards on the Web which you can promote your religion other than Islam.

16. No attacks against Islam in any form will be tolerated on this discussion board. This includes, but is not limited to attacks on the Qur'an, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), his family and companions, or any other prophets in Islam, or Islamic scholars, past or present. While some may complain that there is "freedom of speech" please remember this is a privately owned discussion board which was created and is maintained to serve the purpose of promoting Islam. What is allowed in speech is determined by the Admin and not the member.

From what Westerners can see, these rules are in general force as the law of the land in most Islamic countries. When an Islamic religious authority makes rules that the population must obey, the freedom to promote any other religion and the freedom to criticize Islam disappears. This is a freedom very important to Westerners, who criticize just about every idea that has ever been thought up. The freedom to criticize an idea, or to promote alternatives to an idea, is central to the surging advancement of Western civilization from 1700 to 2000. The decline of Western civilization in recent years has had many tributary causes, but the cause of these tributary causes is the rise of political correctness, of rules that say that certain ideas may not be questioned.

A country that makes any idea politically correct is not a place where people have freedom. A forum that makes any idea politically correct cannot be faithful in the pursuit of truth.

[M.I.A.]

Mate, there is a difference between law and enforcement of law.

Take a look at any number of threads here and see how tolerant the li/lb/ib guberment are.

...most threads derail into total verbal fisticuffs a few pages in.

And I guess we are quiet happy like that.

Freedom of speech vs abuse of it.. But you know the rules apparently.

Don't quote me, what I meant to say is that civil discussion and all viewpoints are often present on the forum.

Just go take a look and have a nice day.

I'm not a history expert so I have no idea what your on about.

[ardianto]

Christians and Hindus would not have objections if I promote Islam in mosque or on the street. But they would feel annoyed if I promote Islam in church, temple, or their religious schools.

This forum is like a mosque that opened for people from any belief, including those who don't believe in God. They are free to talk about their belief, as long as not in form of promotion with purpose to convert.

Every place has its own rule, buddy.

[gurufabbes]

I am quoting here from the Forum Rules, rule number 15 and rule number 16.

15. Promoting Religions other than Islam. While interfaith discussions are allowed promoting another religion is not allowed on the discussion board. This discussion board was created to promote Islam, not another religion. There are many other discussion boards on the Web which you can promote your religion other than Islam.

16. No attacks against Islam in any form will be tolerated on this discussion board. This includes, but is not limited to attacks on the Qur'an, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), his family and companions, or any other prophets in Islam, or Islamic scholars, past or present. While some may complain that there is "freedom of speech" please remember this is a privately owned discussion board which was created and is maintained to serve the purpose of promoting Islam. What is allowed in speech is determined by the Admin and not the member.

From what Westerners can see, these rules are in general force as the law of the land in most Islamic countries. When an Islamic religious authority makes rules that the population must obey, the freedom to promote any other religion and the freedom to criticize Islam disappears. This is a freedom very important to Westerners, who criticize just about every idea that has ever been thought up. The freedom to criticize an idea, or to promote alternatives to an idea, is central to the surging advancement of Western civilization from 1700 to 2000. The decline of Western civilization in recent years has had many tributary causes, but the cause of these tributary causes is the rise of political correctness, of rules that say that certain ideas may not be questioned.

A country that makes any idea politically correct is not a place where people have freedom. A forum that makes any idea politically correct cannot be faithful in the pursuit of truth.

While what you're saying is true outside of the forum, this particular forum is to promote Islam and therefore their rules are what matter most. And they have every right to that.

Given that the name of this site is the "islamicboard" with Muslim moderators, what else would one expect? There are plenty of other forums where the threshhold of free speech is perhaps higher, and anyone can go to those as well. I will be the first to let you know that I would agree with you if those rules and norms were pushed outside of this forum and the circles of the members, but here it doesn't seem out of place.

Perhaps an odd comparison, but I wouldn't expect to be able to stay on a vegan forum while dropping links to butchers with discounted veal, nor while calling vegans soft deranged animal rights extremists.

Nevertheless during my time on here, I've seen a number of users that are of very different opinions of the moderators on here and have not been ejected from the forum. So I don't have a reason yet to believe that these restrictions are unreasonable.

