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Ibn Kathir and Other Scholars on Tawassul through The Prophet! (saws)

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    Ibn Kathir and Other Scholars on Tawassul through The Prophet! (saws) (OP)


    I request the Mods to please allow the discussion to take place, both sides should be allowed to express their views especially when a question regarding the Issue was asked.

    Brother Ahmad provided a Quote from Al-Maghrib forum which is supposed to be a Neutral forum.

    Quote from Yasir Qadhi:


    Also, as I said, some scholars of the past have indeed allowed tawassul thru the status of the Prophet salla Allahu alahyi wa sallam, but the proof for allowing an act is not based on the statements of scholars, but rather on textual evidence. And as we explained in class, there is no authentic, explicit evidence allowing this type of tawassul.

    Lastly, it is always amazing how the people of innovation passionately defend their beliefs, at the expense of acts from the Sunnah. As we mentioned in class, there are so many types of tawassul that are permissible to do - why leave these types, which are clearly sanctioned by our beloved Rasool, and concentrate on the more controversial ones?

    No one loves the Prophet salla Allahu alayhi wa sallam more than those who follow his Sunnah - that is why we follow it in the first place! Had he told us about this type of tawassul, we would have been the first people to do it.
    Quote from Ahmad

    3. Taking the occupants of graves as intercessors, or supplicating them directly is an act of major Shirk because supplication is a form of worship and directing it to other than Allah (swt ) is an act of Shirk.
    I looked through Tafsir Ibn Kathir and I did not find in what was mentioned by brother SunniStudent.
    وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا


    يَقُول تَعَالَى " وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُول إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ " أَيْ فُرِضَتْ طَاعَته عَلَى مَنْ أُرْسِلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَقَوْله " بِإِذْنِ اللَّه " قَالَ مُجَاهِد : أَيْ لَا يُطِيع أَحَد إِلَّا بِإِذْنِي يَعْنِي لَا يُطِيعهُ إِلَّا مَنْ وَفَّقْته لِذَلِكَ قَوْله " وَلَقَدْ صَدَقَكُمْ اللَّه وَعْده إِذْ تَحُسُّونَهُمْ بِإِذْنِهِ " أَيْ عَنْ أَمْره وَقَدَره وَمَشِيئَته وَتَسْلِيطه إِيَّاكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَقَوْله " وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسهمْ " الْآيَة يُرْشِد تَعَالَى الْعُصَاة وَالْمُذْنِبِينَ إِذَا وَقَعَ مِنْهُمْ الْخَطَأ وَالْعِصْيَان أَنْ يَأْتُوا إِلَى الرَّسُول صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَيَسْتَغْفِرُوا اللَّه عِنْده وَيَسْأَلُوهُ أَنْ يَسْتَغْفِر لَهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ إِذَا فَعَلُوا ذَلِكَ تَابَ اللَّه عَلَيْهِمْ وَرَحِمَهُمْ وَغَفَرَ لَهُمْ وَلِهَذَا قَالَ " لَوَجَدُوا اللَّه تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا " وَقَدْ ذَكَرَ جَمَاعَة مِنْهُمْ الشَّيْخ أَبُو مَنْصُور الصَّبَّاغ فِي كِتَابه الشَّامِل الْحِكَايَة الْمَشْهُورَة عَنْ الْعُتْبِيّ قَالَ : كُنْت جَالِسًا عِنْد قَبْر النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَجَاءَ أَعْرَابِيّ فَقَالَ : السَّلَام عَلَيْك يَا رَسُول اللَّه سَمِعْت اللَّه يَقُول " وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسهمْ جَاءُوك فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّه وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمْ الرَّسُول لَوَجَدُوا اللَّه تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا " وَقَدْ جِئْتُك مُسْتَغْفِرًا لِذَنْبِي مُسْتَشْفِعًا بِك إِلَى رَبِّي ثُمَّ أَنْشَأَ يَقُول : يَا خَيْر مَنْ دُفِنَتْ بِالْقَاعِ أَعْظُمه فَطَابَ مِنْ طِيبهنَّ الْقَاع وَالْأَكَم نَفْسِي الْفِدَاء لِقَبْرٍ أَنْتَ سَاكِنه فِيهِ الْعَفَاف وَفِيهِ الْجُود وَالْكَرَم ثُمَّ اِنْصَرَفَ الْأَعْرَابِيّ فَغَلَبَتْنِي عَيْنِي فَرَأَيْت النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَآله وَسَلَّمَ فِي النَّوْم فَقَالَ : يَا عُتْبِيّ الْحَقْ الْأَعْرَابِيّ فَبَشِّرْهُ أَنَّ اللَّه قَدْ غَفَرَ لَهُ " .

