Mohammed's and Jesus's claims that they were God/Allah or heard God/Allah, are unsubstantiated.
Someone claimed to have read an Islamic word in a Kiwi fruit once, years ago. When you look at the clouds you see shapes, it's just imagination.
One test would be to get two people who hear God, keep them seperate, and see if they corroborate each other's claims. You would have to be VERY careful to check for hearing devices, or transmitters.
The rooms could be shielded for conventional radio signals. If they did corroborate, (A MIRACLE), then I would look for someother means as to how they communicated.
Mohammed's and Jesus's claims that they were God/Allah or heard God/Allah, are unsubstantiated.
Someone claimed to have read an Islamic word in a Kiwi fruit once, years ago. When you look at the clouds you see shapes, it's just imagination.
One test would be to get two people who hear God, keep them seperate, and see if they corroborate each other's claims. You would have to be VERY careful to check for hearing devices, or transmitters.
The rooms could be shielded for conventional radio signals. If they did corroborate, (A MIRACLE), then I would look for someother means as to how they communicated.
Well what if they did not both speak right? Would it mean they are both wrong no, one could be right and the other wrong or both wrong and so forth.
The core seems to be whether it is possible that what Muslims claim is true, and whether it is more than possible and actually totally right.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
This brings up a good point though. Non-religious people are not convinced of the validity of other religions because the followers of those religions only provide their own, biased proofs that their religions are right. It's like:
Bob: Hey, I don't agree with you there, mate.
John: Well, you have to agree with me.
Bob: Why?
John: Because I'm right.
Bob: What makes you think that?
John: I do.
Bob: So you're right because... you say you're right?
John: Right.
See what I mean? On the other hand, you can get sceptics who are just as narrow-mindedly dogmatic.
John: Hey, it's raining.
Bob: No it isn't.
John: Yes it is. I can see it outside.
Bob: I can't.
John: But you're hiding under the table, setting a mouse trap.
Bob: So? I'd still be able to hear it.
John: You're wearing your iPod!
Bob: What?
John: Never mind.
Bob: Heh. Admit it. I'm right, you're wrong. If it was raining, I'd be able to see it, feel it and hear it. I can't, therefore it's not raining. Okay?
John:... It's still raining.
Bob: And we're all being presided over by an intergalactic spaghetti monster.
If they did corroborate, (A MIRACLE), then I would look for someother means as to how they communicated.
The height of your openmindness is astounding. Good thing you have determined the integrity of the results before the experiment.
You create your own scenario where what you yourself describe as "A MIRACLE" occurs, and still you would refuse to believe it. Skeptism is one thing, but you are NOT a skeptic. You are a dyed-in-the-wool believer in nothing.
Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come cheer hank with us."
Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to cheer him?"
John: "If you cheer hank, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the snot out of you."
Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"
John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you cheer."
Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."
Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little cheer?"
Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."
John: "Then come cheer hank with us."
Me: "Do you cheer hank often?"
Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."
Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"
John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."
Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"
Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the snot out of you."
Me: "Do you know anyone who cheered Hank, left town, and got the million dollars?"
John: "My mother cheered for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."
Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"
John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."
Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"
Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."
Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"
John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"
Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."
John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't cheer hank He'll kick the snot out of you."
Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."
Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."
Me: "Then how do you cheer?"
John: "Sometimes we just wave our arms, and think of him. Other times we cheer Karl and he passes it on."
Me: "Who's Karl?"
Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about cheering hank. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."
Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to cheer him, and that Hank would reward you?"
John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."
From the Desk of Karl Cheer hank and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
Use alcohol in moderation.
Kick the snot out of people who aren't like you.
Eat right.
Hank dictated this list Himself.
The moon is made of green cheese.
Everything Hank says is right.
Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
Don't use alcohol.
Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
Cheer hank or He'll kick the snot out of you.
Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."
Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."
Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."
John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."
Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"
Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."
Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the snot out of people just because they're different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."
John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"
Mary: She blushes.
John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."
Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"
John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."
Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"
Mary: She looks positively stricken.
John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"
Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears.” I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."
John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."
Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."
Mary: She faints.
John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the snot out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll cheer hank for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."
With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.
Last edited by barney; 06-15-2007 at 04:18 PM.
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis has one of my favorite arguments in favor of belief. I won't go to deep into it here, as this is an Islamic board. Lewis first point in the book is that a God of some kind must exist. He looks at the standard code of morality that nearly every culture in existence as subscribed to in some form. This he sees as proof of the supernatural, we all have an instinct which moves us away from our instinct towards self preservation and pushes us to do right even if it is not to our benefit. This universal standard of morality can't come from human beings, or else everything would merely be a matter of our own perspective.
