By Emily Buchanan BBC world affairs correspondent Saudi women will be served only by female staff in lingerie shops Continue reading the main storyRelated Stories
A law allowing only women to work in lingerie shops in Saudi Arabia is coming into force.
Campaigners hope this will end decades of awkwardness in the Islamic kingdom where women have always been served by male shop assistants.
The heated issue of the total lack of female shop workers in Saudi Arabia has simmered for years.
Many Saudi women say they have felt particularly uncomfortable buying their lingerie from men.
Female campaigners recently increased the pressure for change through a Facebook campaign and a boycott of lingerie stores.
Now King Abdullah's royal decree finally comes into effect, banning male staff from selling female underwear.
"It's about time, it's been a long struggle and the authorities have finally come to their senses," says Radio Jeddah journalist Samar Fatany.
She says she, and any woman who could afford to, would often shop abroad rather than face the embarrassment of giving her underwear size over the counter to a man.
The campaign has gained extra momentum from the increasing number of young women who want to enter the workplace.
The Saudi women who can work are usually the educated elite who do professional jobs in medicine or government.
The new law could potentially create up to 40,000 jobs for ordinary Saudi women who have hitherto had little or no access to employment.
But it also means that male clerks, most of whom are foreign workers, will be out of a job.
It is not far short of a social revolution being pushed through in the teeth of fierce opposition from the kingdom's top clerics.
They do not want to see an increase in the number of women working outside the home.
The kingdom's Grand Mufti, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, has warned shop owners that employing women is a "crime and prohibited by Islamic sharia law".
"There is already a growing tension between liberals and the religious conservatives in the country and this issue could provoke opposition from the religious police," says Abeer Mishkhas is a columnist for the Saudi paper Asharq al-Awsat.
The Ministry of Labour will be posting observers in shopping centres to make sure the new shop assistants do not get harassed in their first weeks of work.
The ban on male staff in lingerie departments is due to be extended to cosmetics shops from July.
In Islam the burden of providing falls upon the man so I think when there's not enough jobs to go round for everyone, men should be given priority over women for jobs, unless the woman is happy to forfeit her right to be provided for
I agree that the man should work and provide for his family. However, I disagree men should be given priority over women for jobs. The person that should get the job should be the most qualified.
Because the man requires the job/salary in order to get married so he can provide for his family, but what would the woman require the salary for? is she required to support a family financially? that's the logic behind it.
Not all women can get married due to variety of reasons. Some need more time while others cannot seem to find the right husband. During that time, they need to make a living to meet their financial commitments. She would be required to support herself and a family.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Men and women should both be allowed to work. Women cannot join the military or become the leader of the country. Those are my restrictions and are supported by Islamic scholars.
Men must work, except if they are suffering from an illness, disability and so on. The state in this case should provide financial support.
Women are allowed to work but require their husband's permission. This can be agreed prior to marriage. The other conditions is she must be able to look after her family and it is safe to work. If the women is not married, she will need her family's consent. If the women is not married and has no family, the state should provide and can decide for herself she is allowed to work.
Men cannot work where goods and services provided are specifically targeted at women. Women cannot work where goods and services provided are specifically targeted at men.
Free mixing is permissible as long as it is necessary and everyone covers up.
And everyone lives happily ever after.
Last edited by GuestFellow; 01-09-2012 at 05:40 PM.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
I agree that the man should work and provide for his family. However, I disagree men should be given priority over women for jobs. The person that should get the job should be the most qualified.
Not all women can get married due to variety of reasons. Some need more time while others cannot seem to find the right husband. During that time, they need to make a living to meet their financial commitments. She would be required to support herself and a family.
Yeah I thought of that after, that's why it would only apply to married women verse unmarried men. If a un-married man and un-married woman apply then they would be treated equal.
But if un-married man applies and married woman applies, then give the man priority, because he could need the job to get married and provide for his family where as the woman has a provider if she's married and the husband is doing what he should be doing.