The question that people need to ultimately ask is, what are they on here for?
If you're a Muslim, it's obvious. If you're not, then well, you would need to make sure that your purpose on here is constructive and your manner civil and respectful, particular towards the norms of the target audience.

[The-Deist]

While what you're saying is true outside of the forum, this particular forum is to promote Islam and therefore their rules are what matter most. And they have every right to that.

Given that the name of this site is the "islamicboard" with Muslim moderators, what else would one expect? There are plenty of other forums where the threshhold of free speech is perhaps higher, and anyone can go to those as well. I will be the first to let you know that I would agree with you if those rules and norms were pushed outside of this forum and the circles of the members, but here it doesn't seem out of place.

Perhaps an odd comparison, but I wouldn't expect to be able to stay on a vegan forum while dropping links to butchers with discounted veal, nor while calling vegans soft deranged animal rights extremists.

Nevertheless during my time on here, I've seen a number of users that are of very different opinions of the moderators on here and have not been ejected from the forum. So I don't have a reason yet to believe that these restrictions are unreasonable.

The question that people need to ultimately ask is, what are they on here for?
If you're a Muslim, it's obvious. If you're not, then well, you would need to make sure that your purpose on here is constructive and your manner civil and respectful, particular towards the norms of the target audience.

Dat wisdom brother

[David Sims]

ardianto wrote: "Christians and Hindus would not have objections if I promote Islam in mosque or on the street. But they would feel annoyed if I promote Islam in church, temple, or their religious schools. This forum is like a mosque that opened for people from any belief, including those who don't believe in God. They are free to talk about their belief, as long as not in form of promotion with purpose to convert."

gurufabbes wrote: "While what you're saying is true outside of the forum, this particular forum is to promote Islam and therefore their rules are what matter most. And they have every right to that."

I agree with you both. I wasn't saying that the owners of this forum don't have the right to suppress speech that is inconsistent with their purpose. I was drawing a distinction between this kind of forum and, say, a philosophy forum in which the pursuit of truth is the highest purpose.

It isn’t necessarily wrong to exclude points of view on a board. If the stated purpose of a board is to glorify a particular god, race, political philosophy, or brand of consumer goods then it’s perfectly all right for the board’s owner or moderator to come along and censor posts inconsistent with the board’s mission. You can legally criticize Jesus, but you shouldn’t go into a church to do it. If you do, the preacher has the right to throw you out.

But when a board’s stated purpose is to engage in debate, for the purpose of arriving at the truth, or at a better understanding of the facts, then a priori restrictions on unpopular points of view are hypocritical attempts to “fix” the debate so that only the popular point of view can seem to win. The advocates of the unpopular point of view, will only be allowed to score small points with their lesser and more oblique arguments, while the advocates of the popular point of view can bring forth their whole array of verbiage unfettered by any fear that they will be censored.

It is well that a careful reading of the forum rules makes the forum's real nature clear. Christians and atheists who speak here should understand that they are not equal participants with the Muslims who also speak here. If a non-Muslim and a Muslim disagree about the answer to a religious question, or to a metaphysical question which Islam has treated in scripture, then the local authorities will presume that the Muslim is offering a "correction" to the non-Muslim.

[ardianto]

In this forum sometime I remind Muslims to not attack other religions. But since I am not moderator, I can't do anything other than remind.

Indeed, in forum that belong to particular religion the referee is always on the home team side. It's happen not only in Islamic forums, but also in other religions forums. Of course you cannot compare particular religious forum with philosophical forum.

I myself support interfaith discussion, including with Atheist and Agnostic. But I really not suggest interfaith debate. The purpose of discussion is to understand each other and respect each other, while purpose of debate is to defeat each other.

You are welcomed to discuss here, buddy. You can ask Muslim members if you have question about Islam, and I will ask you too if I have question about Atheism. I hope it can make us understand each other and respect each other.

[M.I.A.]

While what you're saying is true outside of the forum, this particular forum is to promote Islam and therefore their rules are what matter most. And they have every right to that.

Given that the name of this site is the "islamicboard" with Muslim moderators, what else would one expect? There are plenty of other forums where the threshhold of free speech is perhaps higher, and anyone can go to those as well. I will be the first to let you know that I would agree with you if those rules and norms were pushed outside of this forum and the circles of the members, but here it doesn't seem out of place.