I think that's a pretty good argument, but you'd have to have read the book to really get what Lewis was trying to say. I think that there is proof, logical, historical and supernatural that supports my religion, but you won't find absolute proof. The problem for many atheist/agnostics is that, like me during my atheist days, they look for absolute proof before they have any belief at all. I began to believe a little before being really convinced of the evidence. My study enhanced my faith, and my faith has enhanced my study of religion.
So can you be a skeptic? Of course! We have been granted free will, nothing will force you to believe. I would merely ask that you not dismiss all evidence contrary to your beliefs. (skepticism is a form of belief for many people)
August, a mere question, I find it within the realms of Christians I have spoken to that they use the world around them and so forth to derive their belief in God, and then forget their logic or views and have just faith without reason in Christianity.
Like step one believeing in God, they get to that belief by contemplating and using their mind.
Then step two, they seem to just pick christianity without the same contemplation and use of mind but rather emotions and personal feelings.
Not all but alot of those I came across.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
Then step two, they seem to just pick christianity without the same contemplation and use of mind but rather emotions and personal feelings.
That happens with a lot of religions. That's the danger of religious belief, the willingness to base theological decisions on your emotions. My Catholicism came about because after step one of believing in God, I next decided that Christianity was the most rational and logical monotheistic religion, then I studied the Catholic Church and realized that only it had the whole truth. I came to this due to study. I have a lot of reasons why I feel that Islam is wrong, but I don't think I should go into them right now.
That happens with a lot of religions. That's the danger of religious belief, the willingness to base theological decisions on your emotions. My Catholicism came about because after step one of believing in God, I next decided that Christianity was the most rational and logical monotheistic religion, then I studied the Catholic Church and realized that only it had the whole truth. I came to this due to study. I have a lot of reasons why I feel that Islam is wrong, but I don't think I should go into them right now.
Now I'm a skeptic. Not in the same sense that the original poster is, but I am a skeptic that any of us human beings, even if in possession of perfect revelation, have the whole truth. Our very humanness keeps us from being able to fully or clearly perceive even that portion which has been revealed to us, and I think that once in heaven we will find that there is more revelation yet to come. So, none of us have the whole truth nor should we claim to have it.
That happens with a lot of religions. That's the danger of religious belief, the willingness to base theological decisions on your emotions. My Catholicism came about because after step one of believing in God, I next decided that Christianity was the most rational and logical monotheistic religion, then I studied the Catholic Church and realized that only it had the whole truth. I came to this due to study. I have a lot of reasons why I feel that Islam is wrong, but I don't think I should go into them right now.
Well you see this is the first time, I have heard someone say this, I have met very diverse Christians from ones who condem using your 'carnal' five sense to others who don't.
Would be interesting to see how you derived such a view.
Maybe a different thread would be more appropiate.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
Now I'm a skeptic. Not in the same sense that the original poster is, but I am a skeptic that any of us human beings, even if in possession of perfect revelation, have the whole truth. Our very humanness keeps us from being able to fully or clearly perceive even that portion which has been revealed to us, and I think that once in heaven we will find that there is more revelation yet to come. So, none of us have the whole truth nor should we claim to have it.
When I talk about the whole truth, I am using the term in terms of what we as humans can know. If you aren't Catholic, I understand, but this isn't the place to discuss denominational differences.
in reply to the very funny agnostic argument by barney, if hank doesnt own the town then someone must right?
Absolutley.
It's my assertion that we should direct our thoughts and appreciation towards this guy/gal/thing, and occassionally say thanks to it.
We should also not muck everything up for each other whilst we are in town, nor waste the time we are here cheering.
Mayby Hank likes being cheered. Mayby he's not that fussed.
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
When I talk about the whole truth, I am using the term in terms of what we as humans can know. If you aren't Catholic, I understand, but this isn't the place to discuss denominational differences.
Since I was a Catholic for 40+ years, I know exact ally what you mean.
You mean the same thing that every religion means.
I'm right you’re wrong. We have the perfect religion of god and every one else is false.
And I can prove it.
Just interested Wilbs, thats a long time in the club to lose faith. If it's OK, I'd be interested in knowing what was the tipping point that made you lose faith.
If thats personal, thats fine. I'm just interested.
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
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