Tolerance

[GARY]

I was going to post this in the thread on homosexuality, but the thread has been closed, and it is just as well because it would have been off-topic anyway. It has more to do with tolerance/intolerance anyway. I'll just copy/paste it here;

When I started this thread, I wanted to examine two points about the muslim position on homosexuality. What muslims think 'makes' a person gay, and what the level of tolerance of gays is.
In regards to the point about tolerance in particular. I wanted to directly compare it to what I have observed muslims say about islam being a religion of peace and tolerance.

tolerance :1a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something
2 : disinclined to interfere with others' ways or opinions

Clearly, punishing someone for doing something that does not directly harm others, by the above definition is not tolerant. Don't get me wrong, I am not sticking up for the gay lifestyle. But I have no right to condemn it either. Who am I to judge? Am I to join forces with the others in my community and punish the minority that are different like this, thhe ones that I don't understand and fear "could potentially" corrupt others in the community? Should I join forces with those then that would seek out the other small minorities that are different, and they don't understand, and "could potentially" harm others in the community? Minorities like muslims? Should they be punished for being different than us? According to the majority religion where I live, not following Christ is a major sin. Should the minority muslims be punished for what the majority views as this sin? Should we be intolerant of these people that have such different beliefs and practices than the rest of us? Should we be intolerant of the gays that are so different than the rest of us in our community?

I say all this as a point. I have no problem with strong convictions. If muslims feel that these type of things are so sinful, that they cannot be tolerated, then so be it. But for muslims that hold these views, the claim of tolerance is unfounded. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you are tolerant, or you are not.

[Umar001]

Peace be upon those who follow guidance. Ameen.

I will just say this,

You said

Who am I to judge?

Muslims don't believe in humans judging what is best for themselves rather laws from G-d. So it is not upto a Muslim to say 'well this law seems rather crude, let's change it'.

Secondly, tolerance, even by the definition given is something Islamic law is, but as always, something that everyone, including law, is, but only upto a point. Who decides how tolerant Islam is, G-d.

[GARY]

Peace be upon those who follow guidance. Ameen.

I will just say this,

You said Muslims don't believe in humans judging what is best for themselves rather laws from G-d. So it is not upto a Muslim to say 'well this law seems rather crude, let's change it'.

Secondly, tolerance, even by the definition given is something Islamic law is, but as always, something that everyone, including law, is, but only upto a point. Who decides how tolerant Islam is, G-d.

I would say it is better to just drop the claim of tolerance, as clearly it is not true.

[Umar001]

Hi Gary,

I would say it is better to just drop the claim of tolerance, as clearly it is not true.

Again, if you ask someone, "Sir, are you a tolerant person" and they reply "Indeed I jolly well am" and then you slap them and then in turn slap you back does this mean they are intolerant? With regards to that they are, the person does not tolerate being slapped, but with regards to maybe, putting up with someone having a bad habit, they may be very tolerant.

Being tolerant does not mean to tolerate in every matter, if this was the case noone would be tolerant.

Eesa.

[Malaikah]

Don't get me wrong, I am not sticking up for the gay lifestyle. But I have no right to condemn it either. Who am I to judge? Am I to join forces with the others in my community and punish the minority that are different like this, thhe ones that I don't understand and fear "could potentially" corrupt others in the community?

Right. YOU cant judge. But we can. Why? Because God already told us it is a sin. therefore from the Muslim perspective homosexuality is not allowed, not because Muslims felt like making it that way, but because God said so.

Minorities like muslims? Should they be punished for being different than us? According to the majority religion where I live, not following Christ is a major sin.

Are you not aware that christians would have the right to practise their religion in an Islamic state?

Should the minority muslims be punished for what the majority views as this sin?

The fact that they are Muslims means that they too have no choice but to believe that homosexuality is a sin! Being Muslim means they must follow Islamic law, and the law is that homosexuality is not allowed. Not only that but it is a duty upon all Muslims to enjoin what is good and to forbid what is evil, to the best of their ability.