    The reason Brother Ahmad cannot find this Incident in Ibn Kathirs Tafsir, and I presume he looked at the translation, is because the the incident was omitted from the translation, now why would they do such a thing, well because they must have believed this is promoting shirk, now the Question arises did not Ibn Kathir think that by including this Incident in his Tafsir commentating on an Ayah which tells us to go to the prophet, that he would be promoting Shirk?

    Do not try and deny this exists in Ibn Kathirs Tafsir, it is in any Arabic version [or any un edit Arabic version] and i have given the full Arabic text above.
    Sidi Yasir said that Scholars of the Past said Tawassul through the status of the Prophet was permissible, what he should have accepted was Scholars of the past believed it was permissible for Tawassul through the Prophet, meaning Tawassul by requesting the Prophet [Peace be upon him] at his grave to supplicate to Allah on our behalf.

    As is evident from the Incident of Utbi i posted above and those that narrated it which I will mention below.

    Now those that do this practice get condemned of Committing Shirk, But those that endorsed this practice by narrating this Incident and thus making it well known without stating that this incident is an example of Shirk do not get condemned.

    The following Scholars have cited this Incident; I have given the full references of where each Scholar has mentioned this Incident in my previous post 28 of the thread linked below.

    http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...-haraam-2.html

    Imam Nawawi,

    Ibn Jama`a,

    Ibn `Aqil,

    Ibn Qudama,

    al-Qurtubi,

    Samhudi

    Dahlan

    Ibn Kathir,

    Abu al-Faraj ibn Qudama,

    al-Bahuti al-Hanbali,

    Taqi al-Din al-Subki

    Ibn al-Jawzi

    al-Bayhaqi

    Ibn `Asakir

    Ibn Hajar al-Haytami,

    Ibn al-Najjar,

    The least that those that practice this practice can expect is that those that condemn them also have the courage to speak up and condemn these Scholars.

    Brother Ahmad gave this Quote saying it was related to the Issue, yet it was not as Tawassul by the status of the Prophet and Tawassul through the Prophet are completely different Issues.

    Now the Question arises is there anything in the Quran or Sunnah that proves this is Shirk?

    According to Brother Ahmad it is Shirk, I await to see how this is Shirk.
    It is true that our Aqeedah is not based on what the Scholars views where, but at least condemn these Scholars as promoting Shirk if you feel that way, and also provide you evidences to how you can make such a claim.

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    Re: Ibn Kathir and Other Scholars on Tawassul through The Prophet! (saws)

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    I am sure we have been through this before, what exactly constitutes 'Dua'?

    If I ask you "brother do dua for me", is that request a Dua in itself? The Obvious answers is NO, why not?, so If I go to the grave of the Prophet Muhammad [Peace be upon him] with the intention that he can hear me and ask him to do dua for me, how does it constitute a Dua?

    I think the only way we are going to get anywhere is if we focus on such small issues, so I would like you to give a response to this.

    I await your response!
    we have already proven the big issue so I guess this is the only thing left.

    well. So if we say "oh brother make du'a for me" we are seeking worship and nearness to Allah through the righteousness of the brother who is asked whcih is one of the permissible types of waseela.

    So asking for a du'a does not constitue du'a UNLESS the form of asking is in the matter that the one asking beleives (itiqaadu bil kalbi) that the mere asking of that individual will bring about the success and aid that the one asking is looking for by the mere action of asking such individual, then such a one has transformed their non du'a into du'a.

    One of them is an attempt. meaning any way or form, to seek a blessing or salvation, seeking anything with regards to deen, if it is asked or requested, constitues dua.

    That is why the Lord of the universe told, no, commanded those who say they beleive that "if you ask, then ask Him"

    secondly, what constitues as anothr transformation o the non du'a into dua is the very clear state of affairs between asking the righteous during the state of being alive as was authenticated and practiced by the shaba and proved through the orthodoxy of Muslims scholars throughout the eras, verys the exact opposite of this of the person being in the barzaakh, where there is no islami textual proof nor implementation of the sahaba nor other than them with regard to asking, since what is connected to this type of asking is the issue of "intermediation" which is no connected to in the first type of the permissible waseela.

