Hi everyone, in my conversations with many muslims I've gotten many different answers to the same questions. I thought I'd ask the questions here to see what your answers are.
I've travelled to Turkey a few times, but also have muslim friends from Syria and Palestine.
I hope this is the right section for this topic! All these questions are genuine and for research purposes! I'm not trying to offend anyone, only get answers.
1) Why do many Muslims claim the Bible has been changed? I've heard this many times, but was never given any evidence or source? Living in Dublin, its easy to go to the Chester Beatty Library and see both ancient Biblical (dating back to 90 A.D) and Quranic texts , and its clear to see that neither have been changed. The most ancient Bible texts are exactly the same as the ones, something I have seen with my own two eyes, and discovered with the help of linguistical experts. Except for some differences in spelling, the Biblical text is faithful to the original. I accept that some modern translations can deviate slightly to fit the agenda of the translators, but I'm speaking of a true and faithful translation of the Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic texts, of which there are several out there.
2)In The Quran, I read about the Final Day (Surah 33:21), but then many Muslims believe in converting the entire world to Islam without divine intervention? Which is it?
3) Sunni vs Shite - is this not the same as Catholic and Protestant? What is your view on how Allah will determine true followers?
4) Hellfire, I read about this in the Quran a lot, but many muslims have different opinions? Is there an official opinion? Do Muslims belive in Hellfire, and unbelievers and evil men being tormented there for eternity?
I have more questions, but maybe if I could start with these!
Thanks in advance for any help with these questions!
-Ivan
1) Why do many Muslims claim the Bible has been changed? I've heard this many times, but was never given any evidence or source? Living in Dublin, its easy to go to the Chester Beatty Library and see both ancient Biblical (dating back to 90 A.D) and Quranic texts , and its clear to see that neither have been changed. The most ancient Bible texts are exactly the same as the ones, something I have seen with my own two eyes, and discovered with the help of linguistical experts. Except for some differences in spelling, the Biblical text is faithful to the original. I accept that some modern translations can deviate slightly to fit the agenda of the translators, but I'm speaking of a true and faithful translation of the Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic texts, of which there are several out there.
1) If you've read the Quran , are familiar with the devious character named St Paul , the convention of Nicea and the extensive research of Ahmed deedat on this issue, you will clearly see that Christianity in its original form has been corrupted.
Your conclusion only proves your defeciency in research or consultation of wrong sources ;
2) Muslims believe in delivering the message , wether you accept it or not is not up to them. There is no compulsion in religion .
Further , believing in the last day and converting to Islam are two Seperate actions. One has no bearing on the other .
3) Shiahs are out of the fold of Islam. They don't even meet the basic of fundamentals in the Muslim faith . We judge ad per the Quran and Sunnah on this matter ......
4) Yes .... All Muslims believe in a concept of a physical hellfire wherein infidels will dwell for ever and sinful Muslims until they are purified.
There is really no difference of opinion amongst Muslims in this regard . It once again shows that your sources of obtaining information on Islam may be misleading you .
Ah ok, thanks Khalid Saifulla, interesting about Shiahs.
With regards to 4) Do you believe infidels never get out of hellfire? And for sinful Muslims, its only a purification process?
for 1) I'm well aware of the Council of Nicea, Constantine, and how mainstream Christianity has become a tool of Satan! Corrupted is an understatement. I was just more wondering in general why do many feel the actual Biblical texts have been altered when there is no evidence? What I mean by that is, we have ancient manuscripts, although none are complete, but the passages are the same as the texts today?
Is this something Ahmet Deedat considers? Are his texts available online?
As for 1), we don't (well, few of us at most) believe that there was once a true Bible that later got corrupted. What we rather tend to believe is that the Bible doesn't accurately convey the message of the major prophets Jesus, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon. We tend to believe some of it got distorted in transmission, and other things got into the Bible that weren't prophetic in origin to begin with, such as the writings of Paul.
1) Why do many Muslims claim the Bible has been changed? I've heard this many times, but was never given any evidence or source? Living in Dublin, its easy to go to the Chester Beatty Library and see both ancient Biblical (dating back to 90 A.D) and Quranic texts , and its clear to see that neither have been changed. The most ancient Bible texts are exactly the same as the ones, something I have seen with my own two eyes, and discovered with the help of linguistical experts. Except for some differences in spelling, the Biblical text is faithful to the original. I accept that some modern translations can deviate slightly to fit the agenda of the translators, but I'm speaking of a true and faithful translation of the Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic texts, of which there are several out there.
Basically, Quran, Torah, and Bible are all revelation of God, however Quran is the only one that has maintained the same language, same letters, down to the very same symbols since the day it was revealed. So imagine how if you compared an American's memorization of the Quran today to an Arab's memorization of the Quran 1400 years ago, it will be the same exact words, same spelling, same symbols, everything. However, when it comes to the bible..I remember just a few years ago actually, I was searching a verse (I can't remember which one) and there was a difference between two versions of the Bible. There are various versions of the Bible, and they're not all the same. They may have the same "message" but at the end of the day they have been written and rewritten and lost in translation, so some teachings in it are invalid. There are many similarities between the Bible, Torah, and Quran in regards to the teachings, but the Quran is undoubtedly the only text preserved as the Word of God.
2)In The Quran, I read about the Final Day (Surah 33:21), but then many Muslims believe in converting the entire world to Islam without divine intervention? Which is it?