Perhaps an odd comparison, but I wouldn't expect to be able to stay on a vegan forum while dropping links to butchers with discounted veal, nor while calling vegans soft deranged animal rights extremists.

Nevertheless during my time on here, I've seen a number of users that are of very different opinions of the moderators on here and have not been ejected from the forum. So I don't have a reason yet to believe that these restrictions are unreasonable.

The question that people need to ultimately ask is, what are they on here for?
If you're a Muslim, it's obvious. If you're not, then well, you would need to make sure that your purpose on here is constructive and your manner civil and respectful, particular towards the norms of the target audience.

Well I guess that is it, we are here to learn how to be the proverbial vegans in the lions den.

[Abdullahh]

I don't mean to be rude but this is an Islamic board and that's painfully obvious. We will not change, and definitely not for an atheist. If you do not like it here you do not have to be here, no-one is forcing you to be here and you are filling this place with a negative energy. Try this forum: www/atheistforums.org

[gurufabbes]

I myself support interfaith discussion, including with Atheist and Agnostic. But I really not suggest interfaith debate. The purpose of discussion is to understand each other and respect each other, while purpose of debate is to defeat each other.

I concur.

This is the first time that I've heard the distinction made.
The basis of religions are usually different texts and therefore different foundations which I think are mutually exclusive.

[ardianto]

I concur.

This is the first time that I've heard the distinction made.
The basis of religions are usually different texts and therefore different foundations which I think are mutually exclusive.

I disagree with Christian's view about Jesus (pbuh) is son of God. But can I understand if Christians have different view on this matter.

The purpose of discussion is to raise attitude which we respect each other's opinion (or each other's belief in interfaith discussion) although we do not agree with the others. Different than in debate which we have attitude that the other must agree with us.

[greenhill]

Welcome to the forum.

If the stated purpose of a board is to glorify a particular god, race, political philosophy, or brand of consumer goods then it’s perfectly all right for the board’s owner or moderator to come along and censor posts inconsistent with the board’s mission

The advocates of the unpopular point of view, will only be allowed to score small points with their lesser and more oblique arguments, while the advocates of the popular point of view can bring forth their whole array of verbiage unfettered by any fear that they will be censored.

It works both ways here. I have had several posts deleted for the content. Even talking about islamic matters, if cannot be substantiated or offers potential to create confusion, it will be moderated.

As I have said in some of my earlier posts, I joined this site for the reason of finding out more about islam from the world and weed out what is 'custom' and what is actual practice. Reading through some of the posts has indirectly and directly enhanced my understanding. Sometimes I find the reason for certain things we practice (which I took for granted) when I read replies to posts etc. For that purpose alone, for me anyway, this site has proven its worth.

Wishing you a great stay.

[sister herb]

I was drawing a distinction between this kind of forum and, say, a philosophy forum in which the pursuit of truth is the highest purpose.

This was an interesting comparison as in here too to us "the pursuit of truth is the highest purpose". We will only find the highest truth from the Islam.

[Johnathan]

I disagree with Christian's view about Jesus (pbuh) is son of God. But can I understand if Christians have different view on this matter.

Perhaps you understand that we must necessarily have a different view on the matter, since a Christian doesn't have a choice in the matter, because that is what the Gospel proclaims: blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=%22the+son+of+God%22&t=KJV#s=s _primary_0_1

On this point, it is my understanding that Muslims believe that for a Christian to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even to pray and ask in Jesus' name as we are instructed by the Gospel, is to commit the single most "heinous" and only unforgivable sin in Islam.

So by extension, wouldn't that indicate that each and every Christian throughout the last nearly 2,000 years, has lived and died in a state of committing what Muslims are taught is the only unforgivable sin?

The purpose of discussion is to raise attitude which we respect each other's opinion (or each other's belief in interfaith discussion) although we do not agree with the others. Different than in debate which we have attitude that the other must agree with us.

[Abz2000]

Perhaps you understand that we must necessarily have a different view on the matter, since a Christian doesn't have a choice in the matter, because that is what the Gospel proclaims: blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=%22the+son+of+God%22&t=KJV#s=s _primary_0_1

On this point, it is my understanding that Muslims believe that for a Christian to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even to pray and ask in Jesus' name as we are instructed by the Gospel, is to commit the single most "heinous" and only unforgivable sin in Islam.