    So while they being alive in the barsakh is not the issue, as no one who has a firm authentic aqeedah could ever beleive that the muslimeen, I mean the real muslimeen who followed the aqeedah of the salaf, and the mujaahideen and the awliyyah, all of them, are not dead, however from conclusive proofs we understand throughout the majority of the ulema of ahlu-sunnah that they
    1. Dont hear (there is som khilaaf, however the stronger proofs and arguments of ahlu-sunnah wal jama'ah surrounds the fact that they do not hear with the slightest exception of he prophet hearing our salams to him)
    2. they dont see
    3. are either living their enjoyment in the barzaakh by the angels or through the torcher of the two angels, whom these two affairs have them enveloped from even remotely having anything from this dunya to reach them
    4. are ignorant of the affairs that are going on after they left the earth
    i do not have my references with me as Im acting on memory, but there are pillars of d'ua.

    so there is no conceivable logic in any shape or form where one would compare asking someone who is alive to make du'a for him and asking someone who is in the barzaakh to make du'a for him.

    asalamu alaikum warahmatullah
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    Re: Ibn Kathir and Other Scholars on Tawassul through The Prophet! (saws)



    If anyone has fallen into any doubts reading some posts in this thread, Insha'Allah this will clear your doubts:

    http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ng-doubts.html
    http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...gin-shirk.html
    Ibn Kathir and Other Scholars on Tawassul through The Prophet! (saws)

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    "It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl
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    Re: Ibn Kathir and Other Scholars on Tawassul through The Prophet! (saws)

    I can see that there are alot of posts missing from this thread. It was sooo many pages long. What happened and why?
    Ibn Kathir and Other Scholars on Tawassul through The Prophet! (saws)

    A person with personal hatred in the heart will argue, however the one who questions his sincerity will reason.
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    Re: Ibn Kathir and Other Scholars on Tawassul through The Prophet! (saws)



    The thread was cleaned up. For further clarrification, please PM Muhammad.
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    Re: Ibn Kathir and Other Scholars on Tawassul through The Prophet! (saws)

    Assalamu alaikum wr wb

    here is another good link:

    All about Istighatha, Istishfa', and Tawassul, etc...
    Ibn Kathir and Other Scholars on Tawassul through The Prophet! (saws)

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    Re: Ibn Kathir and Other Scholars on Tawassul through The Prophet! (saws)

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Ibraheem View Post
    I can see that there are alot of posts missing from this thread. It was sooo many pages long. What happened and why?
    Was intresting reading the edited version of this thread five years on.

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    Re: Ibn Kathir and Other Scholars on Tawassul through The Prophet! (saws)

    format_quote Originally Posted by Sunni Student View Post
    Was intresting reading the edited version of this thread five years on.

    could be because of the reform of the site allahul-alim

    one more thing I forgot to add long long time ago in the beginning is that what we have now in todays world which is the english translation of Ibn katheer is NOT the direct translation from Ibn katheer

    One of my teachers, who was the chief editor of the project, the project was a translation of the work of the Imaam of Hadeeth Safi-ur-Rahmaan al-Mubarakfuri in which he authored called "al-Misbaah al-Muneer Fi Tahdheeb Tafseer ibn Katheer". My teacher, being a student of the shaykh, sought to translate this work, and that is exactly what he did. However, because Darussalam is a "business" organization and not exactly in the business of the distribution of knowledge but rather for the accruence of wealth, then in order to generate more money, they marketed the translation AS the translation of Tafsir ibn Kathir. They wouldn't have made as much money if they sold it as "Misbha al-Muneer" because nobody except for students of knowledge know of this book. From a business standpoint, I can understand the strategy, but as a small slave of the servant of our Lord and in the pursuit of the knowledge He has allowed to remain here, i am as well opposed to it.

    THUS, what many people who have problems with traditionalist Islam and the traditionalist of ahlu-sunnah, they find fault with the translation simply because they do not understand that it is not a translation of Ibn katheer's work in reality, but that of the abridgment of a hadeeth scholar ON the tafseer that Ibn Katheer produced. Not factoring this has caused a major ruckus in the circles of heterodox groups against the ahlu-sunnah.

    asalamu alaikum
    Ibn Kathir and Other Scholars on Tawassul through The Prophet! (saws)

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