I don't necessarily understand your question..Muslims can't convert anyone who doesn't want to be a Muslim. Even if I threatened your life, your "conversion" would not really be a conversion. So I've never heard the concept that many muslims believe in converting the entire world. Islam is growing quickly, but that's not by anyone converting anyone else except the person who wants to convert himself.
3) Sunni vs Shite - is this not the same as Catholic and Protestant? What is your view on how Allah will determine true followers?
The Quran and Sunnah detail the definitions of a true Muslim, so anyone who goes beyond that fold is not Muslim or not following it correctly.
4) Hellfire, I read about this in the Quran a lot, but many muslims have different opinions? Is there an official opinion? Do Muslims belive in Hellfire, and unbelievers and evil men being tormented there for eternity?
Muslims believe in hellfire, and there are actually detailed descriptions about it (as well as paradise). Even Muslims are sent to hell for their sins, so it's not just a place for the unbelievers and evil-doers. And yes there are certain sins that if committed doom one to hell in eternity such as polytheism and disbelief.
As for 1), we don't (well, few of us at most) believe that there was once a true Bible that later got corrupted. What we rather tend to believe is that the Bible doesn't accurately convey the message of the major prophets Jesus, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon. We tend to believe some of it got distorted in transmission, and other things got into the Bible that weren't prophetic in origin to begin with, such as the writings of Paul.
When you say 'got distorted in transmission', do you mean from God to the Prophet? Or from those copying the Bible?
I know some Muslims have a problem with Paul, but putting that aside, the other 39 Bible writers, do you feel they never were inspired or what they wrote down was lost?
The reason I ask is what I mentioned before, about the Chester Beatty Library in Dublin, where we have ancient manuscripts.
This papyrus containing part of John's Gospel for example
When this is translated correctly, its the same as in Bibles today? So thats why I'm just trying to figure out, do you discredit the 'entire' Bible, or only parts?
Basically, Quran, Torah, and Bible are all revelation of God, however Quran is the only one that has maintained the same language, same letters, down to the very same symbols since the day it was revealed.
Muslims believe in hellfire, and there are actually detailed descriptions about it (as well as paradise). Even Muslims are sent to hell for their sins, so it's not just a place for the unbelievers and evil-doers. And yes there are certain sins that if committed doom one to hell in eternity such as polytheism and disbelief.
My problem with this is, that no one speaks ancient Hebrew anymore, the language has changed. The same with English, things used to be - Where goest thou? Instead where are you going?
So for me its not problem at all that there are more modern translations then the King James for example. As long as the message is accurately translated, there shouldn't be a problem no?
I can say in english I'm hungry, or in Spanish Tengo Hambre. Means the same thing!
I have 2 Qurans translated into English, and they say different things for the same verses sometimes! But its basically the same meaning, and when there is an actual change, then I can research that word or verse to see which is correct.
But the oldest Bible manuscripts that we have are almost 'exactly' the same as a modern copy in Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic, except for minor spelling changes, which doesn't bother me either as the spelling of words changes over time as well!
Do Muslims have any evidence that they rely upon for their claims the Bible isn't the word of Allah anymore? (or never was!)
My other question about hellfire is this. Is eternity a fair amount of time - (countless Billions upon Billions of years) for someone who was misled by Satan and didn't worship Allah in their short lifespan (20-80 years)?
I've come to learn through Bible study that its not a Bible teaching, its just something the Catholic church (among others) preached, and demanded that relatives pay to get their family our of Hellfire.
But the Bible says that the wages sin pays is Death, and in Ecclesiastes 9:5, that when you die, you cease to exist. Those who did good will be ressurected to life after the Final Day (or when God removes Satan and wicked people), and will live in Paradise, but those who died won't be punished for eternity.
To put it another way, God has built justice into each of us, in that we have a conscience, so we know for example if someone does something wrong, they get punished, but the punishment has to fit the wrong. In that it can't be too severe, or over the top.
So if a child breaks a bowl, you don't break their legs, you might take away their toys for a while or something.
For a human to not worship God in their short lifespan, when religion has done so much damage, and its understandable why many turn away from Religion (in Ireland, the abuse of Catholic children by the priests for example has hurt many older people and they stopped believing), on top of the fact that Satan is misleading people - is it right for that person who lives to lets say 80 years old, to be punished for 800 Billion years? But the thing about eternity is, after 800 Billion years, they're punishment hasn't even started yet, because its ETERNITY!
So add another 800 Billion years of hellfire. And still, they have used up 0% of eternity, so add another 800 Trillion years.
Is this fair? Is this a teaching from God? Is it a punishment that fits the crime? Does it not make more sense like what the Bible says - The wages sin pays is Death? (I'm not being inflammatory here by the way, I'm just trying to talk some ideas out because I think sometimes many people are too quick to state beliefs without fully realizing their implications)
Allah is all-Just He won't wrong anyone, and when the disbelievers enter Hell, they will admit their sin, that they were wrong, and that it is fully just for Allah to put them in Hell etc.
So no, Allah is not unjust. Allah will never wrong His slaves.
As for the Quran, it was revealed in Arabic, and you won't find in 2 copies of the Quran, in Arabic, any deviance, etc.
My problem with this is, that no one speaks ancient Hebrew anymore, the language has changed. The same with English, things used to be - Where goest thou? Instead where are you going?
So for me its not problem at all that there are more modern translations then the King James for example. As long as the message is accurately translated, there shouldn't be a problem no?