It is not for the believer, man or women, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed into a plain error.
[al-ahzab:36]

You cant just pick and choose the parts of Islam you want to follow and ignore others. It just doesnt work that way.

[GARY]

Right. YOU cant judge. But we can. Why? Because God already told us it is a sin. therefore from the Muslim perspective homosexuality is not allowed, not because Muslims felt like making it that way, but because God said so.



Are you not aware that christians would have the right to practise their religion in an Islamic state?



The fact that they are Muslims means that they too have no choice but to believe that homosexuality is a sin! Being Muslim means they must follow Islamic law, and the law is that homosexuality is not allowed. Not only that but it is a duty upon all Muslims to enjoin what is good and to forbid what is evil, to the best of their ability.

It is not for the believer, man or women, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed into a plain error.
[al-ahzab:36]

You cant just pick and choose the parts of Islam you want to follow and ignore others. It just doesnt work that way.

I have no problem with any of what you said, I don't disagree with any of it. but it simply does not address the discrepancy with the claim of tolerance and the actual practice.

[Umar001]

Hi,

I have no problem with any of what you said, I don't disagree with any of it. but it simply does not address the discrepancy with the claim of tolerance and the actual practice.

Maybe next time you should ask the person, 'does Islam tolerate homosexuality' or 'does Islam tolerate rape' or 'does Islam tolerate murder' and so on.

[Malaikah]

I have no problem with any of what you said, I don't disagree with any of it. but it simply does not address the discrepancy with the claim of tolerance and the actual practice.

Yes is does! There can be no tolerance of sinning!

If the sin is done in public, then its big trouble for the person, because the authorities deal with it.

If it is in private, then the people who know about it gave to warn the person and do what they can help guide them to the right path.

There is no tolerance of sins in Islam! This would be hypocrisy as we would be allowing our fellow Muslims to sin and not doing anything about it, and therefore secure themselves a seat in the hell-fire, instead of helping them to be better Muslims and attain paradise!

Tolerance comes in when its isnt something that is already determined and fixed by Islamic law.

[GARY]

Yes is does! There can be no tolerance of sinning!

Clearly you are missing the point. Muslims claim to be tolerant, but are not.
Tolerant of what? Other muslims? People that live and behave the way that you are comfortable with? That's not tolerance.

[Umar001]

Hi once again,

Clearly you are missing the point. Muslims claim to be tolerant, but are not.
Tolerant of what? Other muslims? People that live and behave the way that you are comfortable with? That's not tolerance.

You seem like a smart man, so I am trying to understand how you would make such mistakes.

You see, just because someone or something is not tolerant in all matters, would it deem the person or the system totally intolerable?

You seem to hold the view that because Islam prescribes death to openly comited acts of homosexuality, that the religion is void of tolerance, rather, it is nature that some things are tolerated and somethings are not.

Islam tolerates with people who do not share the same believes, or even beliefs that are totally shunned by Muslims, such as Shirk.

To quote an article:

This tolerance manifests itself very clearly in the conduct of the Prophet, in his dealings with the people of the book, whether Christians or Jews. The Prophet used to visit them, treat them kindly and with respect, console their sick and deal with them in terms of "live and let live."

Ibn Ishaq in his Sirah (biography of the Prophet) stated: 'When the delegation of Najrani Christians came to the Prophet at Madinah, they entered his mosque in the afternoon to meet him. It was their prayer time, so they began to perform their prayer in the mosque. Some Muslims were about to prevent them from doing so, but the Prophet, upon whom be peace, said, "Let them pray.", So they faced eastward and performed their prayer.'

Based on the preceding incident, Ibn al-Qayyim, a mujtahid scholar, put up a sign in front of the mosque reading "Admission granted to people of the book that the people of the book could perform their prayers in the presence of Muslims was evidently clear to him.