Also could the state not provide for the un-married women? Maybe a tax on all jobs that goes directly to un-married women. Just an idea
A job is a salary, that opens the door for a man to get married, because he will be able to provide for a family then, if men are not working they will not be able to get married, if they are not able to get married then there will be no next generation
A job for a woman is money that she can use to buy stuff, but it wouldn't facilitate marriage unless she agreed to marry a guy without a job and be his provider. Or give her job to the man she plans to marry so that he can use the salary to provide for her.
Last edited by Salahudeen; 01-08-2012 at 11:37 PM.
“Who said that guidance requires there to be someone accompanying you"
Yes, we need female business leaders to deal with female customers.
I wasn't talking about business leaders, I was talking about women in the army and in positions of leadership over a country. Judges? Maybe. But it's still something I would personally discourage, especially in today's world.
As I mentioned in my post earlier I have no problem with women working, as long as men and women do the kind of jobs that is more suited to their gender.
Whenever I go out and see in a hospital, school or other places and see a sister working it really puts a smile to my face to see that she is doing something she enjoys while practising her religion freely. But it's not the same when a woman who works as a builder because her physique resembles a man - big and bulky. The same goes for men who are overly feminine because of their work, it's sickening.
Last edited by 'Abd-al Latif; 01-08-2012 at 11:42 PM.
And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.” [Related by Ibn al-Qayyim in ad-Dâ' wad-Dawâ Fasl 49]
A lot of women are probably looking for jobs in female-dominated places but not getting anywhere because there arent any. Some arent qualified enough to work in professional jobs and this can give those women the chance. They could look at the background of the woman so they know if she really needs the job or not. At least then it is likely to be more fair.
I dont understand why people would think its not a good idea.
Last edited by joyous fairy; 01-08-2012 at 11:32 PM.
I'm asking this personal question just because I believe being married will determine your answer. Married men are far more cautious and see things in a much clearer light, it's why many don't like their wives to work unless its needed.
I don't see how women working is going to 'boost the economy'. Maybe more people will be making money but I fail to see the boost.
And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.” [Related by Ibn al-Qayyim in ad-Dâ' wad-Dawâ Fasl 49]
Taking care of the husband and kids is all well and good but what if the woman is not married and her parents are in perfect health? Both working and the daughter has finished her education.
Women working is not prohibited in Islam. It's where they work that determines what is and isn't forbidden, same goes for men.
And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.” [Related by Ibn al-Qayyim in ad-Dâ' wad-Dawâ Fasl 49]
You guys seem to be missing the fact that NOT ALL WOMEN ARE MARRIED AND HAVE KIDS. NOT ALL WOMEN HAVE MEHRAM.
Edit: Sorry about that I was testing the font :P
Yeah, that's why there would be a special fund for women without mehrams. maybe even a female organisation of women that takes care of women without mehrams. I wish there was some kind of game where you could create your own country and stuff that'd be fun testing all this out lol.
“Who said that guidance requires there to be someone accompanying you"
Do you think most men will be eager to work as a midwife?
I never said it will not work. I said, what if it does not work. For example, you can launch a campaign persuading men to work in health care. However, this may not work because some men would rather work in engineering or accounts. There is no guarantee this will work for several reasons such as failing to pass medical exams, not having enough experience, to expensive or other areas may be seen as more profitable and stable.
I'm just saying, you have no alternative plan. If it does work, great. Now you got to make men specialise in other areas to like law, accounts, actuarial, insurance, financial advise, fashion, marketing, administration, education and I can go on forever.
The point is there will always be some areas dominated by a particular gender. As long as this exists, free mixing at the workplace will exist. Some areas, free mixing will be required more than others.
Is not that a contradiction? A woman gives birth. So a midwife should be a female, not a male, in order to prevent mixing of genders. Hello brother, is it the weekend?
Help me to escape from this existence
I yearn for an answer... can you help me?
I'm drowning in a sea of abused visions and shattered dreams
In somnolent illusion... I'm paralyzed
Yeah, that's why there would be a special fund for women without mehrams. maybe even a female organisation of women that takes care of women without mehrams. I wish there was some kind of game where you could create your own country and stuff that'd be fun testing all this out lol.
Would be? So there isnt one now? Sorry I dont know much about Saudi.
Even so, there would need to be women in that organisation to check if the women are legible ey?