As historians-- there is no original of the Bible, you have older versions, but there is no original to say ok this is exactly the same as this one, and from what you do have, it's still variant in translation. So if the oldest Bible has some misinterpretations, then every Bible thereafter will also have misinterpretations regardless. If every single Bible on the face of this earth was destroyed, how will it be rewritten if there was no original to refer back to? Likewise, if the same happened to the Quran, it will be rewritten the same exact way by multiple people and probably within a day because it's memorized in the hearts of many the same exact way--in it's original form, in one language. There wouldn't be a problem to have modern translations if you also had the original to refer back to. For example, you used the translation of the quran which when translated has differences between versions. As Muslims, it's our duty to learn the language of the Quran in Arabic, but the translation is there as a crutch to understand the meanings, but in no way is it considered as accurate as in Arabic--reason being is that one word can have a variety of meanings, translated from language to language it can change incredibly. And to be clear, Muslims accept the Bible as the word of God (and the Torah) but we believe that some lies have been added to it, that its original truth has been distorted, so what we believe in the Bible to be true is only what coincides with what is in the Quran. The proof of it's distortion is with the bible itself as well..there's a lot of verses that don't match up.
As Muslims our reference is the Quran. It states that there is distortion in the Bible and the Torah. And if we're going to believe in the Abrahamic faiths, one of them has to be the correct one? While they are alike in so many ways, there are major differences such as the concept of original sin, the trinity, etc.
format_quote Originally Posted by iqmdublin
My other question about hellfire is this. Is eternity a fair amount of time - (countless Billions upon Billions of years) for someone who was misled by Satan and didn't worship Allah in their short lifespan (20-80 years)?
God is the Most Just. Even with you not being a Muslim I don't have the right to tell you that you're going to hell, because I don't know where you'll end up. The only one who knows what goes on in the depths of your heart, your worship, and your destiny is God alone. One good deed can change everything. My duty as a Muslim is to be a reminder to others about the right path because like you said, we all have this innate consciousness of what's right or what's wrong, but with all the influences in this world, we can fall astray. We may also have differing opinions on what's considered right or wrong. In Islam laws are put in place to universalize what's right or wrong, so that we don't turn to society for these answers which can be variant.
Islam teaches us that life is short and we are created solely to worship Allah. That message is very clear to us, so if what we do on this earth determines our eternal life, then we should do our best to do good in this world and follow the lifestyle that we were told to follow. If we have all the tools to do that, then I think it's fair. I mean there's no surprises when it comes to that..you reap what you sow as the saying goes.
In Islam there's also different levels of paradise, and different levels of hell...and not everyone remains in hell for eternity.
Also sin and good deeds are divided into intentions and actions, and there are specific expiations for sinning.
Some things to think about: If you intend to do something bad, do you get a sin for it? If you do something bad but never intended to, do you get a sin for it? If you do something bad causing others to sin as well (like say you created a gambling business causing people to gamble and ruin their own lives) do you get a sin for every sin you have facilitated for others to commit? What about if it were a good deed? Is it multiplied?
These are questions that Islam has answers to, I don't know if other religions are as detailed when it comes down to these specifics.
Allah is all-Just He won't wrong anyone, and when the disbelievers enter Hell, they will admit their sin, that they were wrong, and that it is fully just for Allah to put them in Hell etc.
So no, Allah is not unjust. Allah will never wrong His slaves.
As for the Quran, it was revealed in Arabic, and you won't find in 2 copies of the Quran, in Arabic, any deviance, etc.
You don't find any difference in the Biblical texts found in Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic, its only through translation there are minor changes. But this doesn't change the message?
No muslim has ever given me sound reasoning on this point, they only repeat what they've been told about the Biblical texts, which is a lie?
And as for hellfire, how is that just? 80 years for 8,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years, then start all over again.
Surely its not that our understanding of the Quran is wrong, but that the Quran itself is wrong? The Bible prophets all speak of a just and merciful God who 'doesn't desire any to be destroyed, but desires all to attain to repentance'. They dont speak of eternal punishment where their skin will grow back just to be burned again.
No human parent would ever do that to their child, how much less would God do that?
What you may percieve as good for you, may be bad for you, etc.
The Original Injill revealed to Isa AS has been lost. If you were to find it, you'll come to know that it preaches the same message as that of the Quran.
The Bible portrays God in a bad light..
and the Quran is 100% right, and the Bible has been corrupted. It speaks of idolatry, and disrespects the prophets AS. Speaks lies against them etc.
doing shirk with Allah is the highest form of disobedience and ingratitude. Though you may be blind to the severity of the crime of associating a son to God. Audhu billah.
There is Only One God, and we believe in all the messengers. You can not be more merciful than Allah. And as I said, Allah is all-just. All knowing, all-wise. You don't see the whole picture, but Allah does.
There are levels of Jannah and Jahannam. So everyone will be rewarded/punished according to what they deserve. None will be wronged.
''As historians-- there is no original of the Bible, you have older versions, but there is no original to say ok this is exactly the same as this one, and from what you do have, it's still variant in translation.''
* There is no 'Original' Quran? It was passed along by Oral Tradition? What we do have is thousands of Bible manuscripts, inspired by God, and if there is any error in one or two copies, that can be compared against all the others to identify mistakes. Some Bible writers made 'VERY MINOR' mistakes, as in misspellings, and leaving out a word, but the message of the books were never changed?
If I ask you and 99 other people to copy a document, you might make a mistake, but the other 99 others would not make the same mistake.
In order to see your mistake, we can compare the other copies and locate it. All 100 would not make the same mistake.