Funny enough the Article is named, A Unique Tolerance and can be found here

Another article states:

The Qur'an says: "God forbids you not, with regards to those who fight you not for [your] faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for God loveth those who are just." (Qur'an, 60:8)

It is one function of Islamic law to protect the privileged status of minorities, and this is why non-Muslim places of worship have flourished all over the Islamic world.

History provides many examples of Muslim tolerance towards other faiths: when the caliph Omar entered Jerusalem in the year 634, Islam granted freedom of worship to all religious communities in the city.

Islamic law also permits non-Muslim minorities to set up their own courts, which implement family laws drawn up by the minorities themselves.

When the caliph Omar took Jerusalem from the Byzantines, he insisted on entering the city with only a small number of his companions. Proclaiming to the inhabitants that their lives and property were safe, and that their places of worship would never be taken from them, he asked the Christian patriarch Sophronius to accompany him on a visit to all the holy places.

The Patriarch invited him to pray in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, but he preferred to pray outside its gates, saying that if he accepted, later generations of Muslims might use his action as an excuse to turn it into a mosque.

And this article is again appropiatly named Does Islam Tolerate Other Beliefs

Furthermore, if you look at the direct teachings of the Prophet you'd see tolerance:

Tolerance
Once the Prophet was seated at some place in Madinah, along with his Companions. During this time a funeral procession passed by. On seeing this, the Prophet stood up. One of his companions remarked that the funeral was that of a Jew. The Prophet replied, “Was he not a human being?” (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim, Sunan An-Nasâ'&#238

A disbelieving Bedouin urinated in the mosque, and the people rushed to beat him. Allah's Apostle ordered them to leave him alone, let him finish and pour water over the place where he has passed urine. The Prophet then explained to the Bedouin calmly, "This is a place of worship, in it is the worship of God and the reading of Qur'an." After the Bedouin had left, the Prophet then said to his companions, " You have been sent to make things easy (for the people) and you have not been sent to make things difficult for them." (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)

This from an Article named The Profound Teachings of Prophet Muhammad found here

If you ask, does Islam tolerate every single thing and act under the sun, I doubt it does, and I challange anyone to find me a system or person which tolerates everything and anything. Many a people would described themselves as tolerant, but would they tolerate the killing of their children for no reason, I doubt it.

[aamirsaab]

Muslims claim to be tolerant, but are not.

Oooo look mommy, a sweeping statement!

Tolerant of what? Other muslims? People that live and behave the way that you are comfortable with? That's not tolerance.

Actually, most muslims I know are tolerant of everything. Here's an example: I hate chavs, chavs hate me. We can live in harmony, with a great big fence, from my house, upto their door, that way we won't be harmed no more.

Ok, here's a better example: There are plenty of people and actions that I dislike (drunken chavs down my street, pimps, white people who act like they are from the ghetto with a name like Bob etc), but it doesn't mean I'm going to pack my bags and leave or start being anti-social. No, instead, I accept that people are different and I get on with my life. That is tolerance.

If you really want to talk about a lack of tolerance, look at the amount of intollerance to muslims (the veil stuff, the fact that muslim students are being spied on etc) and the intollerance of religion (banning of religious symbols etc).

[GARY]

You see, just because someone or something is not tolerant in all matters, would it deem the person or the system totally intolerable?

You seem to hold the view that because Islam prescribes death to openly comited acts of homosexuality, that the religion is void of tolerance, rather, it is nature that some things are tolerated and somethings are not.

If you ask, does Islam tolerate every single thing and act under the sun, I doubt it does, and I challange anyone to find me a system or person which tolerates everything and anything. Many a people would described themselves as tolerant, but would they tolerate the killing of their children for no reason, I doubt it.

Excellent explanation, now we are getting somewhere.

So, we have established that from the muslim perspective, and to a lesser degree, from a practical standpoint, that islam teaches reasonable tolerance.

So, the next natural progression in this discussion is, why do you suppose that so many are so intolerant?