So by extension, wouldn't that indicate that each and every Christian throughout the last nearly 2,000 years, has lived and died in a state of committing what Muslims are taught is the only unforgivable sin?

Dude, that irrelevant argument was responded to 3000 years ago.
The essence seems to have been:
God knows, He sent me to you to deliver this message NOW.
Submit and repent, Stop enslaving and*tormenting the believers, you're not God, so see sense and stop being unjust.

45.*They (Moses and Aaron) said: "Our Lord! We fear lest he hasten with insolence against us, or lest he transgress all bounds."
46.*He said: "Fear not: for I am with you: I hear and see (everything).
47.*"So go ye both to him, and say, 'Verily we are apostles sent by thy Lord: Send forth, therefore, the Children of Israel with us, and afflict them not: with a Sign, indeed, have we come from thy Lord! and peace to all who follow guidance!
48.*"'Verily it has been revealed to us that the Penalty (awaits) those who reject and turn away.'"
49.*(When this message was delivered), (Pharaoh) said: "Who, then, O Moses, is the Lord of you two?"
50.*He said: "Our Lord is He Who gave to each (created) thing its form and nature, and further, gave (it) guidance."
51.*(Pharaoh) said: "What then is the condition of previous generations?"
52.*He replied: "The knowledge of that is with my Lord, duly recorded: my Lord never errs, nor forgets,-
53.*"He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.
54.*Eat (for yourselves) and pasture your cattle: verily, in this are Signs for men endued with understanding.
55.*From the (earth) did We create you, and into it shall We return you, and from it shall We bring you out once again.
QURAN, CHAPTER 20, TA-HA

Don't you know that those of the Jews who rejected the fact that Jesus is Messiah are struck off as rejecters until they believe?

[greenhill]

Hi Jonathan,

A heinous crime? I don't think so. A tragic error, more like.

That's all we are trying to say in a nutshell. . .most of us, in the nicest possible way.

[Scimitar]

gurufabbes, there are rules to any institution, club, meeting hall, organisation etc, this place is no exception... if you don't like it - go elsewhere. It's as simple as that.

Scimi

[Abz2000]

Go where scimi?
Somewhere else where you can serve Allah in peace without being harmed and treated unjustly by the same people who caused you to leave?
Time for everyone to repent and submit to Allah, there's no fleeing from Allah even at Mars or Pluto.

[ardianto]

Perhaps you understand that we must necessarily have a different view on the matter, since a Christian doesn't have a choice in the matter, because that is what the Gospel proclaims: blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=%22the+son+of+God%22&t=KJV#s=s _primary_0_1

On this point, it is my understanding that Muslims believe that for a Christian to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even to pray and ask in Jesus' name as we are instructed by the Gospel, is to commit the single most "heinous" and only unforgivable sin in Islam.

So by extension, wouldn't that indicate that each and every Christian throughout the last nearly 2,000 years, has lived and died in a state of committing what Muslims are taught is the only unforgivable sin?

Does what Muslim believe annoy you?. I can understand if you feel annoyed. But I never feel annoyed with what the Christians believe that those who does not follow Jesus (pbuh) will go to hell.

Every religion teaches that only the believers of this religion who will go to heaven while other people outside this religion will go to hell. Then, is it a problem?.

I don't see it as a problem. My relationship with my non-Muslim friends and my Christian relatives is always good. We always respect each other belief. Yes, some people in my mother family are Protestant Christians. And they are still my relatives although they embrace other religion.

I myself studied in Catholic elementary school and educated by nuns, from Franciscan orde. And to be honest, from them I learned something that very important, religious tolerance. This is why I have great respect to the nuns, whatever other people tell about them.

Yes, there are many different view between one religion and other religions. But should these difference become the reason for conflict?. Or these difference become the base to build an understanding between believers from all religions?.

[Abz2000]

1.*Those who reject Allah and hinder from the Path of Allah,- their deeds will Allah render astray.

2.*But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord,
- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.

3.*This because those who reject Allah follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the Truth from their Lord:
Thus does Allah set forth for men their lessons by similitudes.

Surah 47. Muhammad, Verses 1-3