''As Muslims, it's our duty to learn the language of the Quran in Arabic, but the translation is there as a crutch to understand the meanings, but in no way is it considered as accurate as in Arabic--reason being is that one word can have a variety of meanings, translated from language to language it can change incredibly. And to be clear, Muslims accept the Bible as the word of God (and the Torah) but we believe that some lies have been added to it, that its original truth has been distorted, so what we believe in the Bible to be true is only what coincides with what is in the Quran. The proof of it's distortion is with the bible itself as well..there's a lot of verses that don't match up. ''
Does God not speak all languages? Can God not reach the hearts of all men regardless of where they are from? Is God limited to only one Language? Is he not strong enough to make sure that his Word is correctly translated and conveyed to us?
Why would God allow his word to be changed?
Why would God allow the writings/prophecies of FORTY Bible writers to be altered and made into falsehood?
Why would God use 1 prophet to contradict all other prophets before him?
Which verses in the Bible 'don't add up'?
Can you see why this makes no sense to me? God used prophets from ancient times to convey his word and write it down. He made sure the prophecies recorded came true, cometimes hundreds of years after they were written. He sent powerful prophets who raised the dead and performed Genuine signs.
One man comes along later then and contradicts each and every prophet, and claims everyone should listen to him and only him?
And not only that, but all people in the world now have to learn an incredibly difficult language because God isn't powerful enough to speak to them in their own language?
As Muslims our reference is the Quran. It states that there is distortion in the Bible and the Torah. And if we're going to believe in the Abrahamic faiths, one of them has to be the correct one? While they are alike in so many ways, there are major differences such as the concept of original sin, the trinity, etc.
''Islam teaches us that life is short and we are created solely to worship Allah. That message is very clear to us, so if what we do on this earth determines our eternal life, then we should do our best to do good in this world and follow the lifestyle that we were told to follow. If we have all the tools to do that, then I think it's fair. I mean there's no surprises when it comes to that..you reap what you sow as the saying goes.
These are questions that Islam has answers to, I don't know if other religions are as detailed when it comes down to these specifics. ''
The Bible gives a much more satisfying answer though?
We were created to enjoy life, but also to worship God.
If we choose to follow Satan we won't be able to continue living, and we lose our opportunity to live forever.
If we choose to follow God, we will live forever.
There is no eternal punishment or hellfire.
Satan is misleading the Earth. He will be destroyed.
To say God is so evil as to punish someone for eternity, is just twisted? He speaks himself through the 40 prophets in the Bible and says something completely different.
We each have a conscience. We have Gods justice built in to us.
Mohammed is a false prophet? He goes against the word of God, and speaks of nothing but a cold hearted, vengeful, cruel, tyranical Allah.
The God of the Bible is a God of Love?
Anyway. We should probably leave the conversation here sorry.
I came to just ask a few questions, so I won't continue the debate.
Thanks for taking the time to write back!
And I'm not intending to offend anyone, only stick up for truth.
* There is no 'Original' Quran? It was passed along by Oral Tradition? What we do have is thousands of Bible manuscripts, inspired by God, and if there is any error in one or two copies, that can be compared against all the others to identify mistakes. Some Bible writers made 'VERY MINOR' mistakes, as in misspellings, and leaving out a word, but the message of the books were never changed?
If I ask you and 99 other people to copy a document, you might make a mistake, but the other 99 others would not make the same mistake.
In order to see your mistake, we can compare the other copies and locate it. All 100 would not make the same mistake.
The Quran is the exact same even if it's passed down through "oral tradition"..which, actually, it wasn't. It was written down during the time of the prophet (pbuh) and memorized as well..and the oldest Quran is the same as today's Quran--exactly the same, as well as any other qurans in between, there are no different qurans, there's no "similar" qurans, there's no
"they all have the same message but different words" qurans...they're just identical. IF there is proof that there's an older Bible that is very different than today's Bible, what implications would it have on the whole of Christianity? It would be a huge problem, so whether there is proof that it exists or not, it would never be brought to light that easily.
Copying a Bible would cause a lot of mistakes, why? because no one has it memorized and there's different versions. If just getting the "gist" of the message is ok with you, then all power to you my friend.
format_quote Originally Posted by iqmdublin
Does God not speak all languages? Can God not reach the hearts of all men regardless of where they are from? Is God limited to only one Language? Is he not strong enough to make sure that his Word is correctly translated and conveyed to us?
Now we're getting somewhere! The difference between your logic and a Muslims, is that you weaken God. "God can't speak all languages?" of course He can, but we can't. How many languages are in the world? How often have they changed over the years? Our religion isn't just something personal, it's also a community. I can go into any country in the world, and ask a Muslim about prayer IN ARABIC and they'll know what I'm talking about, and this concept doesn't only apply to prayer. Understanding a religion in one language makes the language universal and makes larger connections with one another. There's nothing wrong with expanding our horizons and learning the language of the Quran. Instead of wanting everything to be handed to you just so you can get into paradise for free doesn't make sense. What's the purpose of life then? Why not just be born into paradise? If you want god to have that strong of a hand in our lives, then there's no such thing as CHOICE. We're wouldn't be choosing His path, and life wouldn't be a test.
format_quote Originally Posted by iqmdublin
Why would God allow his word to be changed?
Why would God allow the writings/prophecies of FORTY Bible writers to be altered and made into falsehood?
Why would God use 1 prophet to contradict all other prophets before him?