[GARY]

Oooo look mommy, a sweeping statement!

LOL! No need to get emotional, we are just having a discussion here. IsaAbdullah and I seem to have the ability to have frank discussion without getting upset at each other. It is quite beneficial actually. I can see how it would be provocative to someone that just came upon the conversation.
I warn you, in order to provoke some serious thinking in discussion, I may say more things that may shock or upset you. Perhaps you should just ignore my posts.

If you really want to talk about a lack of tolerance, look at the amount of intollerance to muslims (the veil stuff, the fact that muslim students are being spied on etc) and the intollerance of religion (banning of religious symbols etc).

You know, this little bit of thumb sucking is really getting old (sorry, some of that shocking stuff I mentioned). Really, the old victim routine has really run it's course, it's time for some new material. You know what, lot's of different people experience discrimination on a daily basis, get over it. It's the people that waste time sucking their thumbs about it that are truly harming themselves.

[Malaikah]

So, the next natural progression in this discussion is, why do you suppose that so many are so intolerant?

Intolerant of what exactly? You might need to be a bit more specific.

[aamirsaab]

I warn you, in order to provoke some serious thinking in discussion, I may say more things that may shock or upset you. Perhaps you should just ignore my posts

Believe you me, it takes more than a few snidey remarks to get me crying like a baby - try hitting me with a baseball-bat to the face...actually, on second thought, don't do that. Besides, I'm all for a discussion, provided it is actually a discussion and not a point-scoring game.

You know, this little bit of thumb sucking is really getting old (sorry, some of that shocking stuff I mentioned). Really, the old victim routine has really run it's course, it's time for some new material.

You're bored of current events that quickly? I'm beginning to doubt your attention span.

You know what, lot's of different people experience discrimination on a daily basis, get over it.

Yes but I did get over it. A long time ago. That doesn't mean, however, I don't get ticked off, just like when certain muslims are intollerant of you, you get ticked off.

It's the people that waste time sucking their thumbs about it that are truly harming themselves.

I'm no thumb sucker, I was making a point.

So, the next natural progression in this discussion is, why do you suppose that so many are so intolerant?

Because they're just angry. Angry at the fact that all this crap is happening (globally and locally) and angry at themselves for not being able to do anything about it.

Additionally, the main areas of intollerance seem to be prevalent in the older generations; those that see change or difference as a bad thing (this mindset is also prevalent in certain younger groups of society, both muslim and non-muslim).

Intollerance is a human attribute that has existed for some time, it just manifests itself in different ways. It's why racism still exists and will always exist.

[GARY]

Intolerant of what exactly? You might need to be a bit more specific.

Well, of each other for one. Not only Sunni killing Shia and viceversa, but muslims killing muslims for many other differences in thinking or belief.

[GARY]

Excellent post aamirsaab.
I suppose the victim routine bores me because so many groups have latched onto it and milked it. Been there myself.
Thanks for the honest answers.

[aamirsaab]

Excellent post aamirsaab.

Well, I do try.

I suppose the victim routine bores me because so many groups have latched onto it and milked it. Been there myself.

It's different when you're the victim (bleedin' secondary school, why'd you have to suck so much @$$!). But, I agree with you that victim groups have been milked, this however doesnt mean justification is given to be intollerant to another group (this is not an accusation, merely a point in general)

Thanks for the honest answers.

No problem.

[Muezzin]

So, the next natural progression in this discussion is, why do you suppose that so many are so intolerant?

Vanity and corruption. We're all of us only human and so are all susceptible to prejudice and intolerance, be we Muslim, Christian or Jewish. Doesn't make it right of course, it's just bigots are something everyone has to deal with, whatever system of belief they claim to follow.

[GARY]

Vanity and corruption. We're all of us only human and so are all susceptible to prejudice and intolerance, be we Muslim, Christian or Jewish. Doesn't make it right of course, it's just bigots are something everyone has to deal with, whatever system of belief they claim to follow.

True. Excellent reply.