Out of curiosity, in an Islamic state, would it be allowed to tax people? I know the 2.5% would come out for zakat but would it be permissible to apply additional taxes for public services? If not how would public services such as Police force, Fire service, Ambulance/health service be provided?
“Who said that guidance requires there to be someone accompanying you"
Would be? So there isnt one now? Sorry I dont know much about Saudi.
Even so, there would need to be women in that organisation to check if the women are legible ey?
You should make that game
Is a mahram needed for a woman to work? I thought she needed one for marriage and to travel. Can you back this up with a hadeeth to prove this?
And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.” [Related by Ibn al-Qayyim in ad-Dâ' wad-Dawâ Fasl 49]
Why wont it work? Financial incentives, economy is down, everyone is willing to do anything as long there is $ in it. Are there any jobs in the world that men dont do? Except pregnancy. ooh, even that was done by a man.
Would be? So there isnt one now? Sorry I dont know much about Saudi.
Even so, there would need to be women in that organisation to check if the women are legible ey?
You should make that game
No there isn't one now lol, this is all a theory of mine that perhaps looks good on paper but hasn't been tested out in real life I think. Yeah there would need to be women, it would only be a female organisation and only women would be allowed to apply to work for it. Because the nature of the job would involve interacting with women on a daily basis.
Yeah I thought of that after, that's why it would only apply to married women verse unmarried men. If a un-married man and un-married woman apply then they would be treated equal.
But if un-married man applies and married woman applies, then give the man priority, because he could need the job to get married and provide for his family where as the woman has a provider if she's married and the husband is doing what he should be doing.
Also could the state not provide for the un-married women? Maybe a tax on all jobs that goes directly to un-married women. Just an idea
I don't know...I'm a little confused LOL.
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
I wasn't talking about business leaders, I was talking about women in the army and in positions of leadership over a country. Judges, maybe, but it's still something I would personally discourage, especially in todays world.
Well I agree with you there.
As I mentioned in my post earlier I have no problem with women working, as long as men and women do the kind of jobs that is more suited to their gender.
Like what?
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Tragic Typos, are you married?
No.
I'm asking this personal question just because I believe being married will determine your answer. Married men are far more cautious and see things in a much clearer light, it's why many don't like their wives to work unless its needed.
I don't need to be married to see things in a clearer light. BTW, do you have evidence to support what I put in bold?
I don't see how women working is going to 'boost the economy'. Maybe more people will be making money but I fail to see the boost.
Let's assume we have a country. We'll call it Lala Land. 50% of the population are male, 40% is female, and the 10 percent are IB members...
So women make a significant proportion of the population. More people work, the more people the government can tax and the revenue the government gets will be used to provide more and effective social services. More people work, the more people have money to spend. The more people buy goods and services, firms will make profit, demand for goods and services will rise and more jobs will be created to meet this high demand.
^ It's not as simple as that, but I hope you get the idea.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Out of curiosity, in an Islamic state, would it be allowed to tax people? I know the 2.5% would come out for zakat but would it be permissible to apply additional taxes for public services? If not how would public services such as Police force, Fire service, Ambulance/health service be provided?
The Caliphate had taxes even in the old days. I know because the Jews were allowed to live there and practice religion as long as they paid taxes.
Let's assume we have a country. We'll call it Lala Land. 50% of the population are male, 40% is female, and the 10 percent are IB members...
So women make a significant proportion of the population. More people work, the more people the government can tax and the revenue the government gets will be used to provide more and effective social services. More people work, the more people have money to spend. The more people buy goods and services, firms will make profit, demand for goods and services will rise and more jobs will be created to meet this high demand.
^ It's not as simple as that, but I hope you get the idea.
Yes that is very good, if the demand is there I don't see why not, i.e the total population in la la land is 100 which consists of 50 males and 50 females, the number of jobs available in la la land is 100, so there is more than enough jobs to go around for all the men, there is no worry of them not being able to get married because they can't find a job, they all get married because they can all find jobs and they have kids and produce a wonderful generation and the women can fill in the extra 50 jobs that exist in la la land
“Who said that guidance requires there to be someone accompanying you"
I believe my views are fairly consistent...at times. O_o
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
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