Because God wasn't done with His message. The messages of all the prophets before Muhammed (pbuh) were to guide particular tribes/groups of people, only Islam was sent down for the entirety of mankind. And unlike in Christianity, in Islam, all of the prophets had the same message so no one contradicted the other. The people just wanted to follow their desires and change the religion for their own pleasures. Christianity adopted the concept of the trinity because they didn't want to leave their Pagan traditions. I actually learned this in an Art History class, actually, but you can search the significance of halos in art and their relation to paganism.
format_quote Originally Posted by iqmdublin
Which verses in the Bible 'don't add up'?
Can you see why this makes no sense to me? God used prophets from ancient times to convey his word and write it down. He made sure the prophecies recorded came true, cometimes hundreds of years after they were written. He sent powerful prophets who raised the dead and performed Genuine signs.
One man comes along later then and contradicts each and every prophet, and claims everyone should listen to him and only him?
And not only that, but all people in the world now have to learn an incredibly difficult language because God isn't powerful enough to speak to them in their own language?
In Islam, the story is different. It's basically ok there's a tribe doing a lot of wrong things, every tribe had a different issues. So Allah sends a messenger from among them to help guide them. As the population of the world grew, and different events took place, people get misguided again and commit atrocities, and messengers come in with the same message (to believe in the oneness of Allah) to fix the problems in these societies. The last message is the one for all of mankind and it was the same message as the previous ones, except this time it was preserved because the messaging has been completed. IF you want to learn more about it, you can study Islam more in depth than you already think you know (it seems you don't know much to be honest).
In regards to the contradictions in the Bible, you can do a search here or on Google..or just read the Bible as a critic so that you can understand what I mean...I personally don't have time to go through it and mark everything that didn't make sense.
format_quote Originally Posted by iqmdublin
The Bible gives a much more satisfying answer though?
We were created to enjoy life, but also to worship God.
If we choose to follow Satan we won't be able to continue living, and we lose our opportunity to live forever.
If we choose to follow God, we will live forever.
There is no eternal punishment or hellfire.
Satan is misleading the Earth. He will be destroyed.
To say God is so evil as to punish someone for eternity, is just twisted? He speaks himself through the 40 prophets in the Bible and says something completely different.
We each have a conscience. We have Gods justice built in to us.
Mohammed is a false prophet? He goes against the word of God, and speaks of nothing but a cold hearted, vengeful, cruel, tyranical Allah.
The God of the Bible is a God of Love?
Anyway. We should probably leave the conversation here sorry.
I came to just ask a few questions, so I won't continue the debate.
Thanks for taking the time to write back!
And I'm not intending to offend anyone, only stick up for truth.
A more satisfying answer?? Do you even know how Islam answers these questions to say that?
Ok, so according to your beliefs where does Hitler go?? Eternal paradise? How about rapists that do it for pleasure? Athiests who completely reject God and insult him..where do they go?? What about murderers? Politicians who wage wars for no reason? People who live in gluttony while their neighbors starve?? If someone doesn't get baptized and dies before that, what happens to them? Are they carrying the sins of everyone? Sorry but nothing about your concept of justice makes any sense.
Do you even read the Bible? It seems you only picked one verse, decided to live your life by it and call yourself a Christian..which is fine if thats how you choose to live your life, but don't act like you understand Christianity or Islam.
If you want to keep asking questions or debating, it's no problem lol. Just be respectful about it. there's nothing wrong with inquiring and asking questions, its how we learn, right?
1) Every Prophet AS came with the same message.
a) They all preached the same message - the message of Tawheed (Belief in the Oneness of Allah (SWT) )
2) Every book revealed by Allah was only intended for a specified term (The Quran is for all mankind tho)
3) The People corrupted the original revelation from Allah.
a) The Torah got corrupted, and the message was distorted, therefore Isa AS was sent with the Injill.
b) The Injill got corrupted, therefore The Prophet SAW was sent to preach the true message/religion.
4) therefore The Quran came to confirm the previous revelations of Allah, which every Prophet preached.
The Bible contradicts itself and the true message of Tawheed. It has polytheistic elements etc. I honestly ask of you to study Islam in depth. Islam came as a Mercy to mankind. To those who believe it is a mercy, to those who disbelieve, it is a warning, to come back to Tawheed. The true message.
The Bible got corrupt, and it has God's words and man's word mixed, etc.
The criteria for something to be from Allah, is that it has 0 contradictions, mistakes etc. 100% perfect, and it can not be replicated. The only book that can't be imitated is the Quran.
''The Quran is the exact same even if it's passed down through "oral tradition"..which, actually, it wasn't. '' - ok, first of all its universally accepted it was written down years later. But leaving aside that point, it was written in ancient arabic, which most muslims dont even understand today, let alone the rest of the world. So there is a need for translation.
''IF there is proof that there's an older Bible that is very different than today's Bible, what implications would it have on the whole of Christianity? It would be a huge problem, so whether there is proof that it exists or not, it would never be brought to light that easily.'' - There are thousands of manuscripts containing the exact same message as the Bible today. Its not even questioned, except by muslims wishing to write off the Bible?
''Copying a Bible would cause a lot of mistakes, why? because no one has it memorized and there's different versions. If just getting the "gist" of the message is ok with you, then all power to you my friend. '' - It was a profession in ancient times to copy God's word (research the Masoretes), they didn't just count the words but counted the letters to make sure there was accurate copying of the original texts. This doesn't leave us with a 'gist', but incredibly accurate. The only difference between manuscripts that are thousands of years old and copies from today are minor spelling errors, such as coloured/colored. This is a common misconception among Muslims who haven't researched this point properly. I would fully accept that a 50% accutate copy isn't reliable, but when the copies are 99.9% accurate it is completely reliable.
''There's nothing wrong with expanding our horizons and learning the language of the Quran. Instead of wanting everything to be handed to you just so you can get into paradise for free doesn't make sense.'' - Most Muslims don't even understand ancient Arabic? This is crazy logic? I don't speak ancient Hebrew. I speak English. So whats the problem with scholars translating the book for me, which I then have to read and apply. Its hard work in todays world to stick to what God asks, its not a walk in the park.
''What's the purpose of life then? Why not just be born into paradise? If you want god to have that strong of a hand in our lives, then there's no such thing as CHOICE. We're wouldn't be choosing His path, and life wouldn't be a test. '' - The purpose of life is to serve God and life a good life, enjoy his creations. How is having God's word in a language I can understand a bad thing? Does God wish us all to be scholars and study ancient Hebrew or ancient Arabic? Think about the practicality of that. We have accurate copies, we have accurate translations, BUT we have to spend years of study in order to read the original language even though it'll never reach our heart and it will always be a struggle to comprehend whats its saying?
''Because God wasn't done with His message. The messages of all the prophets before Muhammed (pbuh) were to guide particular tribes/groups of people, only Islam was sent down for the entirety of mankind. And unlike in Christianity, in Islam, all of the prophets had the same message so no one contradicted the other. The people just wanted to follow their desires and change the religion for their own pleasures.'' - The message was complete in the first century? There was no need for anything additional? in fact in Galatians 1:8 it mentions that if any angel or anyone else is to declare something beyond what was already revealed - let him be accursed. Mohammed comes along 550 years later and re-writes everything? From Adam all the way to Jesus, Mohammed re-wrote his own version of history.
''Christianity adopted the concept of the trinity because they didn't want to leave their Pagan traditions. I actually learned this in an Art History class, actually, but you can search the significance of halos in art and their relation to paganism. '' - Mainstream false Christianity adopted the Trinity even though its not a Bible teaching. And sure, its roots are completely Pagan. Adherents to the Bibles message can clearly see that its not a Bible teaching and avoid it. Christians and Bible students have nothing to do with Catholicism for example or any other group that twists the word of God.
''In Islam, the story is different. It's basically ok there's a tribe doing a lot of wrong things, every tribe had a different issues. So Allah sends a messenger from among them to help guide them. As the population of the world grew, and different events took place, people get misguided again and commit atrocities, and messengers come in with the same message (to believe in the oneness of Allah) to fix the problems in these societies. The last message is the one for all of mankind and it was the same message as the previous ones, except this time it was preserved because the messaging has been completed. - This makes no sense at all? Sure, societies change, but God doesn't. His message was altered by Mohammed who claimed to be the Last Prophet, and who contradicted all the other Prophets before him?
''Ok, so according to your beliefs where does Hitler go?? Eternal paradise? How about rapists that do it for pleasure? Athiests who completely reject God and insult him..where do they go?? What about murderers? Politicians who wage wars for no reason? People who live in gluttony while their neighbors starve?? If someone doesn't get baptized and dies before that, what happens to them? Are they carrying the sins of everyone? Sorry but nothing about your concept of justice makes any sense. '' - As far as I understand God justice, it would seem that sinners of all varieties are going to be left in non-existance. The Bible speaks of a resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous (those who didn't serve God but maybe never had an opportunity), but in relation to wicked people, they receive no resurrection, and miss out on eternal life. So for me, I serve God and hope to be in paradise. My 3 brothers don't. I don't believe in God's justice they will be tortured for countless billions of years, burned alive for eternity, I have reason to believe they simply won't exist while those who serve God get to enjoy enternity.
If you can imagine someone being burned with fire for a minute, its pretty horrible. The idea of putting anyone in a fireplace or throwing them into a fire pit to die, its just such a horrible way to kill someone. But the idea that God would not only put his disobedient children in a fire, but keep them there suffering - not just the 30 seconds it would normally take to die, but countless billions of years.....its a pretty screwed up idea of Gods justice, and does not portray a God of love, who is fair and balanced.
''Do you even read the Bible? It seems you only picked one verse, decided to live your life by it and call yourself a Christian..which is fine if thats how you choose to live your life, but don't act like you understand Christianity or Islam.
If you want to keep asking questions or debating, it's no problem lol. Just be respectful about it. there's nothing wrong with inquiring and asking questions, its how we learn, right? '' - Have been studying the Bible my entire life actually, and have only recently finished reading the Quran. I've been studying Islam for a few years now to try to make sense of it. Thats why I'm here, just asking a few questions, not with the idea of insulting anybody, just to see how Muslims react to different questions.
It bothers me that very few have taken the time to investigate the Bible's authenticity, and instead lazily claim its been changed and Mohammed is the key to eternal life. Have you ever studied the Bible?
The criteria for something to be from Allah, is that it has 0 contradictions, mistakes etc. 100% perfect, and it can not be replicated. The only book that can't be imitated is the Quran.
- Which contradictons do you mean? and sure, for a book to be from God you would want it to be accurate - The Quran isn't? Claims the earth is flat, and theres hundreds of contradictions which are excused as abbrogations, even though we don't know which one comes first or second.
The Bible accurately describes the earth as a sphere when others thought it was flat or held up by animals. The Bible speaks of the earth hanging upon nothing, not on someones shoulders or on pillars. And when it comes to science, its completely accurate?
I have complete faith in God, thanks. Does that post show respect to someone raising genuine issues and views?
Seems to me you missed all my posts and went straight for an insult
Sorry for not replying sooner, I didn't know you replied!
format_quote Originally Posted by iqmdublin
''The Quran is the exact same even if it's passed down through "oral tradition"..which, actually, it wasn't. '' - ok, first of all its universally accepted it was written down years later. But leaving aside that point, it was written in ancient arabic, which most muslims dont even understand today, let alone the rest of the world. So there is a need for translation.
''IF there is proof that there's an older Bible that is very different than today's Bible, what implications would it have on the whole of Christianity? It would be a huge problem, so whether there is proof that it exists or not, it would never be brought to light that easily.'' - There are thousands of manuscripts containing the exact same message as the Bible today. Its not even questioned, except by muslims wishing to write off the Bible?
''Copying a Bible would cause a lot of mistakes, why? because no one has it memorized and there's different versions. If just getting the "gist" of the message is ok with you, then all power to you my friend. '' - It was a profession in ancient times to copy God's word (research the Masoretes), they didn't just count the words but counted the letters to make sure there was accurate copying of the original texts. This doesn't leave us with a 'gist', but incredibly accurate. The only difference between manuscripts that are thousands of years old and copies from today are minor spelling errors, such as coloured/colored. This is a common misconception among Muslims who haven't researched this point properly. I would fully accept that a 50% accutate copy isn't reliable, but when the copies are 99.9% accurate it is completely reliable.
Ancient Arabic?? The Arabic used in the Quran is actually considered the universal Arabic, so it's WIDELY used today.
Since the Quran has been memorized by young and old and people of various ethnicities and backgrounds, I'd say that even if it was never written down, it would still be alive and preserved. You would think that through oral tradition words could have been forgotten or replaced, but the method of the memorization preserves it in a remarkable way, of course Allah has made the Quran like this. It was memorized and written down during the time of the Prophet pbuh, but it wasn't compiled and put together til after his death.
There's 3 abrahamic faiths, the things that don't match up with the Quran in Christianity and Judaism is what we consider altered. If the original of the Bible was destroyed or was never preserved, and instead the version of today was the one that replaced it, then there's not going to be much evidence that it's been altered except when we compare our faiths. There are some similarities but there are huge differences, and it's those differences that show that there's been alterations done.
format_quote Originally Posted by iqmdublin
''What's the purpose of life then? Why not just be born into paradise? If you want god to have that strong of a hand in our lives, then there's no such thing as CHOICE. We're wouldn't be choosing His path, and life wouldn't be a test. '' - The purpose of life is to serve God and life a good life, enjoy his creations. How is having God's word in a language I can understand a bad thing? Does God wish us all to be scholars and study ancient Hebrew or ancient Arabic? Think about the practicality of that. We have accurate copies, we have accurate translations, BUT we have to spend years of study in order to read the original language even though it'll never reach our heart and it will always be a struggle to comprehend whats its saying?
There's no feeling like having the Quran (which we consider God's words) memorized by heart. I don't have to reach for the Quran to recite God's exact words. I can be anywhere at all and the way the words are put together are soothing to the soul. I don't know if that's something you can understand, but translations aren't God's word, they are other people's words. It's like Shakespeare..the modern translation of Shakespeare may mean the same thing, but what makes Shakespeare Shakespeare is the way he put words together, his poetry, the words he used. You don't get the same vibe reading the modern translation or "notes" as you would when you go back and read the actual way it was written in its original form. The Quran is kinda like that simply put. The brain comprehends it in a completely different way than the heart. It's not just a logical connection, it's an emotional one as well. It activates different senses. So yes we should study our religion in depth, because if we don't then we're only followers by name?
format_quote Originally Posted by iqmdublin
'Because God wasn't done with His message. The messages of all the prophets before Muhammed (pbuh) were to guide particular tribes/groups of people, only Islam was sent down for the entirety of mankind. And unlike in Christianity, in Islam, all of the prophets had the same message so no one contradicted the other. The people just wanted to follow their desires and change the religion for their own pleasures.'' - The message was complete in the first century? There was no need for anything additional? in fact in Galatians 1:8 it mentions that if any angel or anyone else is to declare something beyond what was already revealed - let him be accursed. Mohammed comes along 550 years later and re-writes everything? From Adam all the way to Jesus, Mohammed re-wrote his own version of history.
''Christianity adopted the concept of the trinity because they didn't want to leave their Pagan traditions. I actually learned this in an Art History class, actually, but you can search the significance of halos in art and their relation to paganism. '' - Mainstream false Christianity adopted the Trinity even though its not a Bible teaching. And sure, its roots are completely Pagan. Adherents to the Bibles message can clearly see that its not a Bible teaching and avoid it. Christians and Bible students have nothing to do with Catholicism for example or any other group that twists the word of God.
''In Islam, the story is different. It's basically ok there's a tribe doing a lot of wrong things, every tribe had a different issues. So Allah sends a messenger from among them to help guide them. As the population of the world grew, and different events took place, people get misguided again and commit atrocities, and messengers come in with the same message (to believe in the oneness of Allah) to fix the problems in these societies. The last message is the one for all of mankind and it was the same message as the previous ones, except this time it was preserved because the messaging has been completed. - This makes no sense at all? Sure, societies change, but God doesn't. His message was altered by Mohammed who claimed to be the Last Prophet, and who contradicted all the other Prophets before him?
Angels in Islam do not have choice like humans, so they can't disobey God, they're not created to have that ability at all. Humans on the other hand have desires and differences and will change things, so HUMANS changed God's word for their own pleasure..choosing what to keep and leave out. Nothing was rewritten differently, the message was always the same from Adam til Muhammed, which is the message of monotheism, and Muhammed's message does not contradict the messages of the prophets before him. Allah preserved the message of Islam as the final message, so that's why there hasn't been any prophet since Muhammed pbuh and also that's why it hasn't changed like the scriptures before.
It's interesting that you don't believe in what you call the "mainstream Christianity." I'd love to hear more about what you believe and why they're considered wrong.
format_quote Originally Posted by iqmdublin
''Ok, so according to your beliefs where does Hitler go?? Eternal paradise? How about rapists that do it for pleasure? Athiests who completely reject God and insult him..where do they go?? What about murderers? Politicians who wage wars for no reason? People who live in gluttony while their neighbors starve?? If someone doesn't get baptized and dies before that, what happens to them? Are they carrying the sins of everyone? Sorry but nothing about your concept of justice makes any sense. '' - As far as I understand God justice, it would seem that sinners of all varieties are going to be left in non-existance. The Bible speaks of a resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous (those who didn't serve God but maybe never had an opportunity), but in relation to wicked people, they receive no resurrection, and miss out on eternal life. So for me, I serve God and hope to be in paradise. My 3 brothers don't. I don't believe in God's justice they will be tortured for countless billions of years, burned alive for eternity, I have reason to believe they simply won't exist while those who serve God get to enjoy enternity.
If you can imagine someone being burned with fire for a minute, its pretty horrible. The idea of putting anyone in a fireplace or throwing them into a fire pit to die, its just such a horrible way to kill someone. But the idea that God would not only put his disobedient children in a fire, but keep them there suffering - not just the 30 seconds it would normally take to die, but countless billions of years.....its a pretty screwed up idea of Gods justice, and does not portray a God of love, who is fair and balanced.
If you want to keep asking questions or debating, it's no problem lol. Just be respectful about it. there's nothing wrong with inquiring and asking questions, its how we learn, right? '' - Have been studying the Bible my entire life actually, and have only recently finished reading the Quran. I've been studying Islam for a few years now to try to make sense of it. Thats why I'm here, just asking a few questions, not with the idea of insulting anybody, just to see how Muslims react to different questions.
It bothers me that very few have taken the time to investigate the Bible's authenticity, and instead lazily claim its been changed and Mohammed is the key to eternal life. Have you ever studied the Bible?
So a wrong doer can commit a lot of attrocities his entire life, basically making Earth his paradise, and you're saying the only punishment for him is nonexistance? Why would he even care about what he did if he doesn't believe that he will exist or suffer if he's already had all his fun? That's not justice.
I know it's difficult to think about your own family going to Hell because they don't believe in the same as what you believe in, but aren't you sugarcoating it? Matthew 25:46 speaks of eternal punishment, so in Christianity there is punishment for sins. Unless you believe otherwise, in which case tell me more, but that's what it says in the bible.
As Muslims we believe in hellfire and punishment, and we have to do everything we can to spread the message and help guide our brothers and sisters. God gave us rules and he sent us a prophet to show us how to live, and he gives us blessings everyday, so to reject all of that and slander him as so many people do, I think He will be very Just in the afterlife because he knows what's in their hearts and their deeds more than any other human. If you loved God, wouldn't you trust Him to be Just when punishing the wrong doers? To think that your brothers or anyone for that matter doesn't deserve something, you're only speaking through your emotions and what you see, but God sees more than you and I and so therefore no one will get anything less than they deserve.
I read the Bible a while ago, and when I'd ask questions about it (eg. the concept of original sin) no one really had clear answers or could answer them in a sufficient and logical way. Since you believe in a different version of christianity (nonmainstream) it will be nice to hear more about what you follow, and I wouldn't mind learning more about the differences between your beliefs and theirs.
format_quote Originally Posted by iqmdublin
The criteria for something to be from Allah, is that it has 0 contradictions, mistakes etc. 100% perfect, and it can not be replicated. The only book that can't be imitated is the Quran.
- Which contradictons do you mean? and sure, for a book to be from God you would want it to be accurate - The Quran isn't? Claims the earth is flat, and theres hundreds of contradictions which are excused as abbrogations, even though we don't know which one comes first or second.
The Bible accurately describes the earth as a sphere when others thought it was flat or held up by animals. The Bible speaks of the earth hanging upon nothing, not on someones shoulders or on pillars. And when it comes to science, its completely accurate?
If you're referring to the verse which says that the Earth is spread out like a carpet, then it doesn't contradict that the Earth is round. When I look at the earth it doesn't look round it looks flat and there's a vanishing point just like if you were to look at a laid out carpet. There could be more to that verse than we know, but there's nothing in the Quran that contradicts scientific evidence. Actually as more scientific discoveries are made, the Quran has confirmed them, such as that ants communicate with one another through sound when for the longest time scientest believed that ants communicated through scent, and the barrier between salt water and sweet water, and the pegs underneath mountains, etc.
Didn't the church burn people back in the day for claiming the Earth was round?
I'd like to know what scientific evidences you are referring to which are ruled out in the Quran, and which are accurate in the Bible.
Last edited by *charisma*; 05-21-2016 at 11:10 AM.
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
Muslim Woman liked this